Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[elias]

Have you seen this video: Regenerative acceleration under load - YouTube
This is the circuit he has used:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3842.0;attach=53865;image

[elias]

Hi Elias,
thanks for posting your interesting video.
I have a question:
If you use your two 1mm strands (in parallel) to light one of the bulbs you will get a certain rpm.
If you keep these connected and then short the third wire (the 0.5 mm one) will it then speed up?
Significantly?
And will the light get brighter or dimmer?
Thanks

Hi

I think that the light will diminish, and the rotor will speed up, This will cause the Voltage over the other strands disappear, as I have tested before. I am at a vacation and not near my motor to verify again. I think that this shows something really interesting, how can we draw more current and increase the brightness of the lamp while speeding up according to the established laws? Unless the phase delay of the current is causing it work for us instead of against us. What we have been thought is that the phase delay causes the real power to diminish, but as we see, this was not the case in that experiment.

When current gets delayed, the voltage gets delayed too. Because the current is flowing through the lamp and the coil, and they must be at the same phase, but current starts flowing with a lag in accordance to our rotor magnets, decreasing the overall drag. This also shows that smaller the R of the load the more acceleration we can achieve.

One test needs to be done, measuring the voltage and current on the load by an oscilloscope.

I am looking forward to see some test of Rod with his new coil, that will show us many things!

Elias

[toranarod]

[QUOTE=myenergetic;157190]

I cut it up into 150 stripes and glued them together in a block of laminate.
rolling it up was not workable.

Hi there

All of you are doing an impressive research work.

@ Toranarod

Hope the link shall provides some data of the Powder Core Materials design data comparison

Regards

http://www.micrometals.com/appnotes/...ds/ocpcmic.pdf

this is going to be very helpful
I have printed it out to read over coffee
Thank you

[qvision]

@ myenergetic, thanks for that document

[myenergetic]

Powder Core Material

[QUOTE=toranarod;157129]
I cut it up into 150 stripes and glued them together in a block of laminate.
rolling it up was not workable.

Hi there

All of you are doing an impressive research work.

@ Toranarod

Hope the link shall provides some data of the Powder Core Materials design data comparison

Regards

http://www.micrometals.com/appnotes/appnotedownloads/ocpcmic.pdf

[marxist]

...Muller Load and Short Test, Strange Anomaly - YouTube

I tested it in three modes

1- shorting
2- loading with a 20W 12V light bulb
3- loading with a 80W 12V light bulb

Hi Elias,
thanks for posting your interesting video.
I have a question:
If you use your two 1mm strands (in parallel) to light one of the bulbs you will get a certain rpm.
If you keep these connected and then short the third wire (the 0.5 mm one) will it then speed up?
Significantly?
And will the light get brighter or dimmer?
Thanks

[toranarod]

hello Elias
I should of said I made the wire today I am still going over just how to wind it.
I will probably settle on one of my standard bobbins so I can use the MU metal core.

What I do is erect two post in my back yard. I am blessed with a very long type property. I then string the wire out from one post to the other until i count the turns I need. I do all the calculations before I start. type Of coils and so on.
then just measure out he distance.

I got the Idea from MonsieurM and his post about the flower of life.

Here are some photos of what i saying before about coil inductance being a dynamic effect. Note the meter and the coil with core no core and then magnets.

[elias]

Good work.
I made a 49 strand multifilar coil today. total wire Dia is 1.125 mm and it will wind 308 turns when on its former. Hard to say what the inductance will be.
calculates around 700 micro H. with air core. wait until measured.
This will be different. wish me luck.

Wow! 49 strands are so many, how did you manage to make it? I find it difficult to make multistrand coils as multiple sources of wire are required.

There is an elephant already there, we need to experiment enough to find out about the exact parameters of the elephant. I would really like to find out the most efficient config of all the parameters. I really do think that there is an optimum point in coil turns and the resistance. This coil will enable you to test many series and parallel configuration of your strands, and will really help us understand the effect! THANK YOU.

Considering them 50 strands, I suggest you testing first all of them in series, then 25 in series, and 2 in parallel, and say 10 in series and 5 in parallel, then say 5 in series and 10 in parallel, and 2 in series 25 in parallel, and all of them in parallel.

Each of these configs will result in different L/R ratios, and will enable you draw a chart of efficiency per L/R ratio.
The efficiency is proportional to I*RPM where I is the current from the coil and RPM is the speed of your rotor. Of course you can measure the input power increase at each case and calculate efficiency using that data.

Good Luck

[toranarod]

@everyone

I finally made a video and annotated it so that you can clearly see how drawing more current in a multifilar coil, speeds up the rotor, the core is ferrite so it has almost no eddies:
Muller Load and Short Test, Strange Anomaly - YouTube

I tested it in three modes

1- shorting
2- loading with a 20W 12V light bulb
3- loading with a 80W 12V light bulb

Elias

Good work.
I made a 49 strand multifilar coil today. total wire Dia is 1.125 mm and it will wind 308 turns when on its former. Hard to say what the inductance will be.
calculates around 700 micro H. with air core. wait until measured.
This will be different. wish me luck.

[elias]

Speeding up while drawing more current.

@everyone

I finally made a video and annotated it so that you can clearly see how drawing more current in a multifilar coil, speeds up the rotor, the core is ferrite so it has almost no eddies:
Muller Load and Short Test, Strange Anomaly - YouTube

I tested it in three modes

1- shorting
2- loading with a 20W 12V light bulb
3- loading with a 80W 12V light bulb

Elias

[Shadesz]

I agree with Rod.

The core design is the first critical thing in my opinion. As we are trying to delay lenz as long as possible the core may be able to delay lenz even longer than the inductance calculations people have been doing. I think of it like this...

Like I said before, as the magnet is approaching the coil, the flux will want to travel through the past of least resistance first. This path will be a highly permeable core. Hence the flux travels into the core bypassing the coil for a minute. During this time no (or minimal) current is being produced in the coil wire. With no current, we get no lenz law.

The high permeability core concentrates and 'pulls' the magnetic field away from the magnet. Then at some point, as it saturates, the field returns to the air around the core and thus enters the coil. This induces an electric current in the coil. (Now is when the time calculations have a play). And after this second delay, lenz shows up and we have an opposing magnetic field. (I still believe with the right materials and design, we can get the lenz force to accelerate and drive the rotor. But that is a wayyyys down the road.)

Anyways think of it like this... the total time we can delay lenz is the time it takes for the core to saturate + the time it takes for the coil to produce a counter magnetic field.

Lenz delay = core delay + coil delay

IMO If we maximize BOTH of these, we can use lenz for our driving force (or at least part if it)

But next (second critical thing) we need to consider the core saturation potential. For our coils to produce the most electricity, we need the biggest change in flux coming off the core (from saturation to de-saturation, back to saturation). To maximize this we choose a material that has a high saturation potential and a hysteresis curve that returns as close to zero as possible without crossing the field axis. (these two things will maximize the power production in our coil)

Then, when we have found the perfect core (I'm thinking one with a saturation potential around 2 tesla, with a hysteresis curve like I mentioned) we focus on the magnets. The magnets need to be just strong enough to saturate the core but not stronger. So for a core that saturates at 2 tesla we want a magnet that puts out roughly 20,500 gauss at the distance the magnet will be away from the core.

That way, just as the magnet reaches TDC, the core saturates. Any more power than that and we are just wasting magnet. Not to mention we may be causing lenz to show up earlier than we want.

As far as magnet spacing, I feel for maximum power output and lenz propulsion, a spacing where the magnetic fields between two magnets are separated by a distance of the core (or coil, not sure yet) is ideal. This way we allow the core/coil just enough time to completely loose its magnetic charge (while creating emf mind you. Some people wrongly call this back emf, but that's another post). If the core/coil is completely discharged before the next magnetic field reaches it, it will be ready for a maximum recharge (and maximum power generation).

Also, allowing our core and coil to completely discharge the field will also allow us more time to delay lenz as we will be starting back at 0 charge instead of halfway charged.

Does that make sense?

So far, it's a math thing to me. I have yet to determine the right core material and magnet size based on the core material. But I feel I know what I am looking for, and that's a good start. I am working hard to find what I am looking for, but information can be hard to find on specific materials. Again, does my theory on what is happening make sense?

Second note about the hysteresis curve, ironically, it makes sense that the fatter the curve the longer the lenz delay. I may explain this more if I have time or people ask. Note: This is only for a rotor with same polarities facing out. If the polarities switch you will create hysteresis loss through heat.

[toranarod]

I assume that you rolled the Mu Metal into a core from a sheet?

You can get Mu Metal wire from here: Magnetic Field Shielding Materials

It shouldn't be too hard to make a core out of wires.

Dave

I cut it up into 150 stripes and glued them together in a block of laminate.
rolling it up was not workable.

[Web000x]

Thank you for all the post. from all.
the next step is to add more coils. the only problem for me is the core.
The core that gives no drag when in open circuit is the MU metal core.
it took a longtime to make that core and i don't have any more MU metal.
I can't make 18 cores like that it would take weeks and where do i get the MU metal.
So am looking for alternatives. My iron oxide has arrived So i am hoping
Bill Muller cores are going to be just as good or even better.
we are people on budgets and cost and time for one person working alone is a big problem.

I assume that you rolled the Mu Metal into a core from a sheet?

You can get Mu Metal wire from here: Magnetic Field Shielding Materials

It shouldn't be too hard to make a core out of wires.

Dave

[toranarod]

I am self-employed in IT, which, in the UK at the moment, is almost like being unemployed !

I have lots of time but little money and little knowledge.

Don't use boat-resin for the magnetite mix, Lindemann used silicon glue but there are cheaper resins that do an 'acceptable job'.

I am still having a hard time achieving 'acceleration under load', some people have done it with 0.6mm wire with 600 turns, others have done it with very fine wire and a coil that is measured in Henries rather than milliHenries.

There seem to be so many variables.

If we were a corporation of 5,000 workers with unlimited funds this would probably take us 3 years to perfect or decide it wasn't workable, i dunno ;+}

Basicly I see it like this. There are a few contributing facts and a lot yet we dont know.

The main factors form My Research suggests THIS?

the right core material will eliminate drag when there is no load or even no coil, just core. So the fist thing to obtain is a good core.
Now the coil. Look at the coil time constant the ratio of coil to resistance will decide what RPM lenz will start to drop off. this is why High load is better lower resistance. supper conductors will make free energy no question.
But that is out of the hands of us. do the best you can by choosing good coil
design. there are other factors to fine tune such as magnet size and distance
between magnets and magnets to coil.
All so Note
the combination of core and coil will change inductance when the magnet approaches. So don't forget to measure this. its a dynamic effect.
don't just except the inductance of you coil when its in your hand not in the motor.
your time constant calculation will guide you to the right coil. But its not the only factor.
I continue to look at other parameters and will keep you posted.

[lespaul109]

In regard to Thane and alternating poles. He wrote me yesterday after I asked him. He said there was a test that showed better results with alternating. This is why I am trying to combine the two designs into a motor/gen, my only goal is self-sustaining.