Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[minoly]

This too has been my thinking all along, however, that is kind of a big "if"
if they have the same area...

Now, I think I can get more winds with higher gauge wire in parallel in a given area with the same resistance/impedance, than I can with just one lower gauge wire with the same resistance/impedance.
Maybe if someone can give me the gauge and length - I would need to match
the above 1.9ohm. I'll see how many turns fit on the spool...
Patrick

This fall right in line with something John K. just said that JB just said "To get the power out you have to go very low on the impedance and high on the inductance."

Patrick

[quantumuppercut]

Increasing the rotor diameter is correct, and would increase the speed of the magnet, but I do not think that the number of magnets on the rotor would affect the acceleration effect at all.

I think I see your viewpoint. I also see there is a flux change and frequency associated. Flux change depends on the magnet passing speed and frequency depends on both. My opinion is that flux change is what important in the process. I also suppose there are two ways to beat Lenz. One is by brute force (high RPM) and one by passive component ( series cap) . There could be other genuine way like activate at high peak to minimize low flux change etc... But like they said, A bird in a hand is worth two in a bush. lol I think the meaning is go what we are sure of instead of something far fetched. We probably use brute force first because that's what we are sure of .

Yahoo! Video Detail for GEICO commercial "Bird in Hand"

[Xenomorph]

Increasing the rotor diameter is correct, and would increase the speed of the magnet, but I do not think that the number of magnets on the rotor would affect the acceleration effect at all.

Only a low RPM test could prove that.
Romero was only running at around 1500 RPM (@200mm rotor diameter).
But in regards to weird things like his bucking coils and other aspects of his device there must have been more involved than beating Lenz. (30 W o/p)

[qvision]

Some helpful maths ...

These calculations are used in wind turbines and may be of some use.

To calculate the average (rectified) DC voltage from a set of coils :

Average DC voltage = A x B x N x ((RPM x 2.72)/30)-1.4

Where :

A = area of magnet face, in square metres.

B = flux density of one magnet, in Tesla.

N = turns per coil x coils in series (so turns per phase)

The 2.72 is because 3-phase is assumed, your average output is raised by a factor of 1.73, plus the peak is higher than the average by 1.57.

To find N, the number of coil turns needed to achieve a specific RPM :

N = (DCV + 1.4) x 11/(A x B x RPM)

This is the total number of turns per phase so would have to be divided by the number of coils per phase to get the number of turns per coil.

Hope these are helpful.

[erfinder]

@all
Do not confuse this with Bedini motors, those are "energizers" that charge batteries which only seem to work for those people close to Bedini, It was a shame that most people spent much time on those things, including me, which doesn't do anything practical. Nevertheless on those early years thought me some coil winding and some useful circuits.

We are limited only by our imagination....

The SG circuit is one of the most interesting circuits I have ever had the chance to experiment with...Don't knock it till you have exhausted your natural resource....

your imagination....

Regards

[elias]

Well yes they are 2 different things but, a rotor going 4,000 rpm's with 8 magnets and a rotor going 8,000 rpm's with 4 magnets, are both going the same speed. Most of us have a lazer tach and this is a simple method to use to see if you have enough rotor speed or magnet speed to be at the thresh hold to over come lenz drag.

Increasing the rotor diameter is correct, and would increase the speed of the magnet, but I do not think that the number of magnets on the rotor would affect the acceleration effect at all.

@all
Do not confuse this with Bedini motors, those are "energizers" that charge batteries which only seem to work for those people close to Bedini, It was a shame that most people spent much time on those things, including me, which doesn't do anything practical. Nevertheless on those early years thought me some coil winding and some useful circuits.

[marxist]

speed mixed up with frequency

....a rotor going 4,000 rpm's with 8 magnets and a rotor going 8,000 rpm's with 4 magnets, are both going the same speed ...

When the rotors in these two scenarios have the same diameter, they will both produce the same frequency.
But in that case it is not correct to state that "both rotors are going the same speed", because speed is 'displacement per unit of time'.

[quantumuppercut]

Understanding the Orbo principle by JL Naudin

"The patent below is very interesting because it says that in a common toroidal coil, each layer is equal to a "one turn coil" whose axis is parallel to the axis of the toroid. So, one layer of toroidal coil is equal to a flat coil of one turn and thus it can tap or produce EMF outside the torus. So, to counter this interference effect, the only thing to do is , for each layer of the toroidal coil, to wound a one turn flat coil along the circumference of the toroid so as to produce a magnetic field which nullify the virtual one turn coil created by each layer of the toroidal coil... This is very simple and a very important thing to do for canceling the weak CEMF induced in the toroid by the motion of the magnet and this is one of the most important key of the Orbo motor... "

I would say they implied the twisting of conductor can contribute to inductance. Besides, multi-strands counter skin effect. If i understand correctly, skin effect depends on the rate of current change. Although bigger wire could have the same cross section area to the combined strands, the surface area is far less.

[Mark]

Wouldn't the speed at which magnets pass the coil and number of times a magnet passes the coil be very different things? Both may play a part but I think it is important to not confuse the two. Especially if 'retarded potential' is truly what is causing them to overcome Lenz Law. (Sorry for the wiki link, as I am just learning)

Well yes they are 2 different things but, a rotor going 4,000 rpm's with 8 magnets and a rotor going 8,000 rpm's with 4 magnets, are both going the same speed. Most of us have a lazer tach and this is a simple method to use to see if you have enough rotor speed or magnet speed to be at the thresh hold to over come lenz drag.

[minoly]

Hey Patrick,
i see no difference concerning the resistance between larger AWG and the stranded version.
If they have the same area, they should have the same resistance. Some people are of the opinion that the strands offer an advantage over a single wire, but it was evident that they did not know how to correctly calculate the total wire area out of the individual strands.

Since the inductance is relative to the (total) wire diameter, in your test the inductance of the stranded version was lower.

The inter-winding capacitance is bigger and will however change the capacitive characteristics of the stranded wire coil.

This too has been my thinking all along, however, that is kind of a big "if"
if they have the same area...

Now, I think I can get more winds with higher gauge wire in parallel in a given area with the same resistance/impedance, than I can with just one lower gauge wire with the same resistance/impedance.
Maybe if someone can give me the gauge and length - I would need to match
the above 1.9ohm. I'll see how many turns fit on the spool...
Patrick

[Xenomorph]

Wouldn't the speed at which magnets pass the coil and number of times a magnet passes the coil be very different things? Both may play a part but I think it is important to not confuse the two. Especially if 'retarded potential' is truly what is causing them to overcome Lenz Law. (Sorry for the wiki link, as I am just learning)

You have a point, somewhere buried in the literature there is probably a formula that includes both magnet passing speed and frequency in regards to the induced EMF and the power achieved in the generator circuit, which can then be used to compare different rotor diameters' power results.

[Shadesz]

Spreadsheet to compare speed of no coil, non loaded coil, and loaded coil

Figured I would throw it out there and let people use it if they want...
NOTE! I changed the extension to .doc to upload it, change it to .xls before opening

[Shadesz]

Important to make sure...

Wouldn't the speed at which magnets pass the coil and number of times a magnet passes the coil be very different things? Both may play a part but I think it is important to not confuse the two. Especially if 'retarded potential' is truly what is causing them to overcome Lenz Law. (Sorry for the wiki link, as I am just learning)

[Joit]

I think its easier to look at it in rpm's. Rod's device at 4000 rpm with 8 magnets has 32,000 magnet passes per minute. So a 4 magnet rotor would have to turn 32,000/4= 8,000 rpm.

You might be right on that.
I had something strange happend to me with a Bedini SG.
When i used 4 Magnets, and standard Trigger/Drive Coil, the Rotor did turn faster,
but at close same Frequency at the Base, as now with 6.
As i add more Magnets, the Rotor turns slower, but have still the same Consumption and Frequency,
and both Rotors had the same Dimensions (CD-Disc),
but i could figure also, that it might have to do with the Distance at the Magnets, related to the thickness of the Wire, (Frequency) and the Power Input (Watts)
but that is only a Guess.

[Xenomorph]

I think I remember JB noting that it had to do with lowering the impedance.
This is the effect of the extra winds - paralleled/series-ed is having on the "Muller/Romero" coils.
math:
1 long wind of 30awg on my spool is 170ohms - .717H
10 filer same spool same wire in parallel = 1.9ohms - .35mH

same total length of wire on each.

question I have - why is this different than just winding a larger awg wire on the spool, one that has the same ohms and same mH? do the extra winds make the difference? extra winds with low impedance...

Patrick

Hey Patrick,
i see no difference concerning the resistance between larger AWG and the stranded version.
If they have the same area, they should have the same resistance. Some people are of the opinion that the strands offer an advantage over a single wire, but it was evident that they did not know how to correctly calculate the total wire area out of the individual strands.

Since the inductance is relative to the (total) wire diameter, in your test the inductance of the stranded version was lower.

The inter-winding capacitance is bigger and will however change the capacitive characteristics of the stranded wire coil.