Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[toranarod]

As promised, i would publish my findings, so here it is.
I havent read anything about this effect.
It looks on my scope pretty clear that the fight i have with my BEMF situation is not only because of the BEMF......
The off duty part on my scope was showing lots of waves and the coin didnt fall at first.
The pulse duration of my driving coils is pretty short. Not more then 25%.
The other part of the cycle seems to be taken by first the BEMF pulse and after that is acts as a generator coil!
When i was redirecting the BEMF, i was also using the generated power.
In the same process, i am generating LENZ!
With the Lenz effect in the second part of the pulse, the rotor slows down.
Then the pulse has to pull more on the rotor to keep it on speed and will pull more current!

You must have the same issues.......

Have we just done the same experiment?
What is your coil Core?
I tried this with 3 different types of cores and 4 different types of coils

[toranarod]

more Muller Work

If the only way to get acceleration under load is to short the coils completely then how do we get a voltage potential from the system and not incur Lenz drag?

This is one way that worked today on my Muller motor. I had test only one coil and when it was shorted it would increase the speed as we have expected to see.

If I switched the coil to dead short at the Peak of the wave form as you see in the photo below it was possible to collect the back EMF from the coil when the field expanded. Filling the capacitor to a higher voltage than the coils were generating.

All the time utilizing the effect of no Lenz drag. If we do this for all 18 coils it would be a large amount of energy, greater than input required driving it.

[mariuscivic]

If you haven't, try connecting the oppositely wound wires in series. In other words connect the start end of each wire (ie the ends on the inside of the coil) together and then the end side of each wire to the circuit (the ends on the outside of the coil). This would then be like you wound one layer clockwise and the other CCW, the third CW, the fourth CCW, etc. with the same wire. In that case the inductance should nullify each other. I suspect that while you wouldn't get any inductance, you also wouldn't get any current in the wires (or a very high voltage current). If you do get current without inductance... WAHOOOO!! It should be easy to build the circuit if you already have the coil. The results would be interesting.

Edit,
I think I said that wrong. By connecting two oppositely wound wires like that wouldn't you actually be making the electricity travel in one direction, but just as if you wound the wire in to the core and then in the same direction wound it out towards the outside (as if you weaved the layers together)? To get the inductance cancellation you would need to connect two parallel wound wires in the manner I have described.

Bifilar coil - eNotes.com Reference
So, I have a question for you guys that have tested bifilar coils, do you get any current out of a low inductance bifilar wound generator coil? It would seem to me that you wouldn't...?

As i said i have played withis type of coil and made very conection possible. Also i played with diods, leds, capacitors and other things. I could't find any magic there.If someone has such a coil please experiment; maybe you will find something that i missed

[stevie1001]

As promised, i would publish my findings, so here it is.
I havent read anything about this effect.
It looks on my scope pretty clear that the fight i have with my BEMF situation is not only because of the BEMF......
The off duty part on my scope was showing lots of waves and the coin didnt fall at first.
The pulse duration of my driving coils is pretty short. Not more then 25%.
The other part of the cycle seems to be taken by first the BEMF pulse and after that is acts as a generator coil!
When i was redirecting the BEMF, i was also using the generated power.
In the same process, i am generating LENZ!
With the Lenz effect in the second part of the pulse, the rotor slows down.
Then the pulse has to pull more on the rotor to keep it on speed and will pull more current!

You must have the same issues.......

[Shadesz]

Hi wattsup!

I've been playing with such a coil and didn't noticed anything new. It behaves like any normal bifilar coil

If you haven't, try connecting the oppositely wound wires in series. In other words connect the start end of each wire (ie the ends on the inside of the coil) together and then the end side of each wire to the circuit (the ends on the outside of the coil). This would then be like you wound one layer clockwise and the other CCW, the third CW, the fourth CCW, etc. with the same wire. In that case the inductance should nullify each other. I suspect that while you wouldn't get any inductance, you also wouldn't get any current in the wires (or a very high voltage current). If you do get current without inductance... WAHOOOO!! It should be easy to build the circuit if you already have the coil. The results would be interesting.

Edit,
I think I said that wrong. By connecting two oppositely wound wires like that wouldn't you actually be making the electricity travel in one direction, but just as if you wound the wire in to the core and then in the same direction wound it out towards the outside (as if you weaved the layers together)? To get the inductance cancellation you would need to connect two parallel wound wires in the manner I have described.

Bifilar coil - eNotes.com Reference
So, I have a question for you guys that have tested bifilar coils, do you get any current out of a low inductance bifilar wound generator coil? It would seem to me that you wouldn't...?

[mariuscivic]

@toranarod

For the generator coils, have you ever tried coils that are wound countering bifilar, meaning both wires start on the same side of the core but one is wound CW and the other CCW.

This is not the same as simple bifilar which is two (or more) wires wound in the same direction and will simply add the total drag field.

The counter bifilar should neutralize (that is not the best word - more like producing a null field) the field produced by the energized coils while still producing output. This would produce two polarities as the magnet approaches and two as it leaves.

wattsup

Hi wattsup!

I've been playing with such a coil and didn't noticed anything new. It behaves like any normal bifilar coil

[wattsup]

Do you mean something like this old circuit from Bits.
Vissie

Yes that shows countering but not bifilar. That one shows two distinct winds in reverse (outer versus inner). Countering bifilar would mean the wires would have to cross over and the winds are inter mixed. The final coil would be more oval shaped then perfectly round.

What happens usually is when the rotor approaches the coil, it energizes the coil and that energy creates the coil field from which the magnet now has to fight against to pass through. But with the countering bifilar, the magnet should still energize the coils but this time two fields will be generated as it approaches and these two fields will just create a neutral effect against the magnet and the same happens when the magnet exits the coils.

Maybe someone with a smaller wheel would want to try this and report here. I realize the bigger wheel with 14 gen coils would be more difficult but with some preliminary results off a smaller wheel, this may be a better avenue both for traditional driven wheels as well as wheels with central drives (out runner I think). lol

wattsup

[minoly]

@Minoly,

thanks for that vid. Is the rotor from a VHS machine ?

That's one of JB/Rick's kits from Renaissance Charge. I think they call it the Classic on their web page. I've always called it the 3PM kit three pole monopole.
Patrick

[nvisser]

@toranarod

For the generator coils, have you ever tried coils that are wound countering bifilar, meaning both wires start on the same side of the core but one is wound CW and the other CCW.

This is not the same as simple bifilar which is two (or more) wires wound in the same direction and will simply add the total drag field.

The counter bifilar should neutralize (that is not the best word - more like producing a null field) the field produced by the energized coils while still producing output. This would produce two polarities as the magnet approaches and two as it leaves.

wattsup

Do you mean something like this old circuit from Bits.
Vissie

[wattsup]

@toranarod

For the generator coils, have you ever tried coils that are wound countering bifilar, meaning both wires start on the same side of the core but one is wound CW and the other CCW.

This is not the same as simple bifilar which is two (or more) wires wound in the same direction and will simply add the total drag field.

The counter bifilar should neutralize (that is not the best word - more like producing a null field) the field produced by the energized coils while still producing output. This would produce two polarities as the magnet approaches and two as it leaves.

wattsup

[elias]

As I am waiting for my build skills to increase I can't test this on my own, so I hope some of you would be willing to try and test something for me.

This is for those who have a pulse motor and have seen a generator coil load cause acceleration to the motor. Can you do a simple test and report the results please?

Flip the connecting wires to the generator coil and re-test. Record and post the change in RPM vs the change in RPM in the original design.

My guessing is that you will not see an increase in RPM. Perhaps even a slowing down. If I am right I would love to share my theory why. This may help others achieve the acceleration effect that haven't been able to do so yet. As for now I don't want to crowd peoples minds with a theory without data.

Note: remember that if your generator circuit has diodes or led's you will need to flip those as well. Thanks in advance.

Actually I did a test yesterday, with a coil with a 16x16mm laminated core, The coil was about 350 turns of 0.7mm wire, I had problems with that so I need to do some other tests today.
The drag increases when you rotate the laminations from the flat position.

[qvision]

@Minoly,

thanks for that vid. Is the rotor from a VHS machine ?

I get this one going to 7K RPM @ 6 volts .5 amps while it is charging a battery.
in the vid it is only going 4100 RPM because I have 3 generator coils attached.
3PM Energizer on 6 Volts super-charging 12volts - YouTube
@ 12volts .9 amps while charging a battery it gets going to 20K RPM. it charges the secondary battery very nicely replenishing about 80% of the energy expended from the primary. this is not including the output of the generator coils. never had a problem with flying magnets on this build, they are pretty small though.

Patrick

[Shadesz]

As I am waiting for my build skills to increase I can't test this on my own, so I hope some of you would be willing to try and test something for me.

This is for those who have a pulse motor and have seen a generator coil load cause acceleration to the motor. Can you do a simple test and report the results please?

Flip the connecting wires to the generator coil and re-test. Record and post the change in RPM vs the change in RPM in the original design.

My guessing is that you will not see an increase in RPM. Perhaps even a slowing down. If I am right I would love to share my theory why. This may help others achieve the acceleration effect that haven't been able to do so yet. As for now I don't want to crowd peoples minds with a theory without data.

Note: remember that if your generator circuit has diodes or led's you will need to flip those as well. Thanks in advance.

[Shadesz]

Interesting. Thanks.

Has anyone else tried different lamination orientations? I know Rod mentioned he was going to try. Any others have any actual testing/data relating to the best orientation?

[elias]

Hey Elias,

Question. By flat do you mean that the laminations lay in parallel with the direction of the magnet? In other words, does flat mean that each layer of the laminated core has the magnet pass by it at the same time (all at the same time)?

Yes, but maybe it was because my laminations were vibrating a little bit.