Water Sparkplug

[UncleFester]

Uncle Fester , Can you put a 1 joule amount in terms that I can correlate with the equipment I have ? Procomp 6AL ignition box, Procomp PS1 coil , replicated Kiker wire ,and Firestorm plug. Robin

Your driver should list the output power in Joules. This rating is energy released from a certain charge. It typically applies to a capacitor of a certain size that is charged to a certain voltage, thus giving you Joules of energy. Our supplier should have this information because it is a critical design parameter when they designed the unit you are running.

The crane cams ignition driver we used was claimed to release 1.5 Joules per firing, but this was also release in a number of pulses (multiple spark discharge) and we found that frequency of pulses was critical in the effect it created. You get more of a cloud of plasma with higher frequencies and more of a single loud bang in a single pulse discharge of the same energy.

If you have any doubt about the energy contained in a pulse from a certain circuit and are unfamiliar with the equations in obtaining charge level in Joules, then I would highly suggest you use the following program to make your calculations for you:

Electronics 2000 | Downloads - FREE Software

[kwindt]

Very strong point you make, TRON, really.

[TRON]

Really ...What is the real issue here?

All this talk about spark length and shapes of the cages, ball vs point, high current...sounds like a 89 page brochure about an all week convention for FRANKENSTEIN MONSTERS... you know, my neck bolts are better than yours, watch my sparks fly, yours are weak...blah, blah, blah.

Why dont youse guys grab the bull by the horns and combine these plugs with a 100% water fuel system? check pages 18-22 of "Stanley Meyer Explained" might give you some fresh insight on electron guns and electron extraction from ambient air so that an oxygen atom can disassociate any thing in its path, including water mist...

My point is simply this.... if you really want to save money on fuel, drive down to the local lake or pond and load er up!

( we need all the technicians we can throw at this thing to get all the builds done, the science is explained in the thread...)

happy days, happy days...no more need for fossil fuel !

[kwindt]

[rosco1]

I stand corrected

meaning that when the silver was poured into the die

I've just been informed that my electrodes were cold formed, not heated and poured into the die, apologies if my error caused concerns.

[rosco1]

UncleFester

My plugs have Champion shells too, yet differ to Moose 53's in that mine have a solid silver electrode incorporating a ball at the tip, all 1 piece, no welding.

The ball was turned down from a cylindrical blank that was purposely incorporated into the electrode's custom made die, meaning that when the silver was poured into the die, it formed a cylindrical shaped blank at 1 end, thus giving the machinist a suitable shape to begin working with when it came time to turn the balls down.

My cages are as per Moose 53's cages.

My plugs have done about 5000 klm so far with no signs of wear.

I note that you guys had a lot of plug failures, mainly in the area of the ceramics, yet the plugs we're running have yet to present a single failure. This is a curious point. At what point were your plugs failing?

I'd like to know your thoughts on the potential of the Aquapulser RPG4700 plasma unit as it appears to generate high levels of plasma at about .5 joule if I'm not mistaken, thus potentially avoiding the need to go anywhere near the HV transients.

This lower powered plasma should increase in volume under compression, perhaps taking it to the levels you were looking for with the souped up 1.5 and beyond CDI rigs.

It's my understanding that HI6 and PS91 are incapable of achieving a suitable level of plasma release in standard guise, thus requiring the components to be overdriven to achieve a suitable plasma level, in turn bringing on the transients, is that right? Perhaps these RPG units hold the answer.

Part of FireStorm's appeal for me was the low wear due to the ionisation effect and this aspect is still appealing.

Going beyond spark and into plasma is looking for the icing on the cake though, and that's the area we're all most interested in, given the hydrogen molecule splitting potential of this plasma, thus we seek a suitable plasma gen, one that does the splitting yet avoids the troublesome transients.

Can you take a look at the RPG4700 via the Aquapulser website and give your opinion as to it's potential as a suitable alternative to a CDI? Note the "inline" mode as well as the "bypass" mode. You'll need to access the instruction manual via the website in order to view the schematics of each mode.

It's a pity these units weren't available when you were involved with those tests, I do wonder if the outcome may have been different.

[moose 53]

Uncle Fester , Can you put a 1 joule amount in terms that I can correlate with the equipment I have ? Procomp 6AL ignition box, Procomp PS1 coil , replicated Kiker wire ,and Firestorm plug. Robin

[UncleFester]

Uncle Fester, I can answer #3 about the plugs . The plugs consist of a Champion resister plug with the resister removed , the ball is tig welded nickel ( no alloy ) turned on the lathe. The cage is nickel tig rod ( no alloy ) flattened and bent over a mandrel then tig welded to the plug body.

You will be seeing the same performance form a stock plug with no resistor and no J-electrode when you run them both for a period of time. If you are running less than 1 joule of energy the Firestorm will do slightly better, but when energy levels are increased to an 1.5 Joule or more (minimum acceptable to see good mileage improvement, etc) then normal plugs work as good.

A comparison of the two needs to be performed in order to get an idea of the difference (in hard concrete numbers) unless you don't care about being objective and just simply like one style of plug over another because of looks etc. Without a baseline of RPM increase, mileage increase, etc of each plug it's hard to determine if one plug is better than another.

[rosco1]

I might be game...

HAS ANYONE TRIED... Ionizing the ambient air ( positive ions of oxygen) before doing any of these water plasma experiments???

Check the last 3 or 4 pages of Stanley Meyer Explained... it all comes together there!

Sure great plugs can help... but what about using the ionized oxygen, that is missing 4 of 8 electrons to split the water molecules for you BEFORE THEY HIT THE Combustion Chamber???

Like in the intake manifold???

You see... the BIG HAIRY OXYGEN ATOM, Missing those electrons, wants to stabilize... so the tink weak hydrogen atoms have to give up their valence electrons... for every oxygen atom that is missing 4 electrons, you split TWO molecules of water into hydrogen AND oxygen.....
ANyone interested in combining this with the FANCY PLUGS THAT YOU HAVE TAKEN 89 PAGES TO DISCUSS?

(Just some friendly thread to thread competition) its healthy to think outside of the box( the air is fresher too!)

TRON,

Sounds like it might be worth a try.

I'm currently running Firestorm replications, after today they will be fired by a brand new Crane Cams HI6 CDI and a PS91 coil, I also have an LX91 coil here on standby. The current transfer is via Kiker style copper tube leads, through a Bosch HEI distributor.

I've also asked Aquapulser for an RPG 4700 plasma gen, but have not heard back from them yet.

Engine is a completely stock standard 202 cubic inch inline 6 cylinder, apart from the extractors/headers and a 34 ADM Weber 2BBL carb on a Holley pattern 2BBL intake manifold. The Bosch HEI is from a later model engine and is running a full 12 volts to the module via a relay. Wiring to the distributor has also been upgraded to 20 amp.

I have added a 50/50(by measure, not weight) blend of water/methanol to the equation as well, to augment the standard low octane pump petrol/gasoline. My current water/meth consumption rate is about 4 ltrs per 120 klm.

When I purchased this vehicle, it consistantly gave 230 klm per 40-45 ltrs at highway speeds in standard guise.

The vehicle is no lightweight, it's a 1978 Land Rover 109 GS, 1 tonne rated ex Australian Army vehicle. It weighs 1830kg in it's current state.

It now gives me 300 klm per 40-45 ltrs at highway speeds, though I'm yet to be able to confirm if the HI6 will have increased that by much as I only just fitted it yesterday. This HI6 is brand new.

The initial HI6 I purchased was a second hand unit and after I installed it, the darn thing failed to fire after about 40 seconds, thus it's in being repaired as we speak and will make a good spare if it can be resurrected.

Today the car is running Brisk Premium HOR15LGS spark plugs along with the newly installed HI6, just to give me a chance to inspect my Firestorms more closely.

The Kiker leads have been removed today and replaced by the best leads available from ICE Ignitions, these are 9mm very low resistance type, and touted as the best leads available off the shelf.

Today will see the Kikers refitted along with everything else.

I can already tell that the HI6 will give a positive economy gain, though I'll know more once I screw the Firestorms back in later this afternoon.

The Firestorms have done about 3000 klm of work since last inspected.

Difficult to get economy as the responsiveness and extra horsepower seems to bring out the lair in me, which now sees the vehicle being driven aggressively rather than sedately. I have purchased a new throttle pedal assembly which will enable me to govern the pedal travel, thus slowing me down. It had to be done as I just couldn't refrain from applying the boot.
I'm taking my time fitting that new pedal though.

So far I've managed to increase my range by 70 klm per 40-45 ltrs, but I expect that the HI6 will see another economy increase, if the "feel" is anything to go by.

I installed a large "Fuel Cat" to the fuel line about 3 days ago too, so once I get my entire "combination" refitted, I can then begin trying to test for economy again.

I'd like more info about ionising the intake oxygen.

[TRON]

Hello ???

HAS ANYONE TRIED... Ionizing the ambient air ( positive ions of oxygen) before doing any of these water plasma experiments???

Check the last 3 or 4 pages of Stanley Meyer Explained... it all comes together there!

Sure great plugs can help... but what about using the ionized oxygen, that is missing 4 of 8 electrons to split the water molecules for you BEFORE THEY HIT THE Combustion Chamber???

Like in the intake manifold???

You see... the BIG HAIRY OXYGEN ATOM, Missing those electrons, wants to stabilize... so the tink weak hydrogen atoms have to give up their valence electrons... for every oxygen atom that is missing 4 electrons, you split TWO molecules of water into hydrogen AND oxygen.....
ANyone interested in combining this with the FANCY PLUGS THAT YOU HAVE TAKEN 89 PAGES TO DISCUSS?

(Just some friendly thread to thread competition) its healthy to think outside of the box( the air is fresher too!)

[moose 53]

Firestorm plugs

Uncle Fester, I can answer #3 about the plugs . The plugs consist of a Champion resister plug with the resister removed , the ball is tig welded nickel ( no alloy ) turned on the lathe. The cage is nickel tig rod ( no alloy ) flattened and bent over a mandrel then tig welded to the plug body.

[UncleFester]

I have been selling stuff and just today I removed the Firestorm plugs from my Bug, re-enabled the automatic choke, re-timed, tuned and installed the stock jets, in preparation for selling it.

Now that it has been restored I must say that the difference between how it drove with the Firestorms vs how it runs stock is drastic! I can't tell you what a 'dog' it once again is.

Those plasma generating plugs had a huge impact ... ran lean, no choke needed, 40% better mileage, etc., and on, and on.

Someone should continue researching the Firestorm plugs!

Greg

That is amazing. Wonder why our results were so poor even considering the amount of time and $200,000 in funding.

1. How many joules were placed across the plugs?

2. What ignition was being used?

3. Were these plugs machined from Beryllium copper with Boron silicate ceramics?

4. How many miles were driven using the Firestorm design plugs/ignition?

5. Were normal plugs with the resistor removed used to test the difference between the two plug designs?

Thanks.

[TRON]

RE: Sparks

I'm not seeing any issue with the actual length of the rotor tip as yet.

I am finding that the vacuum advance settings are way out of synch when running FireStorm, Kiker leads and HEI ignition alone, through a PS91 coil.

If I revert back to very high quality spiral core leads, the problem isn't anywhere near as apparent, though it has to be said, the power increase has thus fallen off to a degree as well.

Oh yeah, if running Kiker wires, ensure the thin wire is kept separate(insulated) from the main tube for the entire length of the lead, terminating only at the terminal at each end. If it makes contact anywhere in between, the gain isn't as great as what you'll get with a carefully insulated wire.

The issue of the vastly out of synch vacuum advance will require great care in trying to overcome it, thus making the overall power increase more apparent.

Exploiting the quirks is half the battle.

The key may not be higher voltage and higher amps... but a longer duration high frequency pulse... the igh frequency at 50%duty cycle will cut the heat and current in half with the same voltage levels!

Also maybe a different cam grind is required to close valves and open valves faster, since hydrogen burns 2.5 time faster than gasoline (maybe more)...

[rosco1]

Rotor

Would a wider rotor tip on the end of the distributor rotor allow for a longer spark dwell from 6 BTDC to 15 ATDC ?

...Just need a coil that can spark continuously for the duration of time the rotor is passing under the cap conductor...

Might help those guys running older conventional distributor engines
Simply get a rotor for your distributor that has a wider tip (3/4") or make it wider and adjust the position of the cap/dist to start firing when the edge touches the cap electrode for that cylinder # 1 ( retard a bit)..

any comments?

I'm not seeing any issue with the actual length of the rotor tip as yet.

I am finding that the vacuum advance settings are way out of synch when running FireStorm, Kiker leads and HEI ignition alone, through a PS91 coil.

If I revert back to very high quality spiral core leads, the problem isn't anywhere near as apparent, though it has to be said, the power increase has thus fallen off to a degree as well.

Oh yeah, if running Kiker wires, ensure the thin wire is kept separate(insulated) from the main tube for the entire length of the lead, terminating only at the terminal at each end. If it makes contact anywhere in between, the gain isn't as great as what you'll get with a carefully insulated wire.

The issue of the vastly out of synch vacuum advance will require great care in trying to overcome it, thus making the overall power increase more apparent.

Exploiting the quirks is half the battle.

[vzon17]

Would a wider rotor tip on the end of the distributor rotor allow for a longer spark dwell from 6 BTDC to 15 ATDC ?

...Just need a coil that can spark continuously for the duration of time the rotor is passing under the cap conductor...

Might help those guys running older conventional distributor engines
Simply get a rotor for your distributor that has a wider tip (3/4") or make it wider and adjust the position of the cap/dist to start firing when the edge touches the cap electrode for that cylinder # 1 ( retard a bit)..

any comments?

not including the water spark plug circuit a neon sign transformer would put out AC highvoltage and you could hold the spark on as long as you want. With that longer distributer contact would not be neede as the arc would follow and sustain . it would be hard on the spark plug and bistributer though as it creates much heat. just a few seconds on the neon transforem and the spark plug is real hot already. Mabye lots of high voltage capacitor in the circuit would help that as it would be a much bluer spark.