Water Sparkplug

[redrichie]

RC engines

This is a spark system for a minature radio control engine


YouTube - Super Ignition system for benzene engine new technology and design (LCXi)

Thought some of the technology may be of interest here. Its just that I cant find anymore info on it

I have been giving these engines some thought. You can get them in a "nitro" engine or a gasoline, and up to 5-6 HP! LOts of RPM's. Great power for the size thats for sure. Seems like if one could get one of these little guys to run well on HHO then it will definately turn a small generator of some type to run a load or produce more HHO through the electrolizer. Small scale, and the ignition systems are probably a breeze compared to some others that some are trying to work on. just a thought

[gmeast]

videos of my water spark plug work

Hi all,

I just wanted to share an unsettling experience I just had with eBay.

I have compiled two DVD discs, one is a DVD with a menu and all and a DVD data disc of my work. I placed them on eBy for $20.00 for the two-disc set, free shipping, etc. But this morning I was notified that I am in violation of copyright infringement under their policy and my listing was removed. If I do it again then my account will be closed. Holy crap ! One of the schematics shown in the listing photos shows the words "Copyright" and my full name.

Anyone know anything about eBay bullying people like this? What kind of case do I have? I can produce the camera and all of the raw footage from which the video was compiled plus the drawings, schematics, etc. What a kick in the groin.

Thanks for listening,

Greg

[Aaron]

positive spike and gain

Lamare,

The hv from the ignition coil is only negative if it comes out on the collapse. It Is positive if it comes on on the punch up.

Here is the gain by mixing high current and high voltage from two different sources - it is no different than the primary operating principle of the Ed Gray circuits.

[turbotrana]

This is a spark system for a minature radio control engine


YouTube - Super Ignition system for benzene engine new technology and design (LCXi)

Thought some of the technology may be of interest here. Its just that I cant find anymore info on it

[lamare]

So, there appears to be more to it, and this is what may be really happening:

Ahem, what I wrote is rubbish. I had a party the other night, it looks like I wasn't all that awake this afternoon....

The way this is drawn, you get a *negative* high voltage at the HV winding, not a *positive one*. So, the story should be something like this:

1. Close S1 to discharge C1 into the primary of ignition coil
2. Magnetic field builds up in ignition coil; HV winding will be at a positive voltage, relatively close to the supply voltage
3. Open S1 to create BEMF pulse
4. HV winding outputs high *negative* *voltage* pulse
5. The cap sees high *negative* *voltage*, to which it is more then happy to discharge into across the diode.
6. Cap starts discharging with high current towards the high negative winding
7. As soon as the electrons start moving, an magnetic field is building up, because there's always some self-inductance in every wire, which does count with such high voltages.
8. The arc fires, which means that the high-negative voltage is vanished and discharged within a matter of nanoseconds. At that moment, the high-current discharge from the cap has already built up a significant magnetic field because of the self-inductance of the wires (and/or the load), which forces the discharge current to continue for a while in the direction it was already moving, even though the event that caused this (the high negative voltage) is way gone.
9. This current has no way to go, but to discharge trough the arc, in the *opposite* direction as the HV discharge that occured just nano-seconds before.

In other words: the moment the switch is opened, the coil creates a high negative potential for the cap to discharge to. However, before the cap gets a chance to actually do that, the negative potential is gone. But, in the meantime, a magnetic field has already been built up, which forces an additional discharge from the cap trough the arc.

[wes77]

Plasma spark ignition systems (currently on market)

This company currently produces plasma spark ignition systems for various vehicles. They are in production and orderable from what I can tell. Not sure if it is the same intensity as the circuits used here, but worth looking at for sure if you are interested in firestorm and plasma ignition systems either for improved gasoline engine efficiency or water spark.


OKADAPROJECTS | PRODUCTS | PLASMA BOOSTER | PLASMA DIRECT | PLASMA SPARK | PLASMA GROUND | PLASMA LIFT | PLASMA QUAD PAC

[lamare]

The A picture is my simple drawing of the bare bones water spark plug effect method. When the capacitor C1 discharges, it is 100% isolated from both terminals from any power supply. The ONLY input into the coil for the effect is whatever is charged into the cap. Nothing more, nothing less.

It is possible that adding high current pulse from a power supply increases the effect, but lets leave that as a separate issue to deal with because it is a fact that the basic effect IS able to be reproduced over and over with only a charged up photo flash capacitor.

The idea I see expressed as to why the effect happens is this:

1. Close S1 to discharge C1 into the primary of ignition coil
2. HV winding outputs HV pulse to the spark plug causing an arc.
3. The arc gives enough of a conductive pathway for whatever is left in the capacitor to discharge over the gap therefore adding a low voltage pulse to the high voltage pulse.

I think I'm finally beginning to understand how this stuff works. I think Aaron is pretty close here, but this does not explain why you would get an energy gain. This is why I may have been a bit critical towards Aaron in the past .

What I think may be happening, is far fom a "simple" LV discharge from "whatever is left in the capacitor" trough the arc. If that were the case, how could you ever see excess energy??

So, there appears to be more to it, and this is what may be really happening:

1. Close S1 to discharge C1 into the primary of ignition coil
2. HV winding outputs HV pulse
3. HV pulse creates an electric field, expanding with the speed of light, following the wire towards the spark plug
4. Electric field induces a current inside the wire, building up charge at the spark plug
5. An arc fires in the spark plug, causing a momentarily, high voltage, high current trough the wire
6. This creates a sharp magnetic field pulse around the wire, trying to maintain this high current
7. Magnetic pulse travels back along the wire towards the coil and then also along the other wire to the diode. There, it causes additional electrons to be "sucked" trough the diode directly from the cap. These somehow travel/tunnel trough the diode, despite of it's reverse bias, exciting the diode at HV, giving HV as well as high current!

In other words: the electric field induces a current, which induces a magnetic field, which on it's turn lifts the electrons from the cap across the potential barriere in the diode. This whole process somehow, somewhere draws in ZPE and converts that into a high voltage, high current discharge trough the arc.

[wes77]

sure

Yes, I think we are discussing two different things. Here are some links to the things I am referring to. Like I mentioned, I do not know if the pump I drew up would work, but it does seem like the technology could be adapted and that it has been developed to some degree in industry from what I have read.

YouTube - Panacea-BOCAF Water Spark Plug (3 of 3) (watch from 1:50 min to 3:00 minutes)

http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Water%20Spark%20Plug.pdf

(pages 125-134)

Water atomisation by high magnitude electrical impulses: A study.

Opportunities in High-Velocity Forming of Sheet Metal

Electrohydraulic - Sheetmetal Forming - Engineer's Handbook

There is another good document (I can't find) I had printed out and that is where I got the circuit for the pump design I posted. It was simple and generic with no component values, but had all the necessary items (I believe) so I included it on the drawing. If I find it, I will post a link to that as well.

-Wes

[Xack]

metal forming information.

but... I believe from what I've read on electrohydraulic metal forming that the water simply reacts to the spark (and is possibly atomized) resulting in a shock wave that can be up to 156% efficient according to a figure I read regarding a mining institutes findings (their measurements).

Measured input electrical energy was less than measured output kinetic. The water just expands instantaneously and forms the sheet metal against a die in an enclosed cavity similarly to explosive forming. There is no residual pressure or heat. Also in another test I saw where experiments were perfoemted in a clear housing, no fog or vapor was visible during or after the discharge indicating it is not flash steam.

I do not know all that is involved in the process, but I don't believe it is HHO or electrolosis. I also don't know if my pump design would work as I have recently found that the water is atomized, but it may return to it's liquid state instataneously following the event. not sure as I have not experimented.

I just know that it is different than the IC engine mist style water spark plug experiements going on here and also that it seems (from what I've ready) to be proven to work consistently (used in industry today) and seems to be an example of overunity input VS output.

I cannot argue in facts because I have not experimented myself, but if it is currently in use in industry, it seems someone has put the time in to make this work and if that person has not though of motive applications, maybe it is simply a matter of taking the proven technology in a new direction.

Am I out in left field here or does this seem promising to anyone else? This isn't just some thing that I dreamed up, (well I guess the pump design is, but only that specifically) it is proven techology, used in the metal forming industry and it seems that it just needs to be adapted for use in other areas.

Can you give some source to the metal forming your talking about. I'm not suggesting it does not work. I was referring to tests conducted where plasma sparks under water generate HHO bubbles. These newly made bubbles pop with the following arcs and go back into the water instead of this blast. The process just creates HHO bubbles and then pops them. No real pressure is obtained. Perhaps we are not on the same page.

[wes77]

I am no engineer

but... I believe from what I've read on electrohydraulic metal forming that the water simply reacts to the spark (and is possibly atomized) resulting in a shock wave that can be up to 156% efficient according to a figure I read regarding a mining institutes findings (their measurements).

Measured input electrical energy was less than measured output kinetic. The water just expands instantaneously and forms the sheet metal against a die in an enclosed cavity similarly to explosive forming. There is no residual pressure or heat. Also in another test I saw where experiments were perfoemted in a clear housing, no fog or vapor was visible during or after the discharge indicating it is not flash steam.

I do not know all that is involved in the process, but I don't believe it is HHO or electrolosis. I also don't know if my pump design would work as I have recently found that the water is atomized, but it may return to it's liquid state instataneously following the event. not sure as I have not experimented.

I just know that it is different than the IC engine mist style water spark plug experiements going on here and also that it seems (from what I've ready) to be proven to work consistently (used in industry today) and seems to be an example of overunity input VS output.

I cannot argue in facts because I have not experimented myself, but if it is currently in use in industry, it seems someone has put the time in to make this work and if that person has not though of motive applications, maybe it is simply a matter of taking the proven technology in a new direction.

Am I out in left field here or does this seem promising to anyone else? This isn't just some thing that I dreamed up, (well I guess the pump design is, but only that specifically) it is proven techology, used in the metal forming industry and it seems that it just needs to be adapted for use in other areas.

[alsy]

Consensation??

I am wondering if other people's and Elias's issue may have been seeming to have non success or "rough" idling, due to being a condensation related matter. s1r9a9m9's back yard motor on YouTube was running pretty rough, and he did say that his car needs to warm up before running well.

I remember reading about one experimenter who created flash steam with some method. It worked to drive the piston which i understand was purely bench experiments, but then it soon stopped working. He eventually discovered that his problem was due to the steam condensing before it could do any work. He heated his engine and then found that it worked again. His original problem was that the steam was condensing because the internal cylinder walls and/ or heads, were relatively cold and that the contact with the steam, had created condensation, or the return of the steam back to a liquid state.

[alsy]

Xack,

there may very well be some level of HHO generated, but i am not convinced of HHO from plasma as being a primary cause of movement or pressure changes for either the electro-hydraulic pump, or s1r9a9m9's water car.

I think that if it was due to an implosion from HHO, there would also be an explosion related to that as well. The following was an experiment (by someone else) with implosion in a small engine. looks like the sort of engine one might find in one of those hand held grass cutters/ trimmers. YouTube - Imploding Piston

The same user has a video with a balloon stretched over a pipe that is generating HHO inside.
YouTube - YouTube - HHO balloon ignition test
It is set up to trigger ignition about every 10 seconds. First there is an explosion, and then an implosion. It shows the balloon going further into vacuum each time. I am thinking it is possible that some portion is being let out during the expansion time, due to leaking past the balloon. The balloon is stretched over it but there is nothing to prevent leaking out in expansion, beyond elasticity of the balloon over it.

I had seen claims some time ago that the expansion rate in the explosion of HHO is rather small. That is, small compared to expansion and contraction abilities of either.
-Water to steam
-Steam condensing to water
-HHO expanding in electrolysis. I think the current density is too low to create enough HHO to be a primary causation for expansion, or implosion if that happens to be the case. (which as i said, i do not believe to be as likely a primary cause)

Water has a great expansion ability. I have not seen any figures for what ignited hydrogen can expand to in the expansion part before implosion. It makes more sense to me that in the electro-hydraulic pump, and s1r9a9m9's water car, there is plasma creating heat, and that the primary force occurring is from the expansion of water in turning into steam.

@ 1 standard atmosphere of pressure and pretty close to 100 Celsius (or whatever boiling point is in degrees F), water expands something around 1700 times. At 10 atmospheres, it is about 240 times. That is still impressive.

This shows the volume density of steam at different pressures.
Properties of Saturated Steam - Pressure in Bar

[Xack]

stoichiometry is why

The arc under water creates HHO. When HHO is "ignited" it's in a perfect stoichiometry. 2 H's and 1 O's. This renders H2O, Meaning that what your getting is an "Emplosion" and water, not an "Explosion". It reduces the bubble back into the surrounding water. You need to introduce more Oxygen Nitrogen in order to get a massive release of energy. Fill a ballon with HHO and ignite it. When the flame pops the balloon initially you get an inrush of air. That new mixture renders a deafening compression wave you can feel 10 meters away. Under water, it's just HHO from the bubble you just made. It's not the same chemistry which produces the BOOM.

Xack

[wes77]

blast every time the plasma fires

see post 2689

This is a big reason why I posted. Like I mention in the above post, I'm not sure if my design would work without modification or improvement, but from what I understand, they don't have problems with wet fouling the electrodes in electro-hydraulic metal forming. They are submerged and when they fire, the water moves with enough force to bend metal. Why not try to harness this tested/proven method? Submerged electrodes and hydraulic output... possibly in the form of a electro-hydraulic pump?

Worth a shot? or if no, why not?

[elias]

Thanks Xack, you made me change my mind on buying a small motor like that, but I still have the problem of intermittent water explosion, I wonder anyone has been able to get a blast every time the plasma fires.