Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[elias]

I don't think so

@Shadesz

I don't think that the core angle will make any difference all by itself. If you look at the blue diagram, you will see that the right side is a bit "fatter" than then left side, although the peak is higher on the left side.

But ... the lenz delay which causes asymmetry in the system might be altered because of the slanted core, this needs to be tested.

Keep it up, it is very good that you are so enthusiastic with many ideas!

[Shadesz]

Disclaimer: this idea/understanding may be way off and is currently just speculation. Take it with a grain of salt.

For this data I used this force calculator at 97 data points each being 1/40 th of an inch apart. The magnet size was 1" wide by 1/8" thick. I set the measuring points like they were on a core face that was on an angle of 1/8" rise for every 1" of face.

The black line in the middle represents the center of the magnet. And the red lines roughly show you the ends of the magnet.



Pay special attention to the blue line. This line represents the sideways pull force on the magnet. If you compare the positive pull force that is to the left of the center of the magnet and the negative pull force that is to the right of the center of the magnet magnet you will notice that they are not equal. This difference in force will cause the magnet to move forward.

Now before I go on and explain more...
Think about this on an Adams motor. As the magnet approaches the coil it is at an angle of approach. This angle is causing the magnet to pull itself closer to the core. This is a form of acceleration.

This pull force isn't as pronounced on a Muller type rotor because you only have a flat magnet face to core face. The flat face will not add that 'little bit of extra' acceleration on approach to TDC.

Hence Lenz will be able to influence a Muller design a little more, and thus it is harder to overcome Lenz. Now suppose you angle the core face so as to add this unequal pull force to a Muller design. It may give the Muller the difference we are looking for.

This assumes a linear angle of force from the magnets center to the core face. Real life is a little different, but you should get the idea.

Easy Test...
If you want to test this theory take an empty core and put it up to the Muller against a magnet like the magnet is TDC. Now angle the core back and forth and observe what happens to the rotor. It should turn slightly back and forth based on the direction of your angle. This is what it did in my tests anyway.

Note: This exercise assumes that the core face is bigger than the magnet face like we have previously identified is desirable in these generators. If your coil face is smaller than the magnet face, you will probably not see this effect.

More to come about this concept... maybe. What do you think? Need me to explain a part better? Am I off in left field?

[Shadesz]

I don't see the benefit to electromagnets on a rotary generator. You could achieve the same effect by pulsing a solid state generator without adding the extra losses due to friction.

Rotary motors try to tap the continuous energy created by the permanent magnet.

Solid stat generators try to tap energy at the point of creation and collapse of the magnetic field of an electromagnet.

They are two different ball games.

This is just my .02

K time for some charts...

[Steve220]

yes I see your point of view. things seem to work like this as I have found.
If you turn of the magnets field to avoid Lenz drag you are at the same time not producing power. What we need in this case is the I want my cake and eat it to This is where the speed under load is taking us.
always looking for information to the contrary.


My new motor bent the brackets holding the magnet in place today. so its back to the drawing board. I Was a few thousand RPM away from my target.
so I really need to fix the design.

[toranarod]

I have been watching this thread for four months of trying to cancel Lenz and I keep thinking, why not just turn off the rotor magnets?

Just a thought

Steve

yes I see your point of view. things seem to work like this as I have found.
If you turn of the magnets field to avoid Lenz drag you are at the same time not producing power. What we need in this case is the I want my cake and eat it to This is where the speed under load is taking us.
always looking for information to the contrary.


My new motor bent the brackets holding the magnet in place today. so its back to the drawing board. I Was a few thousand RPM away from my target.
so I really need to fix the design.

[Steve220]

Its an interesting idea and I would love to give it a try.
I need to say on the job at hand. any body else want to have a go.

Don't forget a car alternator works like this. I did make a pulse motor from a car alternator a few years ago. and it was all electric magnets.
no fixed magnets at all .
At the time I couldn't see enough efficiency. But I have learnt a lot since then. I did a video. I will see if it still around.
Bedini pulse Motor from a car alternator - YouTube
Oh i was new to this then Sorry about the bad Video but you get the Idea.
cheers

I have been watching this thread for four months of trying to cancel Lenz and I keep thinking, why not just turn off the rotor magnets?

Just a thought

Steve

[toranarod]

Well, I was just thinking that if the rotor magnets were electromagnets instead of permanent magnets, that they could be selectively turned off and on when needed.

So if when the electromagnet on the rotor is approaching the stationary generator magnet, it is turned on. At the center of the generator magnet core, the electromagnet could be turned off, eliminating the magnetic drag of the rotor magnet.

Through selective timing of the electromagnet rotor magnets, it would seem that most or all of the drag could be reduced for more power output of the generator. The small amount of current required to operate the rotor magnets, it seems would be insignificant in comparison to the overall increase in generator output.

This is not Lenz cancellation of a magnetic field, but just no Lenz at all because there is no magnetic field after the rotor magnet passes the center of the stationary generator coil core.

Also the current required to operate the electromagnetic magnets on the rotor are only working half the time, so a further reduction in current to operate the coils is obtained.

Its an interesting idea and I would love to give it a try.
I need to say on the job at hand. any body else want to have a go.

Don't forget a car alternator works like this. I did make a pulse motor from a car alternator a few years ago. and it was all electric magnets.
no fixed magnets at all .
At the time I couldn't see enough efficiency. But I have learnt a lot since then. I did a video. I will see if it still around.
Bedini pulse Motor from a car alternator - YouTube
Oh i was new to this then Sorry about the bad Video but you get the Idea.
cheers

[Steve220]

@ steve220, i like this idea, the rotor wires could be routed through a hollow shaft easily, negating the need for any brush type setup.
As for the power needed to drive the extra electromagnet(s), a controlled pulse delivery may yield some undiscovered territory
I bought a vertical axis wind turbine awhile back and decided to pull the generator apart, the top and bottom stator had hardrive shaped magnets. 6 coils were molded with resin to shape the rotor .. the wires from the rotor coils went through the center motor shaft.
Applying steve220`s electromagnet rotor may make the "speed up under load" easier to work with...dunno.

Well, I was just thinking that if the rotor magnets were electromagnets instead of permanent magnets, that they could be selectively turned off and on when needed.

So if when the electromagnet on the rotor is approaching the stationary generator magnet, it is turned on. At the center of the generator magnet core, the electromagnet could be turned off, eliminating the magnetic drag of the rotor magnet.

Through selective timing of the electromagnet rotor magnets, it would seem that most or all of the drag could be reduced for more power output of the generator. The small amount of current required to operate the rotor magnets, it seems would be insignificant in comparison to the overall increase in generator output.

This is not Lenz cancellation of a magnetic field, but just no Lenz at all because there is no magnetic field after the rotor magnet passes the center of the stationary generator coil core.

Also the current required to operate the electromagnetic magnets on the rotor are only working half the time, so a further reduction in current to operate the coils is obtained.

[electr0n]

Rotor Electromagnets

@ steve220, i like this idea, the rotor wires could be routed through a hollow shaft easily, negating the need for any brush type setup.
As for the power needed to drive the extra electromagnet(s), a controlled pulse delivery may yield some undiscovered territory
I bought a vertical axis wind turbine awhile back and decided to pull the generator apart, the top and bottom stator had hardrive shaped magnets. 6 coils were molded with resin to shape the rotor .. the wires from the rotor coils went through the center motor shaft.
Applying steve220`s electromagnet rotor may make the "speed up under load" easier to work with...dunno.

[Shadesz]

I wont have time to explain the charts today sorry. So I'll post them within the next couple days.

[Steve220]

I have never tried it.
The only thing that really suggests that is not a good idea is we are trying to create a OU device. So we are trying to take advantage of the free energy supplied by the magnets. So half the generator is already powered.
it would mean powering two coils not just one.
it would also complicit the design with brushes or slip rings this would also mean friction.

[toranarod]

hey guys, just an update here. As you know I have been working on some magnetite cores and I havnt had any real luck. It seems magnetite by itself is just not permeable enough. I have made several different types and used different processes. By adding steel bb's to the mix made it much better but there was fast heat build up. I am still doing some research and I will continue to do so.

I will be ordering some other powders to try, things like iron, nickle and a few others. I am also think about ferrofluid any thoughts on that?

@ toranado, If you are going to cast your cores with polyester resin make sure you put 3X the hardener (mekp) to the mix. The filler powder (magnetite) greatly reduceses the mass of the resin, therefore the cure is increased.

thank you for the information really appreciated

[toranarod]

Just a question. What is the advantage of using a permanent magnet over using an electromagnet?

I see permanent magnets used on all these rotors, but so far have not seen any electromagnets used on the rotors.

It seems that the stationary generator coil would not know or care if the rotor magnet was a permanent magnet or an electromagnet.

Has this been tried before and did not work, so permanent magnets are now used?
Just wondering.

I have never tried it.
The only thing that really suggests that is not a good idea is we are trying to create a OU device. So we are trying to take advantage of the free energy supplied by the magnets. So half the generator is already powered.
it would mean powering two coils not just one.
it would also complicit the design with brushes or slip rings this would also mean friction.

[MonsieurM]

I would just like to share with you an observation i made recently and it truly make sense :

more on this here, hope this helps : http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...netism-20.html

[quantumuppercut]

Just a question. What is the advantage of using a permanent magnet over using an electromagnet?

I see permanent magnets used on all these rotors, but so far have not seen any electromagnets used on the rotors.

It seems that the stationary generator coil would not know or care if the rotor magnet was a permanent magnet or an electromagnet.

Has this been tried before and did not work, so permanent magnets are now used?
Just wondering.

I've seen 2 Megawatts generator use electromagnets. I think on big industrial size electromagnets are better. They do use up DC current vs a permanent magnets.