Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[elias]

This effect reminds me of a video I saw of "The Magnet Man" dropping a disk shaped five pound neo onto a one inch thick Aluminum plate. The magnet landed flat from a one foot drop and made virtually no noise from impact, almost stopping from falling.

That is the same effect but this time instead of the magnet, the magnetic field is moving.

[Rubberband]

opposing fields

Hey everyone,

I found a few publications that investigate this levitating ring phenomenon. They suggest that claims referring to it simply being lenz law and/or phase shift are not correct. They suggest something else is happening. These publications are only 4 years old.

I found some of them at my University's Online Library. Because they are published in scientific journals I cannot post the full articles here, unless I find them freely distributed through a google search..


Here is one


And another (this one you can download)

Note that this article references others that explain the phenomenon. They would be good to look up as well.

This effect reminds me of a video I saw of "The Magnet Man" dropping a disk shaped five pound neo onto a one inch thick Aluminum plate. The magnet landed flat from a one foot drop and made virtually no noise from impact, almost stopping from falling.

[Shadesz]

Just a note for people who don't know. A sister thread has started discussing lenz law, what it is, and what the "delayed lenz" really is. (It isn't lenz law)

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/9436-lenss-law-what.html

[Shadesz]

An important excerpt from the second article I linked...

However, this result assumes that the ring is
purely resistive, which it is not. As it has some
self-inductance, this results in the current in the
ring lagging the applied field. The result of this
is a net upward force sufficient to levitate the ring.
If the current in the ring lags the applied field
by δ, then the upward force is proportional to
− ω sin(ωt ) cos(ωt + δ),
i.e.
12
[ω sin(2ωt) cos(δ)] + ω sin2(ωt ) sin(δ)
[cos(A + B) ≡ cosAcos B − sinAsin B].

The first term integrated over a cycle is zero,
but the second term is always positive, giving a net
upward force on the ring and hence the lift that is
observed.

This leads to the following conclusions:



the ring has some
self-inductance (which leads to a phase shift
of the induced current), is the correct
explanation of the observed behaviour.

I really really think we can use this even more then we already accidentally might be doing.

[Shadesz]

Hey everyone,

I found a few publications that investigate this levitating ring phenomenon. They suggest that claims referring to it simply being lenz law and/or phase shift are not correct. They suggest something else is happening. These publications are only 4 years old.

I found some of them at my University's Online Library. Because they are published in scientific journals I cannot post the full articles here, unless I find them freely distributed through a google search..


Here is one

The popular physics demonstration experiment known as Thomson's Jumping Ring (JR) has been variously explained as a simple example of Lenz's law, or as the result of a phase shift of the ring current relative to the induced emf. The failure of the first-quadrant Lenz's law explanation is shown by the time the ring takes to jump and by levitation. A method is given for measuring the phase shift with results for aluminum and brass rings.

And another (this one you can download)

together with circuit analysis of the
system. This then leads to the reasons for selecting
an aluminium ring of a particular size.

Note that this article references others that explain the phenomenon. They would be good to look up as well.

[qvision]

Thanks for link Thay

[Dave45]

Hi Dave,

what do you mean that it's a problem and you're not sure exactly how yet ?

Especially with regards to the magnet motor.

Cheers.

Lenz is a rotating electric field around the coil if it can be drawn off you will get electricity from it and it should stop dragging the rotor, Im working on the Don Smith device at the moment but finding the right answer will also apply to the magnet motor coils.
I will keep you informed when I find the answer.
Dave

[Shadesz]

Hello,
I am new here watching this dicsussion with great interest. I just saw this vid of Muller and the special core-material
Here we go ( low permeability and constant magnetic characteristics ):
Amorphous Magnetic Powder Core, Sell Amorphous Magnetic Powder Core,Amorphous Magnetic Powder Core,Magnetic Powder Core - Power Transmission & Transformer

Regards

eagle_0x

Welcome Eagle Ox,

Glad to have you around. Thanks for the link. Feel free to say whatever you want ideas are very welcome.

Shadesz

[thaelin]

Plasticare link

Here ya go:

Colorado Supplier of Cut Acrylic, Bar top Coating, Fiberglass supplies

I had my parts laser cut but they also do cut other ways. Do your own drawing as it will otherwise cost you $60 per hr for them to do it.

thay

[qvision]

Hi Dave,

what do you mean that it's a problem and you're not sure exactly how yet ?

Especially with regards to the magnet motor.

Cheers.

[Dave45]

The magnet motor and the Don Smith device have the same problem the current needs rectified, Im not sure exactly how yet but I will find the answer,
Rod you and Slider were using cfl's and getting strange results, I believe the cfl was rectifying the current just like the old vacuum tube rectifiers.
Dig deeper
Dave

[qvision]

... The acceleration under load may be Lenz drag out of balance in the core. its always about the core. The eddy currents in the core must unstable the Lenz in the coil. What if Lenz in the core and Lenz in the coil are at a different poll?

The right core material is important as far as minimising initial rotor drag, but i agree with Thane Heins in that the coil starts to act as a capacitor rather than a battery, storing inter-winding potential and therefore unable to build up the current to oppose the rotor magnet, hence delayed Lenz's Law.

My new wire should arrive tomorrow or the day after so that i can confirm whether or not a higher impedance coil can support a wider range of loads and possibly bring the rotor speed up to a higher one than what is achieved with an open coil with core.

With a coil like that, then each additional load that is added further increases rotational speed ...

[Dave45]

I am curious. if you have an idea present it. every idea ads something to the puzzle that leads to more research. Every day on this forum I learn something new. I have been doing coils for years and I always find some thing new that expands my knowledge and imagination.

pointed cores, well insulated, humor me , then I'll shut up.
shut me up.
Dave

[toranarod]

THANKS for the experiment that was really GOOD, It would be amazing if we could drive the rotor by using this force. May you measure the current input to your coil and see if the ring affects it or not?

Shadesz you have said is there away to use this effect. I think we already are.
I have been pondering using a shorted coil between to permanent magnets to creating some kind of in balance. If a rotor can be made to accelerate under load and we know it can by shorting the coil. The acceleration under load may be Lenz drag out of balance in the core. its always about the core. The eddy currents in the core must unstable the Lenz in the coil. What if Lenz in the core and Lenz in the coil are at a different poll? Is this why we see a reduction in drag.
We know the lenz drag is progressive. The more we load the coil the less drag is present if all other conditions are correct.
I have some more tests to run based on some thinking along this path.
These are ideas I once would have said where crazy and not possible but my world view of what I have always accepted has changed.

[toranarod]

Hey QV,

I do have a few diagrams based off phi ratios and other geometry and
have only gone as far as that. (although others are pushing me to try)
I was throwing this out there because of the references to 1.618 as a
ratio in coils and like you wonder "who" has tried it?


Regards
Zero

I am curious. if you have an idea present it. every idea ads something to the puzzle that leads to more research. Every day on this forum I learn something new. I have been doing coils for years and I always find some thing new that expands my knowledge and imagination.