Water Sparkplug

[Aaron]

Active Nitrogen + Atomic Hydrogen = THERMAL EXPLOSIVE ENERGY

I started this thread because of Luc's diode deal. He was looking to replicate
a water fuel circuit.

Here is the answer to the water fuel:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/5247-ionization-water-fuel.html

Active Nitrogen + Atomic Hydrogen = THERMAL EXPLOSIVE ENERGY

[aljhoa]

Hi Al,

Not sure what the difference would be in spark/plasma speeds.

It's not 2 plasmas, it's 1 spark and 1 plasma.

The HI6 delivers 12 sparks per trigger event below 3000rpm, then reverts to a single spark through to the redline. You can't really see the 12 sparks as they're all firing so closely together, rather they appear as a single spark.

That said, if the initial HI6 spark(spark 1 of 12) initiates the plasma dump, which is exactly what happens, then that means that the plasma is travelling through the lead somewhere within the same time frame as the other 11 sparks, you follow?

As I said before, you can still see the long tendrils of spark, crossing between the ball tip and the earth cage, as well as seeing the plasma plume, clearly seperate, and while they sometimes travel close together on the ball tip, making them sometimes hard to distinguish as seperate entities, at other times they appear to jump from widely distant areas of the ball tip, which shows them up much more clearly.

The ionisation effect is very probably the cause of this.

All that aside, the fact remains that they do not merge, as I would have thought to have been the case.

Several ignition coils connected in parallel, using the same coil driver, will produce one-location plasma arc of one-coil HV but at higher output current. Thus Analysis of HI6/PS91 and RPG4700 output invents at two locations requires high-speed video recorder.
Al

[rosco1]

Plasma as well as spark.

Crane Cams HI6/PS91 and RPG4700 different time delays (trigger to ignition resulting from inherent electronic delay) may also explain two plasma arcs.
Al

Hi Al,

Not sure what the difference would be in spark/plasma speeds.

It's not 2 plasmas, it's 1 spark and 1 plasma.

The HI6 delivers 12 sparks per trigger event below 3000rpm, then reverts to a single spark through to the redline. You can't really see the 12 sparks as they're all firing so closely together, rather they appear as a single spark.

That said, if the initial HI6 spark(spark 1 of 12) initiates the plasma dump, which is exactly what happens, then that means that the plasma is travelling through the lead somewhere within the same time frame as the other 11 sparks, you follow?

As I said before, you can still see the long tendrils of spark, crossing between the ball tip and the earth cage, as well as seeing the plasma plume, clearly seperate, and while they sometimes travel close together on the ball tip, making them sometimes hard to distinguish as seperate entities, at other times they appear to jump from widely distant areas of the ball tip, which shows them up much more clearly.

The ionisation effect is very probably the cause of this.

All that aside, the fact remains that they do not merge, as I would have thought to have been the case.

[aljhoa]

HI6/PS91 and RPG4700 Plasma Arcs

Hi Al,



The RPG requires a spark(provided by HI6/PS91) to effect the dump of its capacitor, thus it cannot function without a prime ignition source, yet when it does engage, it far surpasses the spark of a HI6/PS91, by a long shot.

I do run an on/off switch with the RPG4700, so I can turn it on/off whenever it suits me, and I do use this function a lot when testing.

I can see the HI6/PS91 spark quite clearly, remembering that this is the primary system. When I turn on the RPG, I can still see the HI6/PS91 spark crossing over, as well as the RPG plasma.

Edit: I should add that we have never seen this spark/plasma phenomena when employing the RPG as the primary ignition source, nor have we witnessed it with plasma energy levels all the way up to 100 microfarad.

Crane Cams HI6/PS91 and RPG4700 different time delays (trigger to ignition resulting from inherent electronic delay) may also explain two plasma arcs.
Al

[Kinetix]

Sparkplug gap

Hello, guys.
About the gap of the sparkplug, we need to know that its dimensions are NOT set according to the spark energy, but according to the High Voltage delivered by the ignition coil and the electric insulation of the ignition coil (secondary winding), distributor cap and sparkplug wires.
The air is an electric insulator.
In open air, for an electric current to arc between two metal electrodes, we need 1kV for each mm, cause the air has a certain electrical resistance that needs to be broken. And this is in open air.
In the engine the air is compressed, so the electric resistance (insulation) of the air between the two electrodes of the sparkplug is much bigger. That means that you need many KV for every mm of the sparkplug gap. It's not about the energy, but about the high voltage to break the air insulation.
In my country, every ingnition module marketed has to generate at least 7mm spark lenght to be considered reliable. Keep in mind that the average sparkplug gap is 0.6-0.8mm. So, we could assume that each 0.7mm of the sparkplug gap needs at least 7KV to be jumped by the spark. That means a sparkplug gap of 3.5mm needs about 35KV. I think to run with this HV in your ignition system is to wear off the electric insulation of it (ignition coil, distributor gap, sparkplug wires) early... You need to maintain the HV at a minimum to have a long life of the ingnition system. How to do that? It's simple: make the sparkplug gap smaller.
So, the HV determines the lenght of the spark, and the energy of the spark determines it's thickness and, probably, it's duration.
Hope this thoughts help somebody.

[rosco1]

Primary as well as secondary ignition source.

Ignition Coils
See the 3rd & 4th picture from bottom of the link
Ignition Coils

"Firestorm" Sparkplug, Lightning Analogy?

"Once a channel of ionized air is established between the cloud (the earth cage) and ground (the ball tip) this becomes a path of least resistance and allows for a much greater current to propagate from the Earth back up the leader into the cloud. This is the return stroke and it is the most luminous and noticeable part of the lightning discharge."
Lightning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Al

Hi Al,

I'd be only too happy to subscibe to your answer as being a plausible cause, but it doesn't answer the question as the non merging spark/plasma phenomena I'm talking about is only apparent when the 2x ignition sources are firing simultaneously. The Crane Cams HI6/PS91 is prime, the RPG4700 is secondary.

The RPG requires a spark(provided by HI6/PS91) to effect the dump of its capacitor, thus it cannot function without a prime ignition source, yet when it does engage, it far surpasses the spark of a HI6/PS91, by a long shot.

I do run an on/off switch with the RPG4700, so I can turn it on/off whenever it suits me, and I do use this function a lot when testing.

I can see the HI6/PS91 spark quite clearly, remembering that this is the primary system. When I turn on the RPG, I can still see the HI6/PS91 spark crossing over, as well as the RPG plasma.

Edit: I should add that we have never seen this spark/plasma phenomena when employing the RPG as the primary ignition source, nor have we witnessed it with plasma energy levels all the way up to 100 microfarad.

[aljhoa]

"Leader formation and the return stroke"

While testing plasma via an Aquapulser RPG4700, I noted that the Crane Cams HI6 CDI and PS91 coil supplied spark, did not merge with the plasma, they clearly do remain separate, and this can be seen by anyone who actually takes the time to look for it.

You can physically see the spark tendrils crossing between the ball tip(FireStorm) and the earth cage, as well as seeing the plasma plume, though often they're displaying from a different part of the ball tip, which I assume is related to the ionization effect.

I've shown this to several electrically savvy friends and they're as puzzled as I am about it.

So, if spark of this magnitude does not merge with plasma, meaning they're travelling together all the way from the trigger point(rotor button), along the plug lead to the spark plug, then displaying as being clearly separated at the plug gap, most noticeable when using a FireStorm replication(ball tip), then it's probable that one could somehow make use of the redundant HI6 and PS91 spark for other uses, providing one could devise a way of doing so without interfering with the route of the plasma at the same time.

I'm not sure why they don't merge(I'm not that clever), maybe it's a frequency thing, I don't know, but I'd sure like to know why this occurs, as I would have thought they'd have merged instantly.

That said, I wonder what would happen if one passed the HI6 and PS91 spark into the lead from the opposite direction that the plasma is travelling along?? What would happen then? Maybe nothing, maybe they'll simply ignore each other in the same way they do when travelling in the same direction.

Beats me....

Ignition Coils
See the 3rd & 4th picture from bottom of the link
Ignition Coils

"Firestorm" Sparkplug, Lightning Analogy?

"Once a channel of ionized air is established between the cloud (the earth cage) and ground (the ball tip) this becomes a path of least resistance and allows for a much greater current to propagate from the Earth back up the leader into the cloud. This is the return stroke and it is the most luminous and noticeable part of the lightning discharge."
Lightning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Al

[moose 53]

Here is a short youtube video that demonstrates what Rosco1 is talking about YouTube - Silver spark plug

[Turbo98]

Wow. A lot of good points you made for sure. That's what I was talking about--the "skin effect" but I didn't know the term. That's very interesting for sure.

I have thought about obtaining a pressure chamber for firing spark plugs. It would be very interesting to see the difference.

Thanks for all the help understanding plugs and plasma.

[rosco1]

Plug gaps.

Just for fun, I did measure the "gap" on a non-resistor plug I had laying around. The shortest distance from the center electrode to the shell or plug base appears to be about 3.5mm. So you are correct. That just seems like a huge gap even with the additional energy and plasma. Normal gaps are around 1-1.5mm. Will the ceramic insulator surrounding the center electrode provide any additional conductivity as a path to the plug base?

Normal plug gaps, when using an old points and condenser equipped distributor system, are typically around 0.9mm, so when upgrading the ignition to HEI(electronic) distributor, the gap can be stepped up to 1.3-1.5mm, as you say, thus when applying the far more serious RPG supplied plasma, you can easily go to the bigger gap without issue.

Note that once you step up a HEI further, to include a CDI driver, as in an MSD or Crane Cams HI6 CDI, you can open the gaps up a little more from the recommended HEI gap too, thus once you add the 4.7UF capacitor supplied plasma from the RPG4700, you can easily open up the gaps to 4-5mm, not a problem. I suggest you keep the gap down to about 3mm though, as plug wear will open the gaps up as the erosion does what it does, so start at 3mm, and then watch both the electrode and plug base for indications of wear. Once you wear them out to about 4mm, change them over for new ones. Simple.

Note the gap size on a Brisk Premium LGS plug, it's factory set at around 3mm, and cannot be adjusted, so if you take all this into account, you'll see that a stripped down plug will happily work in this scenario too. That Brisk plug is designed to run with a simple HEI, and also works great with a CDI spark as well. Just a shame that the electrodes chew out with plasma.

You need to know that spark/plasma always displays a phenomena called "glide effect" or "skin effect" too, where the spark/plasma "glides" over the top of the ceramic, and once you understand this point, you'll be able to appreciate that this phenomena can also be used to your advantage as it allows the spark/plasma to "bend", thus stretching it out further than would normally be the case if you gave the spark an unhindered path to the earth point, like say in a straight line across from the electrode, meaning if the electrode and earth points were directly across from each other, the spark/plasma has no interference.

This "glide effect" becomes apparent if you place a non conductive obstacle directly in the path of the spark/plasma, just like the center electrode ceramic, thus the spark/plasma will have to go around this obstacle to get to the ground/earth points. Take a very close look at the Brisk plug to see how this works, then look at doing the same thing with your stripped down plug.

When choosing a plug to use in the stripped down fashion, select a plug that gives you everything you need right from the outset. Choose wisely.

Calculate your "reach" carefully, and try to get a plug that will allow the electrode/firing point, to be positioned precisely in the middle of the combustion chamber, meaning that under compression(TDC), the electrode is midway between the piston face and the roof of the combustion chamber, but remember, a stripped down plug will be firing backwards at an angle of about 100-120 degrees, so you can place the electrode a little closer to the piston in this scenario, do try to take advantage of this.

It's all about capitalising on the flame kernel, and exposing it to as much fuel/air as possible from the outset.

This firing back angle is best appreciated by looking at how the Brisk plug operates, and the bulbous center electrode ceramic of that plug will give you an idea of how the "glide effect" works, I strongly recommend you study this point and apply your new found knowledge to your best advantage.

Be aware too, most spark plugs were never designed to run plasma, and often the manufacturers join the electrode to the electrode shaft, deep within the plug (where you can't get at it), they do this with a "powder joint", and this "powder joint" will explode if you throw plasma down through it, so again, choose your plug very carefully.

Another thing to watch out for, is the fact that most plugs present a "ceramic hugging" phenomena under pressurised conditions, meaning that when you apply compression, the spark/plasma will not jump across to the earth, even though that appears to be the path of least resistance, rather, under compression, the spark/plasma can, and often does, "hug" the center electrode ceramic, and travels along that to ground/earth deep within the plug base. You'll be shocked to learn that many plugs do this. It's a design flaw, and care needs to be taken to ensure you don't select a plug with this flaw, for if that turns out to be the case, you'll just waste precious time and energy on a set of basically dud plugs.

That ceramic "hugging" phenomena appears to be related to the length at which the electrode protrudes from the center electrode ceramic, and it appears to be more apparent when using a shorter style electrode, so choose a plug that has a nice long electrode.

This is why I suggested that you get your hands on a suitable spark plug pressure tester, for that would then allow you to test a variety of plugs, until you find the one that works for you. If you do opt to go down that path, just ensure you allow fresh air to be passed through the pressure tester, as ionised air exacerbates the problems I've mentioned above, and will give you poor data.

You do learn "stuff" when you start looking into this spark/plasma circus.

[Turbo98]

Just for fun, I did measure the "gap" on a non-resistor plug I had laying around. The shortest distance from the center electrode to the shell or plug base appears to be about 3.5mm. So you are correct. That just seems like a huge gap even with the additional energy and plasma. Normal gaps are around 1-1.5mm. Will the ceramic insulator surrounding the center electrode provide any additional conductivity as a path to the plug base?

[Turbo98]

Ok. Thanks for the help with the plugs. That makes sense.

[rosco1]

Plug gaps.

Did you run the RPG with plugs with the ground electrode cut off? That translates to a pretty large plug gap. I thought the manufacturer of the RPG doesn't recommend a gap this large as it could cause the unit to arc internally or fry the internal diode. Just curious...

I run my RPG in "bypass" mode, meaning I use 1 x 16KVA microwave oven blocking diode per spark plug.

Aquapulser suggest a 5mm gap as the extreme limit, you won't get anywhere near that by taking the earth strap off a plug, just make sure you select a plug that physically suits what you're intending to use it for.

I mostly use my FireStorm replications, which have a fairly large gap, though to quote that gap for you, I'd have to rummage through hundreds of archived emails to find the exact measurements, same goes for the super plugs, they have a wide gap too, though none of these gaps I'm talking about are quite as wide as it would be on a stripped (of earth strap) plug.

Don't worry about the gap on a stripped plug, it would still equate to less than the 5mm outer limit as specified by Aquapulser, probably be about 3-4mm, likely closer to 3mm.

If you strip a plug, remember, it will fire radially from that time on, using the side of the electrode instead of the factory cut off top part, firing back to the plug base, which is a much better arrangement then it ever was before. Take your time and file down the weld where the earth strap was located, this will then give you an equidistant(360 degree) firing potential, and the plasma will enjoy that.

Take care and choose a plug that has the electrode and electrode ceramic sitting just proud of the plug base by a couple of millimetres, so that when you knock off the strap, it will present a firing arrangement where the plasma fires backwards by about 100-120 degrees, in the shape of a backward umbrella, if you get my meaning. Actually, it will fire backwards to about the same angle as what a Brisk Premium LGS plug does, so look at this carefully and make it work to your advantage.

You won't ever overcome missfires using normal plugs, but you will greatly improve the firing potential of a cheap and nasty plug, which can be beneficial to your wallet.

My advice to you is, if you're seriously thinking of going down this road, then buy or make yourself a suitable pressurised spark plug testing chamber and do a bunch of tests for yourself, you'll be surprised at what you learn along the way.

[Turbo98]

Like I said earlier, if you knock off the earth straps from a set of cheap and nasty plugs, and fire them with an RPG, you should come out of it ok. If you want to go mad and run energy that will vaporize diamond, melt tungsten, vaporize holes in pistons etc, then you'll have to wait until we get this new system cracking.

Did you run the RPG with plugs with the ground electrode cut off? That translates to a pretty large plug gap. I thought the manufacturer of the RPG doesn't recommend a gap this large as it could cause the unit to arc internally or fry the internal diode. Just curious...

[Turbo98]

Hmmm... That's some serious ignition energy. I'm curious how this turns out.