Motor Generators

[BroMikey]

........ only differences between the two machines yet the voltage output of the coils is 30-40 volts LESS with the new machine.

As everything else is EXACTLY the same, and I use the same two coils in both machines, I have to believe it is one of those two differences that is responsible for the issue.

Now it COULD be that the magnets on the new rotor were N42 instead of the N52 that were ordered, and I KNOW the magnets on the old machine were N52.

That is something I will have to check with a gauss meter when the old machine gets here.

Other than that, I am stumped.

Good thinking. The n42 3/4" x 1" = 65lb pull force n52 = 75lb this translates to a greater gap and you will need to reduce the 1mm gap down to say half mm.

A 1" x 1" n52 = 115lbs

your old 2" x 1/4" = 77lb @n52

[BroMikey]

This is a photo which I posted on citfta's thread

Your generator design is atypical of commercial conversion machinery,

FALSE

......the principles apply

FALSE

.......if you act civil.
FALSE

bi

YOU DON'T KNOW THE MEANING OF CIVIL, BUT WHAT ELSE IS NEW?

YOU AND YOUR KIND ONLY HAVE EYES FOR THE STONE-AGE MOTOR DESIGNS PUT FORTH BY OUR FORE FATHERS (GREAT, GREAT, GREAT GRAND PAPPY)

YOU ARE AS YOU WILL ALWAYS REMAIN, COMPLETELY BLIND. THAT OLD MOTOR DESIGN ONLY APPLIES TO THAT TYPE OF CONTINUOUS CORE ASSEMBLY AND TOOK 230 YEARS TO EXPLAIN. THE OLD WAY DOES NOT WORK OUT IN THE MATH. ALL THAT YOU UNDERSTAND ABOUT CONVENTIONAL GENERATING IS NULL AND VOID. THIS MAKES ALL OF YOUR COMMENT NON APPLICABLE. THIS MAKES YOU IRRELEVANT REGARDLESS OF WHAT ALL OF YOUR LAP DOG BACK SLAPPERS TELL YOU. YOU HAVE MISSED THE BOAT AGAIN.

A COMMON CORE DESIGN IS OLD AND TOTALLY YOU.

[Turion]

Wow, so you built something. Ever finish it?

Can you do the math? How many magnets go past each coil on my machine? It sure isn't 4. Therefore it is not a four pole machine. Just because you can divide six coils into 24 magnets means nothing. That's just you, twisting words as usual. In a standard generator or motor design there are fixed poles on the stator. And you count those "fixed positions." With this machine there are not, and you know it. You are trying to apply concepts you MAY understand to a machine you know nothing about. And it shows.

Again you ignore the fact that you knew NOTHING about how "coil span" applies to this machine. You were WRONG about the 7th grade science experiment, so just avoid it altogether.

I have no intention of EVER acting civil toward someone who called me a liar, a fraud and a con man. Especially when he continues to prove he has no clue what he is talking about and just throws terms out there to try and impress people or confuse the issues at hand, and ignore the mistakes he makes and lies he tells when confronted with them.

The old machine and the new machine have the same size rotors. The geometry of the coil relationship to the rotor is exactly the same. The NEW machine has less air gap between coil cores and rotor magnets, and more magnets on the rotor. That is essentially the only differences between the two machines yet the voltage output of the coils is 30-40 volts LESS with the new machine. As everything else is EXACTLY the same, and I use the same two coils in both machines, I have to believe it is one of those two differences that is responsible for the issue. Now it COULD be that the magnets on the new rotor were N42 instead of the N52 that were ordered, and I KNOW the magnets on the old machine were N52. That is something I will have to check with a gauss meter when the old machine gets here. Other than that, I am stumped.

[bistander]

bi,
There is nothing to be civil about. You demonstrate your total lack of understanding of my machine by calling it a “four pole for every coil” machine, yet still believe you know more about what it can do than I do. But I notice you avoided bringing that up. As usual. Ignore EVERYTHING you get wrong. You are unable to apply “coil span” to my design, a term YOU brought up. Perhaps you can tell us where I would measure on my machine to determine “coil span overlays pole pitch”. Until you can, it would appear you are just throwing terms around to appear important.

I build things on my bench. I make changes to see what will happen. I accumulate data. I make mistakes. It as called research. You have yet to build the 7th grade science experiment I showed and at least 8 others have now replicated that shows what I say is true. You dismiss it by saying I couldn’t hold the magnet steady enough with my hand. On my big machine the magnets do the same thing and they screw in and out on threaded rods. You ignore the truth and facts to focus only on those arguments you think you can win.

Turion,
image_17901 (1).jpg

This is a photo which I posted on citfta's thread long ago during a discussion with Ufopolitics. You may have missed it. There were a few others of my bench on that post. This is an armature which I designed and wound by hand about half way complete. It is about 7 inch diameter with 5 inch long core. 65 slots, 65 commutator bars, 4 pole wave wound, simplex, retrogressive. Three turns per coil of AWG #10. It was the first prototype of a clean sheet design and performed within acceptable limits requiring no mods. Since you watched that video, I assume, on coil pitch and span, perhaps you can appreciate that I am familiar with the concepts.

Your generator design is atypical of commercial conversion machinery, but the principles apply. 4 poles per coil referred to one side of your rotor having 24 magnets, poles, facing 6 coils, hence 4 poles for each coil. I can relate the other details if you act civil.
bi

[Turion]

bi,
There is nothing to be civil about. You demonstrate your total lack of understanding of my machine by calling it a “four pole for every coil” machine, yet still believe you know more about what it can do than I do. But I notice you avoided bringing that up. As usual. Ignore EVERYTHING you get wrong. You are unable to apply “coil span” to my design, a term YOU brought up. Perhaps you can tell us where I would measure on my machine to determine “coil span overlays pole pitch”. Until you can, it would appear you are just throwing terms around to appear important.

I build things on my bench. I make changes to see what will happen. I accumulate data. I make mistakes. It as called research. You have yet to build the 7th grade science experiment I showed and at least 8 others have now replicated that shows what I say is true. You dismiss it by saying I couldn’t hold the magnet steady enough with my hand. On my big machine the magnets do the same thing and they screw in and out on threaded rods. You ignore the truth and facts to focus only on those arguments you think you can win.

[BroMikey]

bro,

All my coils are wound with #23 AWG.

I have gone through several sets of these coils because when run too long, the insulation will melt off and the windings will short out.

Which is why I have been searching for a new core material.

Between now and next Saturday I am cleaning up my shop and getting things organized. Next Saturday the guys from Sacramento are coming out, bringing the old clunker machine, and helping me set it up. We are going to run the coils we have on both the old clunker and the new machine to compare results so we can make some decisions


You would expect that someone who understands my machine SO WELL that they are able to evaluate how well it works would know how many poles it has, wouldn't you?

And how would you even figure coil span in THIS machine?
.

Come on Dave gimme a break there is no coil span - pitch in our machines, you know that.

What I want to hear is that when the younger men show up next Sat that you are making sure they get a greater amount of suds. Don't let the old guys run out the pool. When I was young I could rink a case of beer on the weekend

I'm to old for that now but let's not forget how fun it is for your guys. You sit in a chair and watch them rejoice.

[BroMikey]

Hi Turion,
......... stop acting like a child and return to civility on the bistander thread.
bi

This is not civility on your part. A projection onto others of your own demons. the light is blinding

[bistander]

bro,

All my coils are wound with #23 AWG. All have as close to 3,000 feet of wire on them as I can get in different configurations.

All my coils are wound on a bobbin (except the single extended core coil) that has a 3 1/2" flange. A 3/4 arbor hole. A traverse Length of 3" and a 1" barrel.

http://www.norticinc.com/plastic-spool/


Currently I have 12 coils that have iron cores. These are from my old clunker machine and are the "version" of the coils I have used for YEARS. I have gone through several sets of these coils because when run too long, the insulation will melt off and the windings will short out. Which is why I have been searching for a new core material.

They are all wound with 12 strands (so 250 feet each) and each have four strands connected in series. Which means 3 wires coming off the coil, each with four strands of 250 feet connected in series to equal 3,000 feet of wire on the coil.

I have 12 coils with the permalloy cores. They each have 3 strands of 1,000 feet in parallel
I have 1 coil with a 4" traverse length that has a permalloy core. This is my extended coil that is producing so little. It is wound with 3 strands @ 1,300 feet each.


My guys in Sacramento have several test coils wound with different wire lengths that add up to 3,000 feet of wire on the coil. The all have the permalloy core. THESE WERE THE COILS WE TESTED
1 coil with 3 strands of 1,000 feet

1 coil with six strands of 500 feet (groups of two in series so that 3 wires come off the coil)

1 coil with 12 strands of 250 feet (groups of four in series so that 3 wires come off the coil)

1 coil with 24 strands of 125 feet. (groups of 8 in series so that 3 wires come off the coil)

Of these coils the one with six strands of 500 feet, with groups of two put in series, produced the most power. But NOT that much more than a simple three strand coil, which is much less work.

Between now and next Saturday I am cleaning up my shop and getting things organized. Next Saturday the guys from Sacramento are coming out, bringing the old clunker machine, and helping me set it up. We are going to run the coils we have on both the old clunker and the new machine to compare results so we can make some decisions.


Of note: Today I ran the machine with two of the New coils that have the permalloy cores and three strands of 1,000 feet on them. On the OLD machine this exact same coil would cause speed up under load of the prime mover and decreased amp draw at 2840 RPM. I was thinking that number was 2800, but that was for the iron core coil with 3 strands of 1,000 ft. So I went the wrong direction with my testing.

I reduced the input voltage and measured at 2750 RPM, 2700, 2650, etc. all the way down to 500 RPM, and was unable to achieve speed up under load at ANY RPM. So tomorrow I will start at 2800 and raise the rpm to see what the results are going in that direction. Hopefully I will figure it out.


Note: "Coil span overlays pole pitch" do not apply to figuring out the output of generator coils on my (LOL) "4 pole machine". (I did not realize that a machine with 24 magnets on the rotor had 4 poles per coil. You learn something new every day.) You would expect that someone who understands my machine SO WELL that they are able to evaluate how well it works would know how many poles it has, wouldn't you? And how would you even figure coil span in THIS machine?

If you want to know what these terms mean and what they DO apply to... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjlxcKXOR78

It is my understanding that the DESIGN factors that determine the output of the coil are number of turns, strength of the magnetic field and rotational speed of the rotor. All other factors of note would impact one of these three. For example, core material choice or diameter (In this particular design) affects magnetic field strength.

Hi Turion,
It appears that you actually did some research and figure by watching a video you fully understand what I was referring to. You missed my point. But it does look like you picked up a couple of design facts. I'll elaborate if you stop acting like a child and return to civility on the bistander thread. I'm not 100% certain that suspected coil span problem is the culprit, but if so, you'll never overcome it with your present approach.
bi

[Turion]

bro,

All my coils are wound with #23 AWG. All have as close to 3,000 feet of wire on them as I can get in different configurations.

All my coils are wound on a bobbin (except the single extended core coil) that has a 3 1/2" flange. A 3/4 arbor hole. A traverse Length of 3" and a 1" barrel.

http://www.norticinc.com/plastic-spool/


Currently I have 12 coils that have iron cores. These are from my old clunker machine and are the "version" of the coils I have used for YEARS. I have gone through several sets of these coils because when run too long, the insulation will melt off and the windings will short out. Which is why I have been searching for a new core material.

They are all wound with 12 strands (so 250 feet each) and each have four strands connected in series. Which means 3 wires coming off the coil, each with four strands of 250 feet connected in series to equal 3,000 feet of wire on the coil.

I have 12 coils with the permalloy cores. They each have 3 strands of 1,000 feet in parallel
I have 1 coil with a 4" traverse length that has a permalloy core. This is my extended coil that is producing so little. It is wound with 3 strands @ 1,300 feet each.


My guys in Sacramento have several test coils wound with different wire lengths that add up to 3,000 feet of wire on the coil. The all have the permalloy core. THESE WERE THE COILS WE TESTED
1 coil with 3 strands of 1,000 feet

1 coil with six strands of 500 feet (groups of two in series so that 3 wires come off the coil)

1 coil with 12 strands of 250 feet (groups of four in series so that 3 wires come off the coil)

1 coil with 24 strands of 125 feet. (groups of 8 in series so that 3 wires come off the coil)

Of these coils the one with six strands of 500 feet, with groups of two put in series, produced the most power. But NOT that much more than a simple three strand coil, which is much less work.

Between now and next Saturday I am cleaning up my shop and getting things organized. Next Saturday the guys from Sacramento are coming out, bringing the old clunker machine, and helping me set it up. We are going to run the coils we have on both the old clunker and the new machine to compare results so we can make some decisions.


Of note: Today I ran the machine with two of the New coils that have the permalloy cores and three strands of 1,000 feet on them. On the OLD machine this exact same coil would cause speed up under load of the prime mover and decreased amp draw at 2840 RPM. I was thinking that number was 2800, but that was for the iron core coil with 3 strands of 1,000 ft. So I went the wrong direction with my testing.

I reduced the input voltage and measured at 2750 RPM, 2700, 2650, etc. all the way down to 500 RPM, and was unable to achieve speed up under load at ANY RPM. So tomorrow I will start at 2800 and raise the rpm to see what the results are going in that direction. Hopefully I will figure it out.


Note: "Coil span overlays pole pitch" do not apply to figuring out the output of generator coils on my (LOL) "4 pole machine". (I did not realize that a machine with 24 magnets on the rotor had 4 poles per coil. You learn something new every day.) You would expect that someone who understands my machine SO WELL that they are able to evaluate how well it works would know how many poles it has, wouldn't you? And how would you even figure coil span in THIS machine?

If you want to know what these terms mean and what they DO apply to... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjlxcKXOR78

It is my understanding that the DESIGN factors that determine the output of the coil are number of turns, strength of the magnetic field and rotational speed of the rotor. All other factors of note would impact one of these three. For example, core material choice or diameter (In this particular design) affects magnetic field strength.

[BroMikey]

[BroMikey]

Here is a video on magnetic neutralization, free lectric to boot

[BroMikey]

Gap power video's

http://www.gap-power.com/GAP-POWER-M...21%201K562.mp4

http://www.gap-power.com/GAP-POWER-M...%205-27-21.mp4

http://www.gap-power.com/GAP-POWER-M...ectifier-A.mp4

http://www.gap-power.com/GAP-POWER-M.../TEST%2046.mp4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCjD...cjOC-&index=12

[BroMikey]

It is good to hear you are thinking about this problem. I may not be easy to solve. Our spewing nemesis is trying to disrupt the continuity of a kindly exchange with the goal of poisoning my thread. He goes after the stink of it all (spookie dookie) and must be eliminated.

Anyway I'll finish him later.

The obvious choice for you is to try shorter coils because the longer coil impedance is so great at those frequencies that power (assuming the gap is 1mm) has dropped. You are now in the same general zone as Thane, as he runs 1500hz. Now why have I brought this up? The reason is clear, Thane was struggling to find a coil that produces a good amount of power and has used a shorter coil. He use to use those big balls of wire like you use but explained that he could not get the amps.

Try 500 ft and put them all in parallel. This will dramatically change the impedance. You are not running 1500hz like Thane, you are running a little lower (1100hz)

Earlier this week you mentioned that you needed to rewind the 12 strand coil? You must have lost all of your old coils or they don't fit the new machine. Or pull 12 magnets on each bank or set the gap to under 3/16"

I thought I posted these results here, but possibly not.
Testing of three different individual coils.

Iron core 35 v @ .4 amps
A pair of these coils produced .8 amps at 96 volts across the load. I am having a hard time understanding why the same pair produces 130-140 volts across the load at 1.5 -1.9 amps on the older machine. The only difference is 12 magnets on the old rotor rather than 24. Same size rotor. Same RPM. Same strength of magnets.

New permalloy core 33 v @ .4 amps
A pair produces about the SAME as a pair of iron core coils, but without the heat.

Extended permalloy core 14 v @ .25 amps. Still working on trying to get it to go farther in. Lots to do and no time to do it. Trying to understand the different results on the two different machines.

HI Turion,

There I was trying to help. Offer is still there. Got a scope?
bi

Not to be trusted. Bye is poison.

[bistander]

I thought I posted these results here, but possibly not.
Testing of three different individual coils.

Iron core 35 v @ .4 amps
A pair of these coils produced .8 amps at 96 volts across the load. I am having a hard time understanding why the same pair produces 130-140 volts across the load at 1.5 -1.9 amps on the older machine. The only difference is 12 magnets on the old rotor rather than 24. Same size rotor. Same RPM. Same strength of magnets.

New permalloy core 33 v @ .4 amps
A pair produces about the SAME as a pair of iron core coils, but without the heat.

Extended permalloy core 14 v @ .25 amps. Still working on trying to get it to go farther in. Lots to do and no time to do it. Trying to understand the different results on the two different machines.

Trying to understand the different results on the two different machines.

Hi Turion,

Be interesting to know coil span overlays pole pitch. Let's see, you have 4 poles per coil. Hmmm. Core and magnet diameters are what, 3/4 inch? Don't have the core circle diameter or the outer coil diameter. What would be really helpful is a waveform of generated voltage. Got a scope? But you're not big on sharing data or doing a simple requested test.

Post up what you will. I'll be watching. Good luck.
bi

HI Turion,

There I was trying to help. Offer is still there. Got a scope?
bi

[Turion]

I thought I posted these results here, but possibly not.
Testing of three different individual coils.

Iron core 35 v @ .4 amps
A pair of these coils produced .8 amps at 96 volts across the load. I am having a hard time understanding why the same pair produces 130-140 volts across the load at 1.5 -1.9 amps on the older machine. The only difference is 12 magnets on the old rotor rather than 24. Same size rotor. Same RPM. Same strength of magnets.

New permalloy core 33 v @ .4 amps
A pair produces about the SAME as a pair of iron core coils, but without the heat.

Extended permalloy core 14 v @ .25 amps. Still working on trying to get it to go farther in. Lots to do and no time to do it. Trying to understand the different results on the two different machines.