Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[marxist]

Hi toranarod,
thanks for the clarification about the columns on the left side of your data sheets.

I understand that in the first column "Duty Cycle in micro Sec" you give the "ON-time". That is the duration, for which you supply energy to the drive coil.
But what actually happens to the drive coil during the time which is quoted in the second column "Frequency in micro Sec"?
What does the quoted period (663 micro Sec) signify?
Thanks

edit: After pondering over it, I think I know what the figures in the second column mean: The second column gives the period between drive pulses. And that parameter only comes into play, when you use multiple "drive pulses per event", as you initially did.
But since you went back to basically "1 drive pulses per event", the second column is more or less meaningless. Right?

[toranarod]

Rod,

I'm having a problem seeing how the RPM's you have in this test relate to the frequency. At that RPM I calculate that a magnet should pass the gen coil 541.2 times per second, but this doesn't reflect your 663 cycles per Microsecond.

Can you help me understand the relationship? Thanks in advance. PS, I hope your build is coming along nicely.

One thing i have had difficultly explaining. The first three columns of data are only related to the drive coil and has nothing to do with the generator coil.
This data only represent how much energy is used to achieve drive speed.

I have been trying to find away to achieve the 4000 RPM and reduce these figures, lower the duty cycle and you lower current consumption. The drive pulse time determined how many watts is required to get the RPM needed. I use this data tune the motor to the same specification each test.

[quantumuppercut]

Interesting. Thanks

RPM results with no coil, un-loaded coil, and loaded coil would be interesting to see. Note: if you do this can you also show the input wattage on each? (not looking for over-unity, just to see which ones increase draw)

I agree that's the way to test it. I've tried some experiment along the line.

I inserted a 10 Ohm resistor in series with the input to monitor the current (Sorry, lacking of sophisticated equipment). If current go up, we have speed decrease, if current go down, we have speed increase.

With the coil in place unloaded, it reads .833V . When I dead short the coil, it still read .833V. I don't rely too much on this result though. The system is sensitively small so the observation band is also small.

When I remove the coil from the setup, it reads .867V This shows a speed decrease. Later I found out that the board vibrate which burn energy. Having the coil in place clamped down with weight makes it less vibrate. Hope we can test this on an accurate level.

[Shadesz]

Here are some vids about the bifilar coil.

How to Wind a Bifilar Coil - YouTube
Make a Joule Thief - YouTube

It's the same as normal coil except there are 2 wires instead of 1. There are 4 ends total.

1s---------------------------------1f
2s---------------------------------2f

1s= wire 1 start end
1f= wire 1 finish end
2s= wire 2 start end
2f = wire 2 finish end
-------------------------= wire

I left the 1f and 2s alone and just connect the 1s and 2f to a full bridge rectifier. The current draw should be proportional to flux change and wire capacitance and the coil should be lenzless if capacitance and magnet speed is not too high, but need testing to confirm.

Interesting. Thanks

RPM results with no coil, un-loaded coil, and loaded coil would be interesting to see. Note: if you do this can you also show the input wattage on each? (not looking for over-unity, just to see which ones increase draw)

[142857]

If this is such a good smelling cobbler to you then why don't YOU take it to the wind energy industry? Heck, you could even patent it (seeing as it is a different application than has been done before) and sell it to them.

You pretend you know so much, but have failed to answer even basic answers about phases of energy. I wish you would take your idea and run with it. It would do the world good after all. Heck I would even contribute to the thread if you kept it open source, but as far as this thread goes, you have proven your beliefs don't agree/belong here. Ignore list for you.



Edit: For those who also want to ignore his attitude in this forum here is a link to your friend/ignore list.

You were supposed to ignore me a few posts ago.
and why do you want me to quote energy phases of ele definitions to you...you obviously don't believe physics definitions?

if you haven't ignored me yet....how bout indulge me....what exactly have you built? It's my understanding that you are pretty new to all this? I'm not...

Who is pretending to be "so smart"?

Anybody wanna show me anything I've presented as fact that is not fact? When it's my opinion, I qualify it. The rest has been questions? Obviously they are tough ones or everybodies feathers wouldn't be ruffled. Still just questions.

What the heck is with this "beliefs" crap?
This is NOT religion. Grow up. Viewpoints do actually come from every imaginable angle, in real life anyway.

[Shadesz]

Rod,

I'm having a problem seeing how the RPM's you have in this test relate to the frequency. At that RPM I calculate that a magnet should pass the gen coil 541.2 times per second, but this doesn't reflect your 663 cycles per Microsecond.

Can you help me understand the relationship? Thanks in advance. PS, I hope your build is coming along nicely.

[Shadesz]

Theoretically it could upgrade the wind/energy business.

Unfortunately all the people working on it seem to be so caught up in the religion of believing they can CREATE energy that they can't smell the cobbler.

If this is such a good smelling cobbler to you then why don't YOU take it to the wind energy industry? Heck, you could even patent it (seeing as it is a different application than has been done before) and sell it to them.

You pretend you know so much, but have failed to answer even basic answers about phases of energy. I wish you would take your idea and run with it. It would do the world good after all. Heck I would even contribute to the thread if you kept it open source, but as far as this thread goes, you have proven your beliefs don't agree/belong here. Ignore list for you.



Edit: For those who also want to ignore his attitude in this forum here is a link to your friend/ignore list.

[142857]

Matt, somehow I missed that clip all these years. That is awesome. have you ever developed that further? if there is zero resistance at the end and no sticking point, then why havent you developed this into a circular track and extract energy from it? or have you? it would seem that even with the portion of HJ track you have there if you had an entire ring of those magnets, with a small break in it, then after the last part was exiting with the 14 pounds then that would overcome the 1.25 to reenter. Right?

The problem comes on re entry right? I've tried several variations on this myself(anything SMOTish or related was my first real interest when I began toying with the ideas in question...I thought I was going to solve it with a little nudge from gravity....never actually materialized, not for lack of trying or lack of buying alot of magnets.

...in matts vid for example, it seems simple enough of an idea. but ultimately it won't work on a wheel. Why? Matt? I don't wanna seem like a know it all. Tell us why in the face of the poundage evidence that this can't seem to be made cyclical? Have you had any luck along the idea of your cad 4' wheel?

Could you make your ramp longer and stand it vert.....launching your magnets out and let gravity recock it for you when they fall back in? I couldn't, I tried....several different ways....why wont it work?
Matt?


Look Guys, I didn't come here to derail anything....I wanted to know if this muller thing had any advantage to currently available wind generators. Yes, I can be very "matter of fact" but honestly guys, my opinion is just like your brown eye.....shouldn't really matter here...this is science....we use evidence right?

Theoretically it could upgrade the wind/energy business.

Unfortunately all the people working on it seem to be so caught up in the religion of believing they can CREATE energy that they can't smell the cobbler.

Howard Johnson was for real so were the others, and so was Jesus.....other than a few books and some stories of old there is absolutely NO evidence of any of the previously claimed miracles.....fom any of them.

so, i guess we should just believe.




I edited this so as not to double post: forgot to point out once again I'm NOT 142857 on youtube....on youtube I am 50lbhead Richie can verify that.

[quantumuppercut]

Can you expand on this? I'm not familiar with the bifilar coil yet.

Here are some vids about the bifilar coil.

How to Wind a Bifilar Coil - YouTube
Make a Joule Thief - YouTube

It's the same as normal coil except there are 2 wires instead of 1. There are 4 ends total.

1s---------------------------------1f
2s---------------------------------2f

1s= wire 1 start end
1f= wire 1 finish end
2s= wire 2 start end
2f = wire 2 finish end
-------------------------= wire

I left the 1f and 2s alone and just connect the 1s and 2f to a full bridge rectifier. The current draw should be proportional to flux change and wire capacitance and the coil should be lenzless if capacitance and magnet speed is not too high, but need testing to confirm.

[Shadesz]

Have you guys try this set up with the magnet rotor yet?



This set up is posted by penno a while back but with a function generator. I tried it this morning with the computer fan rotor. Basically, it's a bifilar with wire not connected to each other. We use the wires as capacitance and turns as inductance. It's an equivalent of series cap I suppose. When connected to same end, it does not give out much. When connected in opposite ends like the picture, it gives out much voltage. My fan flew apart after I see it so repair time later. I suppose there also a sweet point too.

Hey guys,

I just fixed my fan rotor and tested the bifilar coil disconnected using only capacitive coupling as described in earlier post. It does show about the same amount of voltage as direct connection to 1 of the coil. I'm thinking this is the way to do it, capacitive coupling. After all, negative inductance is capacitance, is it?

Can you expand on this? I'm not familiar with the bifilar coil yet.

[Matthew Jones]

Right! You understand perfectly.



Matt

[redrichie]

Matt, somehow I missed that clip all these years. That is awesome. have you ever developed that further? if there is zero resistance at the end and no sticking point, then why havent you developed this into a circular track and extract energy from it? or have you? it would seem that even with the portion of HJ track you have there if you had an entire ring of those magnets, with a small break in it, then after the last part was exiting with the 14 pounds then that would overcome the 1.25 to reenter. Right?

[Matthew Jones]

This is what the guy "142857" posted on the You Tube. For some reason he didn't continue the discussion here.

I am afraid not Matt even though the clip looks convincing, it's isn't the case. It's like your are cocking a slingshot without really realizing it.

So without ever laying his hands on the assembly he knows how it works, he knows what it is doing.
But you cannot develop 14 inch pounds of force by cocking a slingshot that only takes 1 1/4 inch pounds to set up.


Name one device that does not use gears or levers for leverage that can do that? Thats it. Something you can cock and release that produces more force than you put in.

Matt

[Matthew Jones]

your magnet cannot CREATE kinetic energy.
You can:
input/move your magnet into a position wherein you could use it to derive kinetic energy that will be equal to or less than your initial input.

Ya I can and have many times.
LatestAssembly.MPG - YouTube
This is an example of that very action. To push the driven magnets into the array it takes 1 and 1/4 inch pounds of pressure. The array then triggers a rapid acceleration onto the driven magnet and it comes out of the array at 14 inch pounds of pressure.
This has been tested by several different mechanical engineers, as well as everyone who has walked my shop. You are welcome to come see.

So Yes you can make magnet do work and derive more energy than you put in!!!

Oh ya I added this: Howard Johnson was for real and so ar most of those people you listed.

[citfta]

In 1899 Charles H Duell was the Commissioner of the American Patent Office. He stated they should just close down the patent office because "Everything that can be invented has been invented."

Just another example of a narrow minded know it all.

Carroll