My Motors got me to Tap into Radiant Energy

[prochiro]

Hello ntc
Yes there is. Both need separate power supply and the power to your boards circuit, if only 12 volts, ends up as at 10 or less to shoot to fets. This should be 15 to 18 volts so as to give fets a full 12 volts for hard slamming. Good work so far. There are a lot of details but you are chopping them up, one by one.
Dana

[ntc]

[JohnStone]

Hi ntc,
thanks for your detailed report! You are a thorough worker and got nice results up to now.
I asked for presence oscillations and resistive load because FET stages can oscillate by themselves contributing heat to the system. Please accept that a FET is not a kind of ideal high speed relay but a complicated pet with certain bad habits. In order to check the quality of the stage it is necessary to check it step by step. In teh end we want to have fast switchin gin order to stirr radiant as much as possible.
I assume you have :

• all leads to gates same length and as short as possible
• GND from oscillator to FETs twisted with gate lines or at least close and parallel
• Supplied your generator separated i..e by a wall charger
• Connected source legs short distance, massive and to a central massive GND point being the reference for all measurements (brass or copper screw if possible).
• Connected batteries (-) to reference point referred above.

Different setup will give unreliable results and less proceeding. The hiints above and below relate to the fact that even a low frequnecy pulsing initiates vast RF effects and they are not to be neglected at our setup.

TEST:
You should disconnect for now all circuitry from drain. For every step below you shall take notes and / or scope shots.

• Disconnect all FETs at drain and gate but one single guy.
• Let the driver run and measure at gate. Check for oscillations and rise / fall time of gate voltage. The circuit of the driver suggests to have faster switch off and possibly with oscillations.
• Connect second FET and recheck like above. rise / fall time shall be somewhat slower.
• Connect all FETs and recheck like above. It might be true that the LM339 driver is not strong enough for 4 FETs as their gate contains a parasitic capacitance of about 1nF....6nF
• Connect a car head lamp as load between battery (+) anf drains and recheck like above. You should know that FETs tend to backfire to gate having an impact to rise and fall time. Possibly oscillations occure in this test only.

If you are pleased with results you can go further, knowing that your driver stage is OK. This OK state is essential in order to have reliable results later on. I want all of you to succeed but it is very difficult to find a bug in the setup if you do not check it step by step with increasing complexity. It is very essential to relay to solid circuitry in order to research the unknown.
And threfore I am very penetrating - intentionally

I am occupied just now to take same measurements like above at monster driver V5.1 and I will post results along comments. Having your lab notes available you are able to compare and find possible weak properties.
JS

[ntc]

[ntc]

DIY Homemade Power Pulse Controller - RMCybernetics

[JohnStone]

backlash fom high spikes at drain pin(drain / gate capacitance - steadily opposing). And we want to check on how many FETs we can drive in parallel for monster to get more adult later on.
This 12A driver is not more than accelerating a hammer and hit the nail. A half pound hammer can hit with up to 8 tons - for shot time of course.
Other view: If you want to fill a 100 gallon vat (parasitic gate and drain cap) every hour it would be desirable to not use the normal water tap (NE555 driver or LM339/LM324)along long waiting time but a fire hyadrant (12A driver). Fortunately we can afford this electronic "fire hydrant".

We can control / tune switch speed by gate resistor. I will measure and post these effects as well.

The driver was designed in order to squeeze as fast switching out of current technology as viable regarding effort and price. Thus I hope to get as close to radiant effects as possible. Upcoming SiC technology will be even faster. In fact whne choosing FET types we need to negotiate between RdsON, darain breakdown voltage and switching speed. We can not have oll benefits at same time.
JS

[Cornboy 555]

I just NEW that would happen John, can't wait for you to populate and test a board, to see if maybe we need to use lower value pull down resistor on gate to make switching sharper.

My thought is, maybe in this board format, the 12a driver is a little over zealous.

Great News.

Warm Regards Cornboy.

[ntc]

[GChilders]

Monster boards

That's great news John. Let the testing begin.

Cheers

Garry

[JohnStone]

Surprise : Got Monster PCBs today fom Cornboy AND Oshpark
Starting with population just now. As suspected Oshpark delivers now double sided PCBs and those are a bit more difficult to solder because both sides suck heat from soldering iron. Later on I can compare both types of PCB.
Stay tuned.

BTW: I took an EAGLE class of 1 hour at youtube. I decided to do my next layout with EAGLE. They added an 3D export to Sketchup and a link to Element14 stock (Newark / Farnell). Now we can populate BOM with real component numbers for ordering anywhere. Additionally they have a link to LT-Spice from LT fordirect simulation from Eagle schematic.
Oshpark accepts Eagle files as source data. So we do not need any Gerber or Exellon export for this PCB manufacturer.
JS

[erfinder]

I think the energy is stored in dielectric in case of capacitor. I tend to visualize a capacitor like a resonant cavity with a lot of bouncing waves. The simplest way to prove would be to dismantle charged leyden jar and replace all metalic parts with the new one from uncharged jar.

Tha may also open a "worms can" because all electrostatics are based on the same concept....so if I'm right things would not look the same as in books. In electrostatics case the point would be to do all experiments in vacuum (obviously that is impossible without a labolatory).

The issue with protecting capacitor from overcharge from radiant energy is a big interest for me also. And here is the question : I know that the simple regulated DC supply could be made just with a zener diode and a power resistor, but the problem is the resistor placed in the power supply line limiting the output current after the capacitor. Could it be arranged in such way that the zener diode and resistor act only in case on overvoltage but not during the normal output processing ? !!! Imagine a power supply line going to capacitor and forward to load , with no resistor inline, while zener diode and power resistor in shunt to the capacitor - would that work in case of overvoltage ????

If you are seeing something going back to your supply, interpret it as a good sign! You just have to make sure that you know what it is that's returning, you have to find out whether its CEMF or if its inductive kickback. Hopefully you will find that its CEMF, if it is, then you win, if its inductive kickback, reconfigure so that its CEMF. It is imperative that you get the CEMF to charge the supply and not the inductive kickback (what you guys call radiant). Once you get the CEMF returning, learn how and when it will exceed the supply voltage, then learn to control it. Once you control it, then you can contemplate methods for "mixing" CEMF and inductive kickback.

It was suggested by John Stone that you insert a choke, I don't recommend this, what I recommend is that you place two diodes between your supply and the circuit that you are using to drive the motor (one diode on the positive leg, and one on the negative leg), then place a high value capacitor after those diodes. That is all you need to do, then watch the voltage on that capacitor. You will need to adjust the timing of the device you are driving and the pulse width that its being operated at. Doing so, depending on your configuration you should see an increase activity where you are collecting inductive kickback, or the cap which is across the power supply behind those diodes will charge to a higher value than the supply. I make no promise that you will see this in your setup, I see it in my machines, and have come to the conclusion that its due to the winding configuration that I use. However I made this post because it was stated that you or another poster is seeing something go back to the power supply and cause problems. This is good! You have to tame the beast.


edit..

I have been experiencing this phenomena for a very long time and now take advantage of it.

Here is a demonstration from about a year ago when I first found that beast that was blowing up my power supplies.

. - YouTube



Regards

[boguslaw]

I think the energy is stored in dielectric in case of capacitor. I tend to visualize a capacitor like a resonant cavity with a lot of bouncing waves. The simplest way to prove would be to dismantle charged leyden jar and replace all metalic parts with the new one from uncharged jar.

Tha may also open a "worms can" because all electrostatics are based on the same concept....so if I'm right things would not look the same as in books. In electrostatics case the point would be to do all experiments in vacuum (obviously that is impossible without a labolatory).

The issue with protecting capacitor from overcharge from radiant energy is a big interest for me also. And here is the question : I know that the simple regulated DC supply could be made just with a zener diode and a power resistor, but the problem is the resistor placed in the power supply line limiting the output current after the capacitor. Could it be arranged in such way that the zener diode and resistor act only in case on overvoltage but not during the normal output processing ? !!! Imagine a power supply line going to capacitor and forward to load , with no resistor inline, while zener diode and power resistor in shunt to the capacitor - would that work in case of overvoltage ????

[JohnStone]

[QUOTE=ntc;239922]

... I did notice you probably intend to use a regulated power supply in place of batteries I did this and damaged my PSU twice and the recommendation from the supplier was to insert a very large capacitor between the PSU and the motor/s I was driving as the spikes will keep damaging it.
...

Those caps will possible not get the energy stored because of their inductance and they might make your PSU unstable.
The right measure will be to add a choke in series to + and then the big cap.

Choke: any transformer. Connect the low voltage coil as choke coil and short circuit the high voltage coil. See Utkin where he explains how the inductance increases considerably when a winding is being shorted out. It is like adding a flywheel mass to the shaft of a motor.
If you have a transormer with 2 secondaries you connect one to + and the other to - and short ciruit HV winding as well. Thus you get a current compensated choke (common mode choke).
Alterntively you might find those chokes as well at washing machines, older computer monitors, MOV and other electric equipment. Scavenge
JS

[JohnStone]

@JS
Hi John
I have been thinking a lot about capacitors lately and am thinking in particular about the voltage ratings and the storage ratings farads microfarads etc.. Most high voltage rated caps seem to have fairly low storage ratings and most high storage caps 2000 to 3000 farads seem to have pretty low voltage ratings 2.5 to 2.7 volts. Does the low voltage rating indicate that a cap will burn out if it is hit with a burst of energy that is say in the 200 to 500 volt range or does this indicate that the cap after being fully charged will deliver 2.5 to 2.7 volts? And what triggers this release of stored energy in a circuit? I know that there is a common circuit called an R/C circuit that has a resistor in series with a capacitor that is used for smoothing the electric pulses in the circuit. Is this event triggered after the capacitor stores enough electricity to overcome the resistance? And how is it triggered in circuits that have no resistor?

Cheers

Garry

Hi Garry,
you hit a very interesting matter and I will explain some facts and add much more facts while you get a bunch of more questions . Do not ask me if you insist on one simple answer only!
In fact we learned out of the textbooks that a cap is an electrical storage bucket. By charging it we store there surplus of electrons at one side while other side of plates loose electrons. They flee because of electrons being present at input side.
I am not convinced that this model reveals the whole range of truth and useful applications. This notion was born 150 years ago and never was refined. Acording to Bedini a cap can convert radiant into charge. The discharge action gives useable hot energy. The notion is that the charging energy can originate from hot charging, radiant charging and ????? For current thinking model this is a nogo as it postulates that we know all details necessary to have an overview to whole matter.
If you ever saw at youtube what they do with Leyden jars you would be pondering much more. A Lyden jar is the very first cap they built at Leyden (Holland). Take a jar, add Al foil outside and inside and you have a cap. Tesla used bottles filled with salt water and dipped them into a vat of salt water and had a good cap as well - Tesla grade. OK, you have your leyden jar charged to say 10KV and now you decompose inner layer, outer layer and naked bottle. None of these 3 parts are charged now!!!! NONE!!! Do you still believe in St. Claus and electrons jammed on a plate of cap?
Then put together those parts and get a trimendous shock!

OK, charged cap has voltage because of electrons being eager to leave it. This property is called voltage. Thre is no trigger for this except we close any circuit by adding a resistor or a switch or any sort of circuit giving path from (-) to (+-) lead. Physically current flows from - to +. Therefore at a N-FET we have the "source" leg being bount to GND potential (battery -) because tehre electrones are "sourced" to teh FET.

Ratings: If we had an infinite good insulator between cap plates we wold not care for voltage. In real world caps use Mylar (polyester) foil, mica, polypropylene, aluminum oxide .... as insulator - being finite in insulating capacity. But we can not make insulation massive because the real capacitance relates to size of plates AND distance. And now you get your answer. We want to have small caps in size and therefore we need to negotiate for size (=> capacitance) and distance (=> capacitance AND voltage).
And please note that like a FET a cap contains some parasitic properties like inductance or resistance. Therefore not every applicatioin can use any cap. I.e. it is essential that any voltage regulator or IC owns a 100nF ceramic cap becaue they can source and sink amperes in short time. An electrolitic cap is somehow a big slow Hippotamus and is used for subsequent storage. The ceramic cap can be compared to a very agile meercat.

And now: overvoltage. At a certain voltage a cap suffers on break through of insulation. It will be punched. Some makes have then a real short and can explode. Others just evaporate the aluminum layer and still feel well while having an infinitesimal less capacitance after this event. They are self healing
The parasitic inductance of caps can act like a tank circuit and thus any cap owns a natural resonance area. If you hit this area in your circuit the cap makes all worse if you add it - no smoothing action. I.e. SMD caps resonate at about 100MHz.......500MHz depending on mechanical size and materials used. Electrolitics much much lower. Switcher PSUs suffer on this parasitic.
On the other hand if you go beyond resonance frequency (might be 500Hz at big electrolitics) they block frequency and claim to be not present in your ciruit. They hide their capacitance behind their parasitic inductance.
There is another issue: Depending on the leads and contacting areas inside a cap they can stand a cartain amperage only. This property needs to be taken in account if we want to store big energy flows like potential energy machines. Tantalum caps and electrolitics will simply explode AND possibly short circuit their plates. If the data sheet says 1A or 6A AC - please do not ignore it - different from God nature knows no grace or pardon.

RC circuit: It acs like a shock absorber. The wheel of your car gets a shock and stores kinetic energy (cap) and the shock absorber (R) tyies to smoothen the mechanical movement by converting kinetic energy to heat (like resistor). If you want to know what a cap does without a resistor think of a car wheel without shock absorber. It will eventually crash at end of movement area (short circuit).

The behaviour of most electronic components can be imagined by a mechanic counterpart. This helps for imagination.

• A cap represents an elestic force like a spring.
• A short circuit of a cap is liek a extended spring being snapped.
• The inductance represents the kinetic energy of a mass.
• Stopping current in a sudden corresponds to a mass being stopped - imagine a car hits a wall).
• Friction corresponds to a resistor (an heat converter).

I confess that only these imaginations make me preemt what a circuit does - reading it from the circuit diagram only. And of course there are limits where we need to calculate and measure.
Now continue pondering and asking - but do not expect simple answers!
JS

[ntc]

UPS cap protection

[QUOTE=iankoglin;239724]