My Motors got me to Tap into Radiant Energy

[JohnStone]

[QUOTE=ntc;239922]

... I did notice you probably intend to use a regulated power supply in place of batteries I did this and damaged my PSU twice and the recommendation from the supplier was to insert a very large capacitor between the PSU and the motor/s I was driving as the spikes will keep damaging it.
...

Those caps will possible not get the energy stored because of their inductance and they might make your PSU unstable.
The right measure will be to add a choke in series to + and then the big cap.

Choke: any transformer. Connect the low voltage coil as choke coil and short circuit the high voltage coil. See Utkin where he explains how the inductance increases considerably when a winding is being shorted out. It is like adding a flywheel mass to the shaft of a motor.
If you have a transormer with 2 secondaries you connect one to + and the other to - and short ciruit HV winding as well. Thus you get a current compensated choke (common mode choke).
Alterntively you might find those chokes as well at washing machines, older computer monitors, MOV and other electric equipment. Scavenge
JS

[boguslaw]

I think the energy is stored in dielectric in case of capacitor. I tend to visualize a capacitor like a resonant cavity with a lot of bouncing waves. The simplest way to prove would be to dismantle charged leyden jar and replace all metalic parts with the new one from uncharged jar.

Tha may also open a "worms can" because all electrostatics are based on the same concept....so if I'm right things would not look the same as in books. In electrostatics case the point would be to do all experiments in vacuum (obviously that is impossible without a labolatory).

The issue with protecting capacitor from overcharge from radiant energy is a big interest for me also. And here is the question : I know that the simple regulated DC supply could be made just with a zener diode and a power resistor, but the problem is the resistor placed in the power supply line limiting the output current after the capacitor. Could it be arranged in such way that the zener diode and resistor act only in case on overvoltage but not during the normal output processing ? !!! Imagine a power supply line going to capacitor and forward to load , with no resistor inline, while zener diode and power resistor in shunt to the capacitor - would that work in case of overvoltage ????

[erfinder]

I think the energy is stored in dielectric in case of capacitor. I tend to visualize a capacitor like a resonant cavity with a lot of bouncing waves. The simplest way to prove would be to dismantle charged leyden jar and replace all metalic parts with the new one from uncharged jar.

Tha may also open a "worms can" because all electrostatics are based on the same concept....so if I'm right things would not look the same as in books. In electrostatics case the point would be to do all experiments in vacuum (obviously that is impossible without a labolatory).

The issue with protecting capacitor from overcharge from radiant energy is a big interest for me also. And here is the question : I know that the simple regulated DC supply could be made just with a zener diode and a power resistor, but the problem is the resistor placed in the power supply line limiting the output current after the capacitor. Could it be arranged in such way that the zener diode and resistor act only in case on overvoltage but not during the normal output processing ? !!! Imagine a power supply line going to capacitor and forward to load , with no resistor inline, while zener diode and power resistor in shunt to the capacitor - would that work in case of overvoltage ????

If you are seeing something going back to your supply, interpret it as a good sign! You just have to make sure that you know what it is that's returning, you have to find out whether its CEMF or if its inductive kickback. Hopefully you will find that its CEMF, if it is, then you win, if its inductive kickback, reconfigure so that its CEMF. It is imperative that you get the CEMF to charge the supply and not the inductive kickback (what you guys call radiant). Once you get the CEMF returning, learn how and when it will exceed the supply voltage, then learn to control it. Once you control it, then you can contemplate methods for "mixing" CEMF and inductive kickback.

It was suggested by John Stone that you insert a choke, I don't recommend this, what I recommend is that you place two diodes between your supply and the circuit that you are using to drive the motor (one diode on the positive leg, and one on the negative leg), then place a high value capacitor after those diodes. That is all you need to do, then watch the voltage on that capacitor. You will need to adjust the timing of the device you are driving and the pulse width that its being operated at. Doing so, depending on your configuration you should see an increase activity where you are collecting inductive kickback, or the cap which is across the power supply behind those diodes will charge to a higher value than the supply. I make no promise that you will see this in your setup, I see it in my machines, and have come to the conclusion that its due to the winding configuration that I use. However I made this post because it was stated that you or another poster is seeing something go back to the power supply and cause problems. This is good! You have to tame the beast.


edit..

I have been experiencing this phenomena for a very long time and now take advantage of it.

Here is a demonstration from about a year ago when I first found that beast that was blowing up my power supplies.

. - YouTube



Regards

[JohnStone]

Surprise : Got Monster PCBs today fom Cornboy AND Oshpark
Starting with population just now. As suspected Oshpark delivers now double sided PCBs and those are a bit more difficult to solder because both sides suck heat from soldering iron. Later on I can compare both types of PCB.
Stay tuned.

BTW: I took an EAGLE class of 1 hour at youtube. I decided to do my next layout with EAGLE. They added an 3D export to Sketchup and a link to Element14 stock (Newark / Farnell). Now we can populate BOM with real component numbers for ordering anywhere. Additionally they have a link to LT-Spice from LT fordirect simulation from Eagle schematic.
Oshpark accepts Eagle files as source data. So we do not need any Gerber or Exellon export for this PCB manufacturer.
JS

[GChilders]

Monster boards

That's great news John. Let the testing begin.

Cheers

Garry

[ntc]

[Cornboy 555]

I just NEW that would happen John, can't wait for you to populate and test a board, to see if maybe we need to use lower value pull down resistor on gate to make switching sharper.

My thought is, maybe in this board format, the 12a driver is a little over zealous.

Great News.

Warm Regards Cornboy.

[JohnStone]

backlash fom high spikes at drain pin(drain / gate capacitance - steadily opposing). And we want to check on how many FETs we can drive in parallel for monster to get more adult later on.
This 12A driver is not more than accelerating a hammer and hit the nail. A half pound hammer can hit with up to 8 tons - for shot time of course.
Other view: If you want to fill a 100 gallon vat (parasitic gate and drain cap) every hour it would be desirable to not use the normal water tap (NE555 driver or LM339/LM324)along long waiting time but a fire hyadrant (12A driver). Fortunately we can afford this electronic "fire hydrant".

We can control / tune switch speed by gate resistor. I will measure and post these effects as well.

The driver was designed in order to squeeze as fast switching out of current technology as viable regarding effort and price. Thus I hope to get as close to radiant effects as possible. Upcoming SiC technology will be even faster. In fact whne choosing FET types we need to negotiate between RdsON, darain breakdown voltage and switching speed. We can not have oll benefits at same time.
JS

[ntc]

DIY Homemade Power Pulse Controller - RMCybernetics

[ntc]

[JohnStone]

Hi ntc,
thanks for your detailed report! You are a thorough worker and got nice results up to now.
I asked for presence oscillations and resistive load because FET stages can oscillate by themselves contributing heat to the system. Please accept that a FET is not a kind of ideal high speed relay but a complicated pet with certain bad habits. In order to check the quality of the stage it is necessary to check it step by step. In teh end we want to have fast switchin gin order to stirr radiant as much as possible.
I assume you have :

• all leads to gates same length and as short as possible
• GND from oscillator to FETs twisted with gate lines or at least close and parallel
• Supplied your generator separated i..e by a wall charger
• Connected source legs short distance, massive and to a central massive GND point being the reference for all measurements (brass or copper screw if possible).
• Connected batteries (-) to reference point referred above.

Different setup will give unreliable results and less proceeding. The hiints above and below relate to the fact that even a low frequnecy pulsing initiates vast RF effects and they are not to be neglected at our setup.

TEST:
You should disconnect for now all circuitry from drain. For every step below you shall take notes and / or scope shots.

• Disconnect all FETs at drain and gate but one single guy.
• Let the driver run and measure at gate. Check for oscillations and rise / fall time of gate voltage. The circuit of the driver suggests to have faster switch off and possibly with oscillations.
• Connect second FET and recheck like above. rise / fall time shall be somewhat slower.
• Connect all FETs and recheck like above. It might be true that the LM339 driver is not strong enough for 4 FETs as their gate contains a parasitic capacitance of about 1nF....6nF
• Connect a car head lamp as load between battery (+) anf drains and recheck like above. You should know that FETs tend to backfire to gate having an impact to rise and fall time. Possibly oscillations occure in this test only.

If you are pleased with results you can go further, knowing that your driver stage is OK. This OK state is essential in order to have reliable results later on. I want all of you to succeed but it is very difficult to find a bug in the setup if you do not check it step by step with increasing complexity. It is very essential to relay to solid circuitry in order to research the unknown.
And threfore I am very penetrating - intentionally

I am occupied just now to take same measurements like above at monster driver V5.1 and I will post results along comments. Having your lab notes available you are able to compare and find possible weak properties.
JS

[ntc]

[prochiro]

Hello ntc
Yes there is. Both need separate power supply and the power to your boards circuit, if only 12 volts, ends up as at 10 or less to shoot to fets. This should be 15 to 18 volts so as to give fets a full 12 volts for hard slamming. Good work so far. There are a lot of details but you are chopping them up, one by one.
Dana

[JohnStone]

Hi ntc,
The circuit to study is in thisV5.1 PDF. I took Cornboy publicly with me and posted the sequence of building and testing. Later on I will add my posts to PDF in order to issue a final version. But before I will do thorough measurements in order to verifiy all features requested. Up to now I found the micrel driver to be amazingly fast. This night I got 5ns rise time at free run and +1ns with one gate connected. This suggests that switching losses will be neglecteble even at high current. and we will be able to drive more than 2 FETs at a time. That is good news!!!!

Regarding separate feeding the driver / oscillator.
GND:
Any circuit is not restricted to DC or low frequency but has all capabilties of RF. Usuall this is of no concern for blinking LEDS and similar actions. But our setups produces a vast amount of RF distubance and therefore we need to obey some precautions in order to get them below severe disturbance.
BTW: We never would be allowed to sell those circuits commercially because of regulations because they are wild RF transmitters.
One major intrusion of RF and artifacts rom high current is a bad GND system. Therefore I recommnd to have ONE central MASSIVE GND reference where you connect source legs of FETs, GND of motor GND of battery and GND of driver. ONE single point where the leads arrive in star shape.
In audio applications you get humming if you do not obey those rules. Apart that you have the guarantee that you have no displacement currents traveling any unkonwn trace on GND level causing voltage differnces.

You might consult this site additionally.

Supply:
similar but not so desasterous your power supply (+) behaves. It is bad habit if you share any PSU line of your oscillator / driver with high current traces. Therefore I suggest to use a simple cheap wall charger (or separated battery as separated PSU for oscillator, driver freeing it from any other part of pulluted areas of power circuit.

I suggested 15 Volt minimum in order to get 12V regulator performing well. But 18V or even 24V or 30V will be OK. Please check voltage regulators for heat at higher voltage. One issue to be measured will be if we get any advantage by increasing 12V to i.e. 15V at gate driver. I doubt it but I do not know just now.

As we investigate the unkown we need to eagerly build our setups in order to not generate multiple dirty artifacts thet cover our sweetspot we search for. Ic we can control the previously unkonwn we can check on how we can simplify i.e the supply circuits. The rule I to change only one parameter at a time and study its effects. But if you have a dirty setup you never will be able to study or control one singel parameter because you will have a feedback from power circuit and you will not suceed. Imagine the feedback of a speaker to the microphone... teh setup does well within certain limits und will runaway above a certain feedback rate. But at ouer setups we will not listen to feddbacks - we stand there blindly and disturbed.

If you rework your circuit you may post a pic in order to enable me to comment. And feel free to ask. There are no silly questions but answers. The major goal isfor you to learn in order to enable you performing well by yourself.
My concern ist to give all of you a solid basis in order to succeed.

EDIT: I just measured my Micrel driver with scope and found oscillations. I replaced the GND lead of the probe by a very short wire and most of them were gone. Please note that such a wire of some inches causees disturbance. Therefore keep all wires as short as possible!!!! The best smooting of signals is to prevent disturbing them.
JS

[JohnStone]

Today I retracted to my lab with a special brand of wine

Cheers Cornboy! Excuse please, I had to rotate the bottle about 120 degree regarding origin in order to align it to my glass!
and spend nice time with monster driver while taking thorough measurements.
Current and future results will be found at lab note LN006. Up to now I took all essential scope shot along explanations but FET not being loaded at drain pin. My procedure is to go step by step in order to not mix artifacts making me blind for causes.
Adding load will be somewhat more complex because load (especially load spikes) backfire to gates opposing driver actions. Another concern will be to prove protection circuit to act at strains as expected.
I hope you can understand my explanations - else ask!
Cheers!
JohnStone