Water Sparkplug

[gmeast]

hot again

Hi Greg,
I built the oscilator and one 2N3055 runs hot,(with sink), and one runs real cool. I checked the transistors as ok and even checked the gain of each and there about the same. I checked all parts and wireing and there ok. It pulls a little over 4 amps and puts out about 250 volts out of the vexes circuit. I was wondering if you might give me a clue as to what could be causing one 2N3055 to run over 160 degrees. I didn't leave it on but for about 30 seconds at a time. I do have 50 ohms on the bases of the 2N3055's and the 1 uf condensors across the 12K resistors on the other transistors. Any Idea???? appreciated. Bob

Hi again,

The 12K resistors go from the base of the PNP's to ground. The 1uF caps are by themselves from the PNP base / 12K ohm resistor connection to the opposite NPN's (3055) / 50 ohm / PNP collector connection. The 1uF caps don't actually go across anything. Your 50 ohm resistors are the 220 ohm resistors in the schematic. The 12 k Ohm resistor and the 1 uF cap are only common at the respective PNP's base. This might be the source of your problem.



Greg

[gmeast]

Hi Greg,
I built the oscilator and one 2N3055 runs hot,(with sink), and one runs real cool. I checked the transistors as ok and even checked the gain of each and there about the same. I checked all parts and wireing and there ok. It pulls a little over 4 amps and puts out about 250 volts out of the vexes circuit. I was wondering if you might give me a clue as to what could be causing one 2N3055 to run over 160 degrees. I didn't leave it on but for about 30 seconds at a time. I do have 50 ohms on the bases of the 2N3055's and the 1 uf condensors across the 12K resistors on the other transistors. Any Idea???? appreciated. Bob

Hi Bob,

Yes, I had one a little hotter than the other too. The spec for these reads 200 deg C ! That's allot. I have a fan on the 3055 heat sinks. Mine runs around 500 ma just sitting there. It draws about 6 amps at 4000 RPM. What transformer are you using? Everything is different for various transformers. The picture is of the one I'm using. I had to fiddle with the caps to get the frequency between 80 - 90 Hz. You can hit a 'bad' spot for the transistors withe the wrong transformer.

Greg

[Robert E.]

Osicilator

Hi Shane,

Oh yes, I would say that with 1ohm R1 you are mostly arcing the plug. Can you put a scope across C1 so you can SEE the charge / discharge event(s)? You don't need any more power flowing into C1 than than is required to just charge it up to about 3 or 4 time constants. This can be easily computed for your highest expected ignition frequency ... RPM. On my VW, I'm using 500 ohm and 2 uF. The scope trace below represents 4,000 RPM. The following trace was from an earlier lower voltage oscillator (200 VDC), but everything else is the same. It should look like this:

Onward and upward. Test and refine. Best of luck,

Greg

around 4,000 RPM

Hi Greg,
I built the oscilator and one 2N3055 runs hot,(with sink), and one runs real cool. I checked the transistors as ok and even checked the gain of each and there about the same. I checked all parts and wireing and there ok. It pulls a little over 4 amps and puts out about 250 volts out of the vexes circuit. I was wondering if you might give me a clue as to what could be causing one 2N3055 to run over 160 degrees. I didn't leave it on but for about 30 seconds at a time. I do have 50 ohms on the bases of the 2N3055's and the 1 uf condensors across the 12K resistors on the other transistors. Any Idea???? appreciated. Bob

[dllabarre]

checking...

Checking to see if this forum is working.
I saw a post yesterday that isn't here now.

DonL

[ashtweth]

Guys Naresh has been playing around with an ignition one
ImageShack - Image Hosting :: ignitioncoildioderevdeg0.gif

Ash

[gmeast]

values

My test setup is using a 22uf C1 and 1ohm R1. Needless to say I am having a lot of plug ware.... I am planning on using a 100ohm R1 and 10uF c1 on the next test setup. Hopefully that will take care of the plug ware issue.......

I'm still holding my breath for some Firestorm plugs.......

Hi Shane,

Oh yes, I would say that with 1ohm R1 you are mostly arcing the plug. Can you put a scope across C1 so you can SEE the charge / discharge event(s)? You don't need any more power flowing into C1 than than is required to just charge it up to about 3 or 4 time constants. This can be easily computed for your highest expected ignition frequency ... RPM. On my VW, I'm using 500 ohm and 2 uF. The scope trace below represents 4,000 RPM. The following trace was from an earlier lower voltage oscillator (200 VDC), but everything else is the same. It should look like this:

Onward and upward. Test and refine. Best of luck,

Greg

around 4,000 RPM

[Shane Jackson]

My test setup is using a 22uf C1 and 1ohm R1. Needless to say I am having a lot of plug ware.... I am planning on using a 100ohm R1 and 10uF c1 on the next test setup. Hopefully that will take care of the plug ware issue.......

I'm still holding my breath for some Firestorm plugs.......

[gmeast]

Yes, that's the resistor I was referring to. Maybe I should put a variable resistor and try to find a sweet spot, where dump cap will actually dump the charge instead of leaking it slowly. Do you have any idea what range should the variable resistor have?

As far as choke is concerned, I understand the principle, but I know nothing about them, besides that.

Hi demios,

I know that my system calculates out to 45 watts. I would definitely select 0-500 ohms variable power resistor rated for at least a 100 watts if you want to try to find the sweet spot by 'tuning'. Be advised that as you use less resistance, at some point the arc will SEEM to suddenly get better but in fact is starting to arc and you have gone too far. If you place an oscilloscope across the C1 (cap) you can watch the charge / discharge trace and determine exactly the right resistance for your highest ignition rate (RPM).

Be careful of HIGH VOLTAGE. Good luck,

Greg

[demios]

Yes, that's the resistor I was referring to. Maybe I should put a variable resistor and try to find a sweet spot, where dump cap will actually dump the charge instead of leaking it slowly. Do you have any idea what range should the variable resistor have?

As far as choke is concerned, I understand the principle, but I know nothing about them, besides that.

[gmeast]

resistor

Now, I have to tell you that my knowledge of electronics is pathetic but, I think the principle is sound. So, here's the circuit I "envisioned" that's supposed to increase the 13.5VAC (varies between 13.5VAC and 14.5VAC) off of the car alternator and send it through an isolation transformer (40x) that is connected to the voltage quadrupler and then to the dump capacitor rated at 3000V 680pF (3.06m Joules). The dump cap is not in the diagram:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dc/Voltage_quadrupler.svg

Output ranges:

13.5V x 40 x 4 = 2160VDC
14.5V x 40 x 4 = 2320VDC

As I read here: Jochen's High Voltage Page : Basic multiplier circuits we have to use capacitors and diodes that are rated DOUBLE in comparison to input voltage (13.5/14.5 x 40 = 540VDC / 580VDC). That means (just to be sure) 1500V rated caps and diodes for quadrupler construction. I also read that these voltage multipliers can be found in old BW TVs, you can also read that here (under "bridge circuit") Voltage doubler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

So, my question is, will this aid us in creating plasma spark (piggyback the existing spark, of course)? And, do we need a resistor between the quadrupler and the dump capacitor?

Thanks for your effort guys!

Hi demios,

This is worth looking at because a system like this, being tied to the alternator's speed, is proportional to the engine's ignition frequency and thus the power demand from the plasma circuit. The isolation transformer configuration is a natural for the plasma circuit I'm just not sure if it will 'buck' the induction spark. You should still need a resistor R1 between the multiplier and the CDI Cap C1 ... if that's the one you mean. The reason I think you still do is because it will allow the dump cap to mostly empty otherwise the multiplier will keep it filled up and the spark plug will just arc. The resistor could also be replaced by a choke, but I don't know how to design the correct inductor as its replacement ... any takers ? please.

Thanks for posting the information demios. Peace,

Greg

[demios]

Is this circuit functional and/or useful?

Now, I have to tell you that my knowledge of electronics is pathetic but, I think the principle is sound. So, here's the circuit I "envisioned" that's supposed to increase the 13.5VAC (varies between 13.5VAC and 14.5VAC) off of the car alternator and send it through an isolation transformer (40x) that is connected to the voltage quadrupler and then to the dump capacitor rated at 3000V 680pF (3.06m Joules). The dump cap is not in the diagram:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dc/Voltage_quadrupler.svg

Output ranges:

13.5V x 40 x 4 = 2160VDC
14.5V x 40 x 4 = 2320VDC

As I read here: Jochen's High Voltage Page : Basic multiplier circuits we have to use capacitors and diodes that are rated DOUBLE in comparison to input voltage (13.5/14.5 x 40 = 540VDC / 580VDC). That means (just to be sure) 1500V rated caps and diodes for quadrupler construction. I also read that these voltage multipliers can be found in old BW TVs, you can also read that here (under "bridge circuit") Voltage doubler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

So, my question is, will this aid us in creating plasma spark (piggyback the existing spark, of course)? And, do we need a resistor between the quadrupler and the dump capacitor?

Thanks for your effort guys!

[gmeast]

trying to figure it out

Greg, lets see if I can answer these questions. The spark I'm seeing is an added sparkplug running with the engine. The voltage from my current limiter is about 150 volt and the needle jiggles like it is getting pulses. I was scared to use a digital meter. My current limiter is only 5 ohms and the cap after that is 3 uf. My timing for charging and discharging is off I know. I tried a 500 ohm resistor and the spark was very week. I am learning here. When I rived the engine the spark stayed the same. I cain't remember if I checked the voltage with the engine rived up or not.???
Now as to how I protected the inverter. I had two transformers of 115 to 18 volts so I hooked them back to back so as to give 115 in and 115 out. I then put 60 diodes in series , (1N5408), to feed the voltage to the plug. I first tried a Black and Decker 400 watt inverter and it ran fine but when I shut it off it would not come back on for a few minutes.?? ( I was only pulling about 5 amps from the battery), It had a push on imbedded micro switch. I then tried my 1200 watt with a real switch on it and it ran ok. I got this inverter at Harbor freight. I have the parts to build the oscillator like yours but haven't got it built yet. I am just running the inverter to the transformers and then to a five doubler diodes set, five IN5408 in series. Two set of diodes to two 30 uf caps then to my 5 ohm current limiter to the 3 uf cap. I haven't figured out how to draw a schematic and put it on the forum yet. It's far from finished work yet I know. Bob

Hi Bob,

First I'd like to suggest the possibility that your doubler might not be supporting the throughput. To test this I'd like to recommend you bypass the doubler and replace it with a full bridge rectifier right out of your (essentially) isolation transformer. Also, your back to back xformers should have at least a 24 Watt rating ... 18 VAC @ 1.3A - 2.0A each. Even 150 VDC coming from the full wave bridge rectifier will blow up water mist. Your 5 ohm R1 might just cause arcing if things start to work and then you'll end up with a one-piece-plug all melted together. Try a 200 ohm resistor for R1. Too low a resistance R1 on C1 (cap) prevents C1 from discharging ... which is C1's primary function ... to discharge iow (stays charged all of the time).

If you are using the VexUs circuit then make sure the polarities are correct and the diode(s) point the right direction. Is your distributor a standard distributor with rotor and distributor?

I have included the basic circuit I first built without the doubler. I used a 100 watt store bought isolation transformer in its development. You should be able to home in on your component values with this. I have also included what the charge and discharge looks like on the cap C1. Obviously I'm showing only one spark plug and its diode ( that's actually 4 in parallel).

To me, it sound like the plug's demand

CAUTION: This might blow up cheap inverters and trigger ground fault on more sophisticated ones ... it's why I went to non-processor based, simple 4-transistor oscillator. I think the circuit doesn't like CMOS.

CAUTION: Please be careful of the high voltage.

Greg

[gmeast]

Fire Fingers

Hi all,

Sorry for all of the posts ... can't help it ... I got so excited about the plasma arc-induced D.I. Water electrolysis and ensuing hydrogen-oxygen reaction I put together a short video compilation of the clearest events to share.

It's not big enough to waste on YouTube so you can douwnload it or open it. It was made with Movie Maker in XP. It's very generic but much higher quality than gets rendered on YouTube.

http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/vexus_sequence.wmv

Thanks. Peace,

Greg

[Robert E.]

spark

Hi Bob,

Sorry, it's possible it didn't register when I read it. Most of the folks who built the original replication of Luc's Water Spark Plug had to use a bigger cap like 22uF - 100 uF to get the 'water explosion" effect. But that was driving it straight with wall voltage at 120VAC through a full bridge. I'm curious ... when you say your spark is not "huge" is that at RPM or single shots on the test bench? I know that if the pairing is not right for R1 and C1 then C1 can get starved if R1 resistance is too high or deliver too much current to the spark (arcing - on top of the C1 delivery) if R1 resistance is too low.

Another thing that bugged me for a long time was the doubler performance on my early system(s). I found that the doubler's output would sag horribly as the RPM (demand) increased if the caps weren't big enough or the diodes inadequate. Before I built the one in VexUs-6 my swing was from 450 VDC to 230 VDC at 3,000 RPM (demand) and the plasma arc would disappear, but now it's only 450 VDC to390 VDC (or so) and the arc is strong throughout 'my' full range of testing ... idle to 3200 RPM.

Can you please show me how you are protecting the inverter and how you have isolated the plasma circuit from inverter ... you might have something there if you're not blowing up inverters ... and you're running the VexUs circuit ... would love to know.

Take care,

Greg

Greg, lets see if I can answer these questions. The spark I'm seeing is an added sparkplug running with the engine. The voltage from my current limiter is about 150 volt and the needle jiggles like it is getting pulses. I was scared to use a digital meter. My current limiter is only 5 ohms and the cap after that is 3 uf. My timing for charging and discharging is off I know. I tried a 500 ohm resistor and the spark was very week. I am learning here. When I rived the engine the spark stayed the same. I cain't remember if I checked the voltage with the engine rived up or not.???
Now as to how I protected the inverter. I had two transformers of 115 to 18 volts so I hooked them back to back so as to give 115 in and 115 out. I then put 60 diodes in series , (1N5408), to feed the voltage to the plug. I first tried a Black and Decker 400 watt inverter and it ran fine but when I shut it off it would not come back on for a few minutes.?? ( I was only pulling about 5 amps from the battery), It had a push on imbedded micro switch. I then tried my 1200 watt with a real switch on it and it ran ok. I got this inverter at Harbor freight. I have the parts to build the oscillator like yours but haven't got it built yet. I am just running the inverter to the transformers and then to a five doubler diodes set, five IN5408 in series. Two set of diodes to two 30 uf caps then to my 5 ohm current limiter to the 3 uf cap. I haven't figured out how to draw a schematic and put it on the forum yet. It's far from finished work yet I know. Bob

[Raui]

Interesting Effect

This is probably slightly out of place as the bulk of you are discussing the engine however I only just was abit to obtain some diodes so I am trying a replication.

What I observed was when the diodes weren't connected it would spark the gap, when they were it wouldn't. I had left my multimeter on from testing my induction coil (It was set on 200v reading) settings.

When I closed the switch with the didoes from HV+ to LV+ the multimeter beeped (which it does when the potential difference between the probes exceeds 1000v). Bare in mind I checked that the leads weren't connected to anything and then I moved the leads well out of the way but I didn't move the multimeter. I still had the same effect in which the multimeter would beep.

Is this an effect of radiant energy, the diodes , something more elusive or something else? I could not give you circuit because my mother accidently kicked a lead when I called her over to look and the whole circuit came smashing to the ground

-Raui