Water Sparkplug

[gotoluc]

WOW Spokane1

you are very seriously equipped!

Again, your test data is most excellent

Maybe you would like to also analyze the effects of another simple circuit I found recently. The topic is here: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...bemf-coil.html

I have made 6 videos to date to demonstrate the effect. You may enjoy studying it also. Please have a look at all the videos and let me know what you think.

Many thanks for taking the time to do this important work and sharing it.

Luc

[Aaron]

no resistor in plug

Mark,

I forgot to tell you, the plug has to be resistorless but you probably already figured that out.

[Spokane1]

RF Burst Observed in Bench Test of Gotoluc Circuit

Gentlemen,

It appears that a sawtooth RF burst does take place in the Basic Gotoluc circuit almost like the SPICE III simulator describes.

This is not an exhaustive study but a simple test to see if it was there. The gap is composed of tool steel with the negative (ground) electrode being sharpened. The effect is much greater when the gap is opened up to just short of were it will not arc. In this case the gap is 0.284". The storage cap is a 25 uF 600V oil-paper motor starter type. The power supply is voltage regulated at 300V. The battery operates the contactor to isolate the capacitor from the power supply during a pulse test. The capacitor shunt diode is a little overkill for this application (770 Amp) but I needed something that would handle 30 Amps. The HV diode is a 4-unit string of 8KV at 4 Amp microwave oven devices. The coil is a GM wasted spark model ($3.00 at the local junk yard). This coil has an isolated secondary which might be important because it allows for the polarity of the secondary to be reversed (See SPICE circuit on previous post).

The first scope trace shows the voltage across the gap as measured with a Tektronix 12KV probe. The probe is being driven past its linear range for the initial pulse but it does show the follow up burst wave form OK. The effect only shows voltage swings around 500V. This means that the arc will re-strike at a much lower voltage than the initial breakdown, which is around 15KV in this test, but way off the screen.

The second scope trace is a time expanded version of the first trace. Here we see the sawtooth nature of this process. Notice how the magnitude of the wave train remains relatively constant. The frequency of a single tooth during this portion of the burst is around 116 KHz. The actual frequency content would be higher than this due to its shape. This sample was taken from the last third of the burst where the frequency is slowing down anyway.

It will be interesting to see if this effect can be enhanced.

This observation might help those OU theories that require a HF source to explain any proposed non-classical process.

Spokane1

[AhuraMazda]

@Spokane1
You may be interested in these notes:

"Electrically induced explosion in water"

Go to page 71 of

Meyer WFC Extra Info

It highlitghts frequencies at which water explodes.

[gotoluc]

Thank you Spokane1 for submitting your excellent report.

Unfortunately I'm not qualified or knowledgeable enough to measure and test the real circuit.

I do hope someone who is qualified can take up this challenge to see if it performs anything like it does in SPICE III.

Thank you once again for taking the time to do this test and share your report

Luc

[Spokane1]

SPICE III Simulation Report

Hi Spokane1,

thank you for testing the circuit trough SPICE III and posting your findings.

Could you post some scope shots so we can see what you are seeing.

I'm sure the more knowledge may want to look at this and give there expert opinion and maybe suggest a way we could setup to measure this in real life.

Thanks for taking the time to share

Luc

Dear Mr. Gotoluc,

Attached are three word documents that contain the simulated circuit and a few waveforms plus a short commentary. The SPICE III program outputs a Windows Meta File which only seems to work with Word.

I have completed 95% of an evaluation circuit to see if these RF bursts really exist. I suppose a lot of it is determined by the nature of the spark gap.

IF I get positive results I shall post some scope traces as well.

Spokane1

[sucahyo]

About five of them worked much better than the Firestorm under the same energy conditions, and all of them used a ball for the center electrode.

That is interesting .

[gotoluc]

Gentlemen,

Has anyone observed a very distinct RF Burst (greater than 200KHz) right after the discharge of this circuit? (Basic Gotoluc topology). It lasts for about 10 uS and is composed of a series of 300 Amp sawtooth discharges. It is frequency modulated and appears to be a relaxation oscillator type response.

This is a classical response that has been modeled using SPICE III. It is a most interesting wave form - but does it happen in actual field circuits of this type?

Spokane1

Hi Spokane1,

thank you for testing the circuit trough SPICE III and posting your findings.

Could you post some scope shots so we can see what you are seeing.

I'm sure the more knowledge may want to look at this and give there expert opinion and maybe suggest a way we could setup to measure this in real life.

Thanks for taking the time to share

Luc

[Spokane1]

Simulated 732 KHz RF Burst in Water Arc Circuit

Gentlemen,

Has anyone observed a very distinct RF Burst (greater than 200KHz) right after the discharge of this circuit? (Basic Gotoluc topology). It lasts for about 10 uS and is composed of a series of 300 Amp sawtooth discharges. It is frequency modulated and appears to be a relaxation oscillator type response.

This is a classical response that has been modeled using SPICE III. It is a most interesting wave form - but does it happen in actual field circuits of this type?

Spokane1

[UncleFester]

Firstly, I'd like to thank you most kindly for taking the time to post that last response. I know you're a busy man.

I gained quite a lot out of that information and it's given me cause to review my current position.

This vehicle always gave 230 klm per 40-45 ltrs of regular gas, prior to my modifications.

Post modification it's giving 300 klm per 40-45 ltrs. This has largely been the result of a culmination of mods and can't be attributed to a single particular mod alone. Having said that, the actual mods performed are all just bolt-ons, with no tricky stuff.

Actually now that you mention it, Bob claimed that using a stock ignition, the Firestorm would give 5 to 15 percent better mileage. We did not find that to be the case, but then again not much run time was tried with a stock ignition because the computer on the Toyota Tundra V-8 vehicle was throwing error codes because of the plugs not having resistor to dampen transients. Also two of the plugs cracked their ceramics and dropped into the engine, we stopped tests on that stock engine at that point.

It might be feasible that you are getting a partial mileage gain from the plugs and ignition driver. I know the High performance ignition drivers alone will smooth an engine out and make more horsepower, thus giving you better mileage if you keep your foot out of it. I can promise you however that plug style has very little to do with mileage gain, and definitely relies more on electronics, how much power is produced by the ignition driver, and how lean the vehicle is running. And of course how often you mash the pedal to the floor

Now, on an interesting side note I talked to some folks who are building 800 and 900 horsepower Semi truck engines (Caterpillar and Cummins), and believe it or not the mileage goes way up once the engine is modified! I know from past experience driving trucks that a normal setup gets about 4-5 miles per gallon pulling 80,000 pounds and typically your foot is all the way to the floor the whole day, and yet these modified engines are getting over 6 miles per gallon, which is a large gain despite the pitiful looking mileage numbers.

So it makes sense that your increase in horsepower by adding more fuel might possibly increase the mileage as well even though it goes against common logic.

[UncleFester]

I don't know if firestorm patent or other already incorporate this design or not. The middle electrode is cylinder and the outside electrode is torus. I think it produce spark equal as ball vs ball without the misfire. Ball vs ball like surface produce bigger spark, rotating/more contact reduce the chance of misfire. Room between the ring and base needed for air to circulate.

Inspired by sanded Brisk spark plug clone, Chinese brand Kagawa.

I have never seen that design, it's a very interesting design.

We produced about 20 different variations of plug designs. Most any type of odd design was tried, some worked very well and others did not. These were all machined from Beryllium copper. The investor has all these plugs, but I might be able to get pictures of them. About five of them worked much better than the Firestorm under the same energy conditions, and all of them used a ball for the center electrode.

[rosco1]

Many thanks

Firstly, I'd like to thank you most kindly for taking the time to post that last response. I know you're a busy man.

I gained quite a lot out of that information and it's given me cause to review my current position.

[QUOTE=UncleFester;59113]
What was your mileage gain over the 5000Km test?

My mileage increase equates to about 70 klm extra distance per tank, though I'm yet to get an honest recent reading as I'm finding it quite difficult to refrain from applying excessive throttle.

This engine has come alive and is performing very smartly now. It's a bit like comparing a semi with trailer to a bobtail rig, the comparison would be similar in its extreme.

This vehicle always gave 230 klm per 40-45 ltrs of regular gas, prior to my modifications.

Post modification it's giving 300 klm per 40-45 ltrs. This has largely been the result of a culmination of mods and can't be attributed to a single particular mod alone. Having said that, the actual mods performed are all just bolt ons, with no tricky stuff.

I do intend to refuel tomorrow, and will make a conscious effort to give a new up to date economy reading, which should be higher as the Crane Cams HI6 is now in service.

Ok, I know you looked at leaning the engine, as have I, and I know what you found in that lean environment, all of that does appear to coincide with what I'm finding too.

I might go the other way then, gasp! I might jet up rather than down, as the plugs currently display a lean appearance, even though I'm currently running bigger jets than standard, thus, I might again add fuel to the point where the plugs begin to display evidence of being rich.

This isn't the track I intended to take, but the hotrodder in me beckons me to look at what happens when these plugs are shown more fuel, rather than less.

It should equate to more power, thus meaning less throttle in the overall scheme of things.

I expect the emissions will rise slightly with this new approach though.

My plan is to acquire an Aquapulser and play with that too, maybe in a richer fuel environment. Common sense suggests this approach should make some good power increases.

[sucahyo]

Just an idea of plug electrode terminal

I don't know if firestorm patent or other already incorporate this design or not. The middle electrode is cylinder and the outside electrode is torus. I think it produce spark equal as ball vs ball without the misfire. Ball vs ball like surface produce bigger spark, rotating/more contact reduce the chance of misfire. Room between the ring and base needed for air to circulate.

Inspired by sanded Brisk spark plug clone, Chinese brand Kagawa.

[UncleFester]

[QUOTE=rosco1;58874]My plugs have Champion shells too, yet differ to Moose 53's in that mine have a solid silver electrode incorporating a ball at the tip, all 1 piece, no welding.

The ball was turned down from a cylindrical blank that was purposely incorporated into the electrode's custom made die, meaning that when the silver was poured into the die, it formed a cylindrical shaped blank at 1 end, thus giving the machinist a suitable shape to begin working with when it came time to turn the balls down.

My cages are as per Moose 53's cages.

My plugs have done about 5000 klm so far with no signs of wear.

This is because of the low energy level you are using. Bob told me multiple times that you need at least 1.5 Joules of energy to see any effect in mileage and performance (horsepower). Through testing we found this was generally true. 1 Joules or less was producing minimal plasma, even when running multiple spark discharge drivers and SCR driven capacitor discharge. When running at the needed energy level the plugs he made similar to yours (before he had them professionally machined) would last around 1000 miles before they would eat through the cage so that you simply had four prongs sticking up from the plug body. We tested many of these plugs just for fun and they still worked just as well as the new three and four prong cage designs, even with the top of the cage missing.

What was your mileage gain over the 5000Km test?

I note that you guys had a lot of plug failures, mainly in the area of the ceramics, yet the plugs we're running have yet to present a single failure. This is a curious point. At what point were your plugs failing?

This is because his design used a cone shape ceramic with a cup at the top that cradled the ball. This is a patent that you have not seen before because to my knowledge the investor never filed it (because it didn't work and had mechanical flaws). The ceramic was very thin towards the ball because of the tapered shape, and would cause the ceramic to crack under vibration and the ceramic would then fall into the cylinder. I cringed at that after seeing it happen to a high end V-8 engine. We quickly removed the plugs and tried to blow the ceramic out of the cylinder before it did any major damage to the cylinder walls.

I'd like to know your thoughts on the potential of the Aquapulser RPG4700 plasma unit as it appears to generate high levels of plasma at about .5 joule if I'm not mistaken, thus potentially avoiding the need to go anywhere near the HV transients.

It personally doesn't sound like nearly enough energy to get any kind of mileage gain, but then again I am not a physicist, nor do I have a good knowledge of plasma physics. It may be possible to somehow create a large volume of plasma from that tiny amount of energy but I am unsure to be honest. I am just an electronics engineer, machinist, and welder. What I do know is that our tests from multiple drivers showed that you need at least 1 Joule to see any kind of plasma effect.

I can tell you from personal experience that you need to see a large glow of plasma the same diameter of the body of the plug (roughly 14mm or so) or you will not be seeing any major effects on mileage. You need to test this before you put the plug into the chamber or you are just taking guesses at how effect you should see. If you are seeing small lightning bolts across the discharge points on the plug then you do not have enough energy. This thing should look like a light saber fired up on the end of the plug.

This lower powered plasma should increase in volume under compression, perhaps taking it to the levels you were looking for with the souped up 1.5 and beyond CDI rigs.

This may be true however remember that at 1.5 Joules we still did not see any mileage improvement, although the engine ran much smoother at 14:1 A/F. We need to go 25:1 or higher A/F to see major mileage improvements, and we could go no leaner than 20:1 before the engine started misfiring because it was not able to fire that lean of a mixture. Even when we ran TWO Crane cams ignitions at 1.5 Joules EACH in parallel, the engine was not able to run leaner than 20:1 nor did we see any Krupa claimed miracle effects on the exhaust gas analyzers, etc running these systems.

It's my understanding that HI6 and PS91 are incapable of achieving a suitable level of plasma release in standard guise, thus requiring the components to be overdriven to achieve a suitable plasma level, in turn bringing on the transients, is that right? Perhaps these RPG units hold the answer.

These units do produce a small amount of plasma, but the MSD portion of the driver needs to be tuned because the less pulses the driver produces, the more power you have per pulse since you are ultimately discharging a capacitor to the output. All of the driver we used eventually blew out (electronic malfunction), even when running stock plugs, so there are other issues with this brand of driver anyway.

It may be difficult to even obtain these drivers for a while though. It sounds like S&S has bought them out.
Crane Cams

Part of FireStorm's appeal for me was the low wear due to the ionisation effect and this aspect is still appealing.

We did not find lower wear, in fact, the plugs appeared as though they would not last more than 2000 miles or so using a high performance ignition. And in fact we found that at 1 Joule or more it would be a very short period of time before the plug material on the cage would be missing, even when using beryllium copper and other fairly exotic metals. If however you are using lower energy levels they may last tens of thousands of kilometers, but this has to be tested as well.

Going beyond spark and into plasma is looking for the icing on the cake though, and that's the area we're all most interested in, given the hydrogen molecule splitting potential of this plasma, thus we seek a suitable plasma gen, one that does the splitting yet avoids the troublesome transients.

This is the most interesting effect in all honesty. The ability to explode water and drive a piston is the best part of this whole idea, but you don't need a firestorm plug to do it. In fact it appears other plugs work just as well if not better at firing water via plasma effects. If a cold fog can be introduced and enough plasma was available to interact with the vapor it might be feasible to run an engine this way. The only thing tha leaves me leary of this is that we did not get big pressure gains in a closed chamber when firing water. In fact we ended up with a slight vacuum after the explosion of the water took place.

Can you take a look at the RPG4700 via the Aquapulser website and give your opinion as to it's potential as a suitable alternative to a CDI? Note the "inline" mode as well as the "bypass" mode. You'll need to access the instruction manual via the website in order to view the schematics of each mode.

It certainly looks impressive in terms of the effect although the size of the plasma ball seems small. If I were to buy one I would make sure I could return it if it did not do what I needed it to do.

It's a pity these units weren't available when you were involved with those tests, I do wonder if the outcome may have been different.

It would have made my life alot easier in terms of not having to produce a bunch of electronic circuits for running those plugs.

[SkyWatcher]

Hi folks, its been awhile since I looked in this thread although I was watching the progress and I know what Aaron's theory is on the operation as posted in post #307. While it certainly could be the function of the circuit, I decided to research the web and found a diagram that shows the wiring diagram of the ignition coil and how it relates to the induced field polarity in the secondary and something does not make sense. I am going to post a cad pic of the way the circuit is wired according to the way Peter L. showed in the video he posted and the second circuit in the cad pic is the same circuit just shuffled around to make it easier to see the function. What I am seeing, and of course let me know Aaron and the rest of you good folks if you already understand the proper wiring setup, as I noticed what people posted didn't look right. Anyway it appears that when the cap is briefly discharged it appears the primary and secondary are in parallel and while the primary is charging the secondary has an induced field that aids the cap and the primary as shown by the small polarity signs, and while the primary is still charging the primary and secondary are in series and short circuited via the diode. And when switched is opened the collapsing field coil polarities are shown by the large polarity signs and the secondary finds a path through spark gap. Now I am not refuting Aarons theory, all I am trying to do is understand what is happening in this circuit and Aaron does this fit your theory based on this wiring diagram, that is, if this is the proper wiring setup which It seems to be unless the ignition coil diagram i found on the web is not accurate. Let me know. here is the cad pic
peace love light