Peter Daysh Davey Water Heater Query

[evolvingape]

Type K High Pressure Thermocouples

I have added some new information in the other thread reply #79 that is relevant here, high pressure housings need high pressure temperature sensors, and for resonance investigation of superheated water that is what you are going to need, so have a look if you are interested:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2781-wood-gasification-3.html#post184461

Rob

[evolvingape]

I put this out there ages ago because I did not have time to develop it as a HHO cell to compete with efficiency of dry cell HHO designs, however a lot of my work is based around the everyman wet cell design for pressure applications and on demand fuel processing, will also work very well as an electrode boiler:

Everyman HHO Cell

If your dealing with anything more than low HHO expansion pressure you will need this. Dry cell designs are low pressure only as the seals will blow out. Still needs more development for pressure applications (electrical isolation under very high pressure without any plastic or rubber) but I am not going to be working on this for a while. Need a rest.

Here is a list of my other stuff which has handy info sprinkled liberally throughout, might find what your looking for there:

Phoenix Turbine Builders Club Forum

RM

[evolvingape]

Superheated Electrolysis and Adiabatic Compression

You might find this interesting:

Superheated Electrolysis and Adiabatic Compression

You can experiment with the sonic boiler and resonance phenomenon using superheated water. Hydrogen bonds break down at the higher temperatures so you may get different results to water at atmospheric pressure. I designed this for HHO production but it was not until Chet invited me over to this thread that I found out about AC electrode boilers, which was the missing part of the puzzle I needed to make it happen. So thanks Chet, and Slovenia, and everyone, it was really helpful!

You might find this information interesting as well:

Thermal runaway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thermal runaway refers to a situation where an increase in temperature changes the conditions in a way that causes a further increase in temperature, often leading to a destructive result. It is a kind of uncontrolled positive feedback.

J. Appl. Phys. 85, 3774 (1999); Thermal profiles and thermal runaway in microwave heated slabs (6 pages)

C. A. Vriezinga

This oscillation, combined with the heat loss, is found to be responsible for thermal runaway phenomenon in isothermal objects.

J. Appl. Phys. 83, 438 (1998); Thermal runaway in microwave heated isothermal slabs, cylinders, and spheres (5 pages)

C. A. Vriezinga

This is caused by the specific characteristic of the dielectric loss factor of water, which decreases with increasing temperature. This results in an almost constant absorption of energy over the whole slab without disturbing the wave character of the absorption. It turned out that this smoothing of the absorbed power plays a dominant role in the calculations of the temperature profiles. Any calculation where the temperature dependence of the permittivity is omitted, will not only pass the phenomenon of thermal runaway, but its temperature profiles will differ substantially from the ones where the temperature dependence has been taken into account.

Dielectric Loss definition of Dielectric Loss in the Free Online Encyclopedia.Resonance in the Atmoosphere of Enceladus

The forces behind the giant ice crystal plumes of the geysers of Enceladus are unmistakable in this context due to the fact that the geysers are aligned in parallel rows! The water venting at these geyser sites is superheated by the intense infrasound resonance of Enceladus, which focuses the equatorial pull of Saturn into a north-south polar axis, heating the south polar region.

The ejected superhot water immediately forms fine ice crystals which are raised high above the surface as plumes along the wavepaths of standing infrasound (animated above). The individual geysers display a Fibonacci-ordered distribution pattern as measured along the 'tiger stripes' which reveals the driving presence of nonlinear standing waves, the exact frequencies of which may be determined by measuring the exact distances between the individual geysers.

This same phenomenon of infrasound stimulated water vapor plumes was also recently photograhged off the California coast at Aliso Beach. The infrasound standing wave resonance pattern based on the quantum iterated function [ zn+1 = zn^2 ] are observable in galaxies, quasars, the solar corona and in the atmospheres of Earth, Jupiter, Uranus, Saturn and its moons Eceladus and Titan.

PicoTwist

Forces involved at the biological level

Have fun!

RM

[boguslaw]

Charging water with Singing Bowl - YouTube

"Charging water in a tibetan singing bowl... Water does have a memory, and can be energized... I show this by how the water will respond... Notice howlong it takes to charge it the first time... But after stopping it and starting over, how much faster it picks up the previous vibration... This means the water has got some kind of memory (it holds the influence of vibration) .. Also notice, that once this point is reached, the increase of energy goes much faster after this first charge.

Have fun watching, and tell me your ideas about his, and what to do with it"

thank you

[evolvingape]

Martin Chaplin

For those of you wondering who is the author of a lot of information I reference regarding water, his name is Martin Chaplin, Emeritus Professor of Applied Science at London South Bank University:

Martin Chaplin

Reference #1 of this Wikipedia page is:

Superheated water - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Chaplin, Martin (2008-01-04). "Explanation of the physical anomalies of water". London South Bank University. Retrieved 2008-01-15.

Here is one of his papers that is most interesting for those interested in water's relationship to life and it's hydrogen bonding network:

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0706/0706.1355.pdf

RM

[evolvingape]

Warm water vibrates longer than cold water

Explanation of the Phase Anomalies of Water (P1-P12)

It is expected that the lifetime of an excited molecular vibration should decrease as the temperature increases as the energy and likelihood of interactions with other molecules also both increase. For example, the lifetime of the excited liquid HCl stretch vibration decreases from 2.1 ns at 173 K to 1.0 ns at 248 K.

In liquid water, the excited OH-stretch vibration has a lifetime of 0.26 ps at 298 K and this lifetime increases to 0.32 ps at 358 K [592]. The reason for this is due to the effects of the hydrogen-bonded network. The OH-stretch vibration normally relaxes by transferring energy to an overtone of the H-O-H bending vibration. However, as the temperature increases the hydrogen bonds of water get weaker, which leads to an increase of the frequency of the stretch vibration and a decrease of the frequency of the bending vibration. As a result, the overtone of the bending mode shifts out of resonance with the stretching mode, thereby making the energy transfer less likely.

Keep in mind that you may have to "hit a moving target" as the variables change through time

RM

[PhysicsProf]

Thanks for the vids, Rob, especially the one on resonance.

Yesterday evening, 28 Feb 2012 -- I performed some experiments involving BOILING, both in the control experiment (using an electric kettle and bringing a measured amount of water to boiling) and with my two-bell sonic boiler (2BSB).

CONTROL run was instructive. Attached photos show the Kaloric electric kettle once again. Note that the jug can be simply removed from the electric-power-supply-base. This makes measuring the weight of the jug and jug+water (shown on the right) straightforward, with no cord to worry about. The weight/mass scale can handle up to 5000 g, which is plenty for these experiments (so far).

Measuring the weight of the jug+water, I was rather surprised at how much evaporation took place AFTER boiling had been reached, if the jug was left sitting with lid opened. Tens of grams evaporated over a period of about a half hour, observed.
Also, water mass is lost during the warm up to near 100C also. These are important effects, significant to the measurement of efficiency. I can see how ERRORS could easily be made! Water spitting out of the vessel (as water, not steam) is another potential problem causing measurement error.

Having observed the magnitude of these easy-to-make errors, I re-emphasize that any claims of ou need to be checked by an independent person or lab. And a CONTROL absolutely MUST be run, the same way that the DUT run is performed.

I found using the control that if I would first heat the water to near boiling with the lid closed, then weigh the vessel, then proceed with boiling -- then weigh again, the input electrical energy agreed with the output heat as determined from the mass evaporated:

Qevap = 2261 J/g * delta-mass (the mass of the evaporated water)

As Nerzh showed, since 3600 J = 1 W-hr, then we can express this equation for Qevap in terms of W-hours:

Q evap = 2261J/g *1 W-hr/3600 J * delta-mass

= 0.628 W-hr * delta-mass in grams.

For the control run, heating the water using the Kaloric electric kettle itself plugged into the energy meter, the mass just before the 2BSB run was 1991g and just after, 1947g, for a mass change of 44g. So

Qevap = 0.628 W-hr * delta-mass in grams = 0.628 * (1991g - 1947g) = 29.5 W-h (output energy).

The input electrical power I measured with a watt-hour meter, which I calibrated recently by measuring temperature rise in water and determining Q that way, see equation in an earlier post, as well as comparing with another brand of watt-hour meter for consistency. The watt-hour meter that reads down to 0.1 W-hr is about 4% high, so that is a minor correction easy to make.

The input power was then measured as 29.8 W-hrs for the control, which is in very good agreement:
calculated efficiency is n = energy-out/energy-in = 29.5/29.8 = 99%.

I like this method, then I applied the same approach, weighing the water before and after and this time using the 2bellSB, and found:

Qevap = 0.628 W-hr * delta-mass in grams = 0.628 * (1742g - 1700g) = 26.4 W-h (output energy).

The input energy from the calibrated energy meter = 22.3 W-h, so there appears about 18% excess energy during boiling, using the 2-bell device I built. Scientific caution here: needs more testing, more data.

Of course, I ran the experiment again, longer this time. Unfortunately -- there was a bright flash and a circuit breaker was thrown. I found that the data on the energy meter was lost... I found the scar where one bell had managed to touch the other, no doubt under the force of steam pressure between the bells. I can recover, but that's all for now... Note that vigorous boiling was occurring just before the pop.

I'm planning to build another 2-bell system, this time with holes in the tops of the bells to allow steam to escape more readily. Is anyone else still doing experiments of this type?

I do think that the sonic boiler works "better" while producing steam, based on others' comments and my own experiments. Kinda fun...

[evolvingape]

Vortex tubes, interesting technology, temperature separation in fluid flows and harmonic frequencies observed:

http://alexandria.tue.nl/extra2/200513271.pdf

RM

[evolvingape]

You might find this video interesting Professor:

Forced Oscillations and Resonance | MIT Physics Lecture

A nice demonstration at about 10 minutes helps visualise processes occurring in resonant systems.

I am just going to add this link as it relates to the air spring heater idea I talked about a while back, the idea being that air is compressible and at resonance has a very large amplitude. This should focus the temperature increase over a small area in contact with the water, which is incompressible.

Weekend Project: Fire Piston - YouTube

Rob

[PhysicsProf]

Thank you, quantumuppercut:

Nice work professor,

I like your approach, slow but solid. Suppose we just jump to the bad fluke and depends on those data which gives 76%, it would be unfair. What even worse is if that bad reading was 97%. lol

This is an example how the community can gain reputation from mainstream, succeed or not.

Well said.

Today I did some testing with a build I did using 2 "bells", chemistry crucibles with a hole drilled in the each base, joined together at the bases with a nylon bolt + nylon nuts and spacer. See photo on the right. The distance between bells is approx. 1 cm, OD of the outer bell is 6 cm. The pitch of each bell when struck is approx. B-flat (compared with the tune on my piano), roughly 240 Hz. The mains provided 120 V and the input power was measured by two "kill-a-watt" meters in series -- approx. 1200 W during operation in water.

I ran with the bells until the energy meter registered 0.01 kW-hr (= 36,000 J) input energy, then I took temp. measurements.

For the control -- described also above -- I used the built-in coil of the electric kettle, shown in the photo on the left.

The water volume was measured at 1222 ml using a graduated cylinder.

I observed temp rise of 7.0 deg C for 36kJ input electrical energy; so we find:

Qinto-water = 4.186 * 1222g *7.0C = 35.8 kJ.
Efficiency = 35.8/36.0 = 99%.

Consistent with unity... can't get much closer. Control run with the SAME water, using the built-in resistive coils in the Kaloric vessel, gave the same result...

Overall, to be expected -- but I sure would like to try a WORKING Davey device! I'm still trying...

[quantumuppercut]

Nice work professor,

I like your approach, slow but solid. Suppose we just jump to the bad fluke and depends on those data which gives 76%, it would be unfair. What even worse is if that bad reading was 97%. lol

This is an example how the community can gain reputation from mainstream, succeed or not.

[PhysicsProf]

This is fine if you are trying to determine a physical constant to
three decimal places. It is expensive and complicated.

The bottom line is that, at the moment, we need to know two
things:
1. Is the equipment runing at a COP > 1
2. Roughly what that COP might be.

That's all.

There is no need to put people off with all that complexity.

I beg to politely differ. Based on the data I presented above, one of the temperature probes -- a borrowed Fluke Type-K thermometer -- turned out to be WAY OFF! And it slowed my experiments way down also, until I checked with other temp-probes and determined the problem.

The main problem was that the (Temp-final minus Temp-initial) was way off, so the calculation of efficiency was way LOW. The redundancy is to MAKE SURE THE INSTRUMENTS ARE PROPERLY FUNCTIONING, not to " determine a physical constant to
three decimal places."

OK?

Also, it is not expensive -- I paid $11.96 (including shipping) for this:
Taylor 9842 Commercial Waterproof Digital Thermometer
Sold by Amazon.com LLC (Amazon.com)

Worked great! I checked it with a Type-K thermocouple thermometer from China that cost me $11.66. (Much cheaper than a Fluke!)
Ebay, New K Type Digital Thermometer Temperature Sensor
Price: $11.66, TES 1310.

[wrtner]

I wish to emphasize the following I've
learned from these control experiments:
Have redundant (preferably at least 3) temperature-probes, to check
against each other...

This is fine if you are trying to determine a physical constant to
three decimal places. It is expensive and complicated.

The bottom line is that, at the moment, we need to know two
things:
1. Is the equipment runing at a COP > 1
2. Roughly what that COP might be.

That's all.

There is no need to put people off with all that complexity.

[PhysicsProf]

I wish to emphasize the following I've learned from these control experiments:

1. Have redundant (preferably at least 3) temperature-probes, to check against each other to make sure there is not a problem in temperature measurements (as I found with the old Fluke K-type that I had borrowed).

2. I also use two energy-monitoring meters as described in post #1, and I've ordered one more. Again, its important to check the input energy by redundant measuring devices.

3. The water needs to be stirred vigorously after (or during) a heating run, before taking temp measurements. Even so, it seems wise to have the temp-probes in different locations, and to compare results obtained with the two probes.

4. A "standard" electric kettle makes a convenient control and gives efficiency near unity. (I have three of these now, in different sizes.)

5. Record data and questions in a bound log-book.

6. Measure water volume using a graduated cylinder -- I have a 500 ml graduated cylinder and some smaller ones. I found that the electric kettle markings are not completely accurate, when I filled each kettle with [2 times 500 ml] from the graduated cylinder.

I hope this is helpful to others.

[PhysicsProf]

For several weeks, I have been experimenting with heating measured amounts of water to determine output energy, using a control resistive heater; also with a few configurations of the "Davey-type Sonic Boilers". Time to report some results and what I've learned about calorimetry controls.

Nerzh Dishual is abreast of the situation as well, and has been doing related experiments in Brest, France. (Sounds like a great place to visit, Nerzh! I've been to France quite a lot in years past, but not to your town yet...) Hopefully he'll describe some of those tests and experiments which he has done.

The method is quite straightforward, applying the equations:
Qheating = 4.186 J/g-degC * mass of water heated * (Tfinal - Tinitial)

and for water vaporized, we have:
Qvaporization = 2260 J/g * mass of water vaporized.