Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[Shadesz]

Maybe way off, and bad timing, but has anyone thought to try iron wire coils with an air core? Or, you could even try a small iron coil sourounded by a copper coil. (pull current off both of them?) But then does eddy show his ugly face? hmmm

btw thanks guys. I want to get a good animation of the concept made, but have other things to do atm

[SkyWatcher]

Hi folks, I tried the same pole magnets facing each other with bifilar air coil in canceling mode and of course no voltage to speak of, though when the bifilar is wired in normal mode, i got about 400 millivots spinning by hand, though that could be because magnet distance to coil of one rotor was different. Not sure how to extract that virtual current.

So I decided to test it out as a bedini motor and it worked pretty good, though the resistance of the main coil is a little low, too many amps at 12 volts.

Anyway, when I made my experiments in the past and saw the speed up effect, I used 1/2" diameter steel bolt cores with 1" diameter neos.
Now the bolts have that large hex head sticking out and overlapping somewhat and could have made a difference in the effect being seen more readily.

Meaning if what shadesz says is close to what may be happening, then the large bolt head may help to get the flux to bypass the incoming coil side briefly.
I mean, wasn't this part of the idea Muller used, with the fewer coil windings at the front and the majority at the back so as to minimize lentz at the front core face permanent magnet interaction.
I even watched a video presentation with Peter L. where he showed this method and said how valuable the idea is.
So that's what I did originally, I ran my magnet rotor past the steel bolt end without any coil windings, as the windings were set back a couple inches and the effect was there to be had at lower rpm.
Then I thought to use dual rotors with a magnet rotor on each side of coil/core and got the effect with much more output. Then Realized at some point that with a high enough rotor speed, that only one magnet rotor was needed at the coil/core face.
Though the dual rotor setup, had very nice output and the effect was had at lower rpm.
Here's a cad pic of the setup that gave nice effects and output. It had 18 gauge wire.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

peace love light
tyson

[quantumuppercut]

I just about jumped out of my chair when I read this! Thanks Zooty! As I am just learning the field, some other stuff is fresh on my mind. The way this was worded, and the questions you asked, helped me connect the two principles! Good work!

I think I know the start of how you guys are overcoming lenz and getting acceleration under load. You may have to clean up the idea, but it might get you started...

Magnetic fields, like electricity, are attracted to the path of least resistance. Copper has no effect on a stagnant magnet, but when moving (when inducing a current in the copper) it resists due to lenz law.

So now think of it, as the magnet approaches it begins to charge the copper which starts to kick back. Rod has seen effective results by draining the copper as fast as possible using a dc/dc converter. Perhaps this is because with less charge, means less lenz effect, so it doesn't push back as much (as if the copper was still stagnant).

Now about the type of core. Remember, magnetic fields want to take the easy rout. Copper has a magnetic permeability almost like air. I'm guessing that copper under induced current has an even lower permeability. So, the magnetic field is now having a hard time following its normal path past the magnet.

Now at about this instant it finds the iron core. Iron has a relative permeability of 4,000 μ/μ0 (see Electrical Steel). This is roughly 4,000 times more attractive to the field than air and stagnant copper. The field jumps forward to take a path through the core, this accelerates the rotor. Not only that, but while the field chooses the core over the coil, lenz isn't there!

Then at some point the magnetic field saturates the core. In which case the field returns to the copper and air, and lenz shows his ugly face. BUT this time, if your magnet is just over TDC, lenz is helping you by pushing the magnet as it leaves the coil!

It clicked as I was reading, and when I read the last line Zooty posted I couldn't constrain myself! "Romero said that this effect worked best using Mu metal. What does that tell us?" Mu metal has the highest relative permeability of 50,000 μ/μ0! This would mean the field is even more attracted to it than the iron core.

Why doesn't ferrite work? It's magnetic permeability is 16 to 640 μ/μ0. While better than air and copper, it still isn't enough to get the field to jump the gap.

With my current limited knowledge, a way to test this, and to get this effect at lower speeds, would be to use mu metal and the biggest core possible. (didn't rod start noticing these results when he made the core twice the size of the magnets?) Another thing to try would be to add more iron or mu metal to the back of the core behind the coil. This, in theory, would increase the magnetic capacity of the core and thus allow the magnetic jump to last longer. With a longer lasting magnetic jump you need less time (lower RPM) for the magnet to hit TDC before lenz kicks in.

Man I hope this gets you guys rolling. It could be a breakthrough. It has me rolling (on the floor anyway)

I've been reading this several times now and I think I'm beginning to see the light. lol
I'll be dang if future dynamos runs on this concept. Great job. I'll think about this several times more. lol

[toranarod]

I just about jumped out of my chair when I read this! Thanks Zooty! As I am just learning the field, some other stuff is fresh on my mind. The way this was worded, and the questions you asked, helped me connect the two principles! Good work!

I think I know the start of how you guys are overcoming lenz and getting acceleration under load. You may have to clean up the idea, but it might get you started...

Magnetic fields, like electricity, are attracted to the path of least resistance. Copper has no effect on a stagnant magnet, but when moving (when inducing a current in the copper) it resists due to lenz law.

So now think of it, as the magnet approaches it begins to charge the copper which starts to kick back. Rod has seen effective results by draining the copper as fast as possible using a dc/dc converter. Perhaps this is because with less charge, means less lenz effect, so it doesn't push back as much (as if the copper was still stagnant).

Now about the type of core. Remember, magnetic fields want to take the easy rout. Copper has a magnetic permeability almost like air. I'm guessing that copper under induced current has an even lower permeability. So, the magnetic field is now having a hard time following its normal path past the magnet.

Now at about this instant it finds the iron core. Iron has a relative permeability of 4,000 μ/μ0 (see Electrical Steel). This is roughly 4,000 times more attractive to the field than air and stagnant copper. The field jumps forward to take a path through the core, this accelerates the rotor. Not only that, but while the field chooses the core over the coil, lenz isn't there!

Then at some point the magnetic field saturates the core. In which case the field returns to the copper and air, and lenz shows his ugly face. BUT this time, if your magnet is just over TDC, lenz is helping you by pushing the magnet as it leaves the coil!

It clicked as I was reading, and when I read the last line Zooty posted I couldn't constrain myself! "Romero said that this effect worked best using Mu metal. What does that tell us?" Mu metal has the highest relative permeability of 50,000 μ/μ0! This would mean the field is even more attracted to it than the iron core.

Why doesn't ferrite work? It's magnetic permeability is 16 to 640 μ/μ0. While better than air and copper, it still isn't enough to get the field to jump the gap.

With my current limited knowledge, a way to test this, and to get this effect at lower speeds, would be to use mu metal and the biggest core possible. (didn't rod start noticing these results when he made the core twice the size of the magnets?) Another thing to try would be to add more iron or mu metal to the back of the core behind the coil. This, in theory, would increase the magnetic capacity of the core and thus allow the magnetic jump to last longer. With a longer lasting magnetic jump you need less time (lower RPM) for the magnet to hit TDC before lenz kicks in.

Man I hope this gets you guys rolling. It could be a breakthrough. It has me rolling (on the floor anyway)

great explanation. YES this is another critical part of the design

do you really think mu metal will improve things. I have some I brought for a magnetic shield when i was playing with fixed magnet motors.

Mu metal makes more sense to me than ferrit based on my observations.
wrong or wright we need conclusive proof of theses concept.

[boguslaw]

IMHO There is no anomaly in Lenz law, there is anomalous limited understanding of it. Arrangement and geometry change.

[ewizard]

I have been trying to find away to disprove my results.
I thought what if I was wrong and the increase in speed was due to some anomaly in the drag created by Lenz.
I was thinking if it was the drag friction on the rotor that was some how feeding back to the drive coil increasing speed.
I have tried inducing friction from another source. I mounted a small horse hair paint brush just about the rotor and induced the smallest amount of friction to see if I could in anyway make it increase speed. There was no way this would work. No matter what amount of external drag I applied would increases speed, the slightest touch would slow it down immediately. I have tried many things and looked at every other explanation I can think of for the speed increase. There appears to be only one explanation left, the load on the generator coils are causing a drive force assisting the rotational direction.
It is now conclusive there is anomaly in the Lenz law theory if all your conditions are correct you can draw current from a generator and make it more efficient.
We are now heading in the right direction.

That's great Toranarod! Sounds like you are pinning down the secret to this here. Glad to see you trying the DC-DC converter - looks like the one I got.

[quantumuppercut]

This is good result and expand further understanding. I'm glad you said the acceleration was instantaneous and very noticeable. I wonder if you tried turn the diode around and allow current to flow only when the magnet departing.

[Shadesz]

Now about the type of core. Remember, magnetic fields want to take the easy rout. Copper has a magnetic permeability almost like air. I'm guessing that copper under induced current has an even lower permeability. So, the magnetic field is now having a hard time following its normal path past the magnet.

Magnet should read coil.

[Shadesz]

Back in Time Scene - Back to the Future Movie (1985) - HD - YouTube

[Shadesz]

In simple terms, you are using a highly magnetic permeable core material as...

A FLUX CAPCITOR! (thanks Cody) which stalls lenz's law until somewhere near TDC!

If my theory is correct, a properly designed and tuned generator will need no input once it is up to speed!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Shadesz]

Again, this sounds like an inductance induced magnetic delay in the coil core. It would not make sense to do this with an air core because the RPM would need to be higher creating the need for higher input. Why does iron work so much better? That's what we need to be thinking about if we are to really figure out the inner workings of the effect we see. We should be concentrating on creating the effect at lower RPM's. Romero said that this effect worked best using Mu metal. What does that tell us?

I just about jumped out of my chair when I read this! Thanks Zooty! As I am just learning the field, some other stuff is fresh on my mind. The way this was worded, and the questions you asked, helped me connect the two principles! Good work!

I think I know the start of how you guys are overcoming lenz and getting acceleration under load. You may have to clean up the idea, but it might get you started...

Magnetic fields, like electricity, are attracted to the path of least resistance. Copper has no effect on a stagnant magnet, but when moving (when inducing a current in the copper) it resists due to lenz law.

So now think of it, as the magnet approaches it begins to charge the copper which starts to kick back. Rod has seen effective results by draining the copper as fast as possible using a dc/dc converter. Perhaps this is because with less charge, means less lenz effect, so it doesn't push back as much (as if the copper was still stagnant).

Now about the type of core. Remember, magnetic fields want to take the easy rout. Copper has a magnetic permeability almost like air. I'm guessing that copper under induced current has an even lower permeability. So, the magnetic field is now having a hard time following its normal path past the magnet.

Now at about this instant it finds the iron core. Iron has a relative permeability of 4,000 μ/μ0 (see Electrical Steel). This is roughly 4,000 times more attractive to the field than air and stagnant copper. The field jumps forward to take a path through the core, this accelerates the rotor. Not only that, but while the field chooses the core over the coil, lenz isn't there!

Then at some point the magnetic field saturates the core. In which case the field returns to the copper and air, and lenz shows his ugly face. BUT this time, if your magnet is just over TDC, lenz is helping you by pushing the magnet as it leaves the coil!

It clicked as I was reading, and when I read the last line Zooty posted I couldn't constrain myself! "Romero said that this effect worked best using Mu metal. What does that tell us?" Mu metal has the highest relative permeability of 50,000 μ/μ0! This would mean the field is even more attracted to it than the iron core.

Why doesn't ferrite work? It's magnetic permeability is 16 to 640 μ/μ0. While better than air and copper, it still isn't enough to get the field to jump the gap.

With my current limited knowledge, a way to test this, and to get this effect at lower speeds, would be to use mu metal and the biggest core possible. (didn't rod start noticing these results when he made the core twice the size of the magnets?) Another thing to try would be to add more iron or mu metal to the back of the core behind the coil. This, in theory, would increase the magnetic capacity of the core and thus allow the magnetic jump to last longer. With a longer lasting magnetic jump you need less time (lower RPM) for the magnet to hit TDC before lenz kicks in.

Man I hope this gets you guys rolling. It could be a breakthrough. It has me rolling (on the floor anyway)

[fan1701]

Here is the video I made with cap dump series gen coil acceleration. I was not doing the experiment with Romero in mind but thought it could apply once I looked at it long enough . It raised more questions (for me anyways) and lead to more tinkering which is the point for me. The video was originally recorded with the intent of PM'ing it to someone here and letting them go forward with it. If it helps thats great if not it shows what not to do.

One more thing. I was exhausted from several late nights of experiments plus working all day. A few times it sounds like I am drunk but I'm not just tired. Getting old and cannot stay up anymore like I could when I was younger

http://fan1701.com/stuff/Energetic_files/Gen_coil_in_series.wmv

Sorry no youtube.

al

[fan1701]

Hi Al,

Would like to know if the input power draw remains nearly the same or changes when you apply the gen coil in series as you described? This would be a key point: the input power would not change (or would even decrease) when you apply the gen coil series insertion.

I did take a measurement with and without. I could not see a difference between the two on an analog amp meter . I had placed a diode between the dump switch and the drive battery but was not convinced that it was doing anything. Then I took the measurement and decided the event was so quick that I may not be able to really see it. I have a video I was going to send to someone on this board and let them investigate it . I was extremely tired when I made the video so it is really bad. The setup was just a test wheel I was working with to try many different effects. I will post it if anyone is interested and everyone can laugh all they want. It does show the effect of speed increase although you just have to look and listen for it. I have no meter for reading wheel speed but you don't need it to observe the effect.

Your test reminds me of Ben Thomas tests with the RomeroUK motor-generator setup where Ben also inserted 2 gen coils output in series with the primary input, see his video:
My Romero Boost Circuit - YouTube

Ben wrote: Just showing how I series main power supply and Romero single coil pair power generator supply to demonstrate boost and increase in RPM and reduction of Lenz.
14VDC in about 2100 rpm, 14VDC in with load on generator but no boost, about 1800 rpm, boost in motor generator sees about 19.5 VDC and runs 2500 RPM +.
Below about 10VDC on Motor, Lenz is greater in generator and just loads down rotor, above that you start to see the Generator/boost effect kick in! On my motor best combination is about 14.000VDC on main power supply.


So I believe this series method needs further investigation because it seems to give some extra without much penalty... thanks for bringing this up.

Gyula

I was thinking that the energy is already in the system in the case of what I was doing . You are simply placing an impedance (gen coil) between the cap and the return to source or where ever you are sending the cap dump energy to and forcing it to turn the wheel faster along the way. Made me immediately think of Romero system. With the complexity of Romero's coil arrangement I thought that some brilliant experimenter that is well versed in that system may devise something from it perhaps helping solve the Romero mystery one way or another. If nothing else it is worth sharing. May help on something else.

I will go load the video on my server and post it in a bit. Also going to go check out the Ben Thomas video you posted. Thanks.

al

[MonsieurM]

Looks like the Smith coil is spreading

Here's another way to use it

indeed...

[Steve220]

Wouldn't using an electro magnet double your input though?

No, I don't think so. An automotive alternator is a good example. Only a small current is required to maintain a magnetic field in the rotor. The output of the stator windings is many times higher than the small amount of current to maintain the required magnetic field of the rotor. The power from the alternator comes from the belt driven shaft, not from the magnetic field of the rotor.

In the case of a generator that would have switched coils on the rotor, even less current to power the coils would be needed as the coils are only on during the approach to the generator coils core and switched off after passing TDC of the coils core. If the rotor coils and generator coils were staggered so that a minimum of coils would be switched on at the same time, even less current would be required.

If the result of such a operation of the generator produced a excess of power created due to the cancelation of rotor magnet drag after TDC of the generator coils, the extra power, would seem to be more than enough to operate the rotor coils even though the generator coils only would produce power through one half of the passing of the rotor magnets.

However this would allow more generator coils to be used than you could have used otherwise.

Steve