Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[toranarod]

Hi guys!
I found an usefull thing (maybe you did too so if you did please ignore this)
Every time i connect i diferent load to the same gen coil, i have to adjust the position of the hall sensor for best output under load

Also I have done what WATTSUP suggested me and couldn't find anything interesting

I think what you have observed is very important.
This is why I installed a independent drive motor. The out runner.
I had a felling I was giving conflicting results. Lenz was changing the timing
I felt the drag was moving the load on the drive coil and this was like a feed back loop causing the drive to compensate by increasing current to the drive.
This may have been why RPM would increase under Lenz drag My results where being interpreted incorrectly. there are so many contributing conditions with the system. We need to be 100% sure of our results.
My pule Width is not effected by rotor RPM so how could the timing change
by changing the load. ONLY one answer? Duration time of the magnets inductance of the drive coil. Change the inductance and it changes the speed by drawing more current from the supply. I just couldn't prove it by introducing drag from another source. I tried placing a small brush next to the rotor to create drag. I hope this explanation is understood. It was hard to get my head around to explain But there was a problem. So I ditched the drive coil.

This work is about the generator not the drive. Once we have sorted the generator coil physics we can work on the drive as an added extra.

[wattsup]

Maybe wattsup was hinting at this type of arrangement. There should be a transistor switch in the negative line, I forgot to draw it.


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This type of thing can increase the current through a coil at almost any frequency up to a point I guess. The de-Q-ing diode prevents energy returning to the source. If it's left out it can still work.

I would guess at the optimum frequency it would really take off.

There would be formulae for determining the values for the desired effect.
Current will inrease with power though. As far as I can tell.

@Farmhand

What I am trying to do is push guys to look further into the drive coils. Adding that second coil, if with the right inductance should push the pulse all the way through the first drive coil because the pulse will think both coils are one coil. It is a little more complicated then then that but this would sum it up. Your diagram is also a good idea.

But here is something else. Look at the drive coil, the number of turns, the number of layers, the wire gauge, how it is wound single wire of bifilar or multifilar or even counter-bifilar. The drive coil has to accomplish two major tasks. First it must attract or repulse a rotor magnet with the maximum punch possible and second by using the least amount of energy possible.

Now look at the Romero coils. Thin wire, many turns over many many layers, layer upon layer. Compare that to a Muller coil of heavier gauge wire, few turns and few layers.

I think Muller understood one major factor after many years of experimenting and came up with his pyramid design, one because he had to find a way to make his coils survive the brutal beating those huge magnets were giving and second he released that voltage is not really what is required to produce a motive magnetic field which in essence is how to produce one strong polarity. Notice how the first layer on his coil goes right to the end and the others layers are held back. This is one way of doing it, but there are other ways.

Take a Romero drive coil. Already with the first layer of wire on the core you have set the perfect situation to produce a pure north and south polarity. Now you continue to wind the next layer starting from where the first layer stopped and working the wind towards the other side. Now what did you produce in terms of a pure polarity on each side of the core. There is no pure polarity but only what I would call an RMS polarity or a mixed polarity on each side but each side still having enough of one polarity to be distinct from the other polarity. So from layer two you continue from that same end to turn the wire until you reach again the end of the core. Again the pure polarity is being diluted but again you have enough to have each be seen as distinct when using a compass. But what is happening is the more layers you put on that core, the more you will dilute the pure polarities.

What I mean by pure polarities is simple. With only one layer, the question is obvious that each end will have their own polarity and when you energize the coil with a compass, you will see the needle turn and stay dead on target to the coil polarity. The more layers you wind and when you do the same thing, the compass needle will turn towards the polarity but sway as if there is some looseness in the strength of the polarity. This swaying indicates that there is a fight going on where there should be no fight. The polarity needs to be categorical and absolute for it to impart its maximum punch to the rotor magnet. Also with so may turns, the only thing you can use is voltage to create the field and not amperage because the wire will not permit any more then it is capable through its complete length. So in my observation of a drive coil, having one wire going multilayer is not good and even if it is bifilar or multifilar this does not change the overall effect. It reduces it somewhat because you have less total turns with more wires per turn but it will still suffer from a non-pure polarity condition.

So what I am thinking is a half/half solution using Mullers idea of one layer. So you wind one layer then cut the wire. Then you wind a second layer in the same way as the first and cut the wire. Then a third and cut the wire and so on until you reach the number of layers you want. If you have 10 layers, you will have 10 wires on each end of the core. Then you parallel those wires and pulse. Now what will that create. It will create 9 multiples of the first layer pure polarity. I think this is how the drive coil should be wound. If you want to produce a coil that kicks ass, wind it to kick ass.

Now when you pulse this multi-single layer drive coil, the pulse enters one side of the core and not on the inner layer or outer layer like when you have a one wire multi-layer coil. Think of the ramifications. If you put the pulse on the side of the coil that is nearest to the rotor magnets, the pulse will start at its peak power availability right where it is needed to push or pull on that magnet.

Now if you want a drive coil for the other side of the rotor with the pulse going again to the core end nearest the magnet, then you will have to wind the drive coil on the other side of the wheel in the reverse manner. With four drive coil in two pair, you will need two wound closkwise and two wound counter-clockwise.

In my previous post, I indicated pulsing the inner layer to repulse and the outer layer to attract. This is applicable with the coils you guys have now. But if you wind a drive coil as per the above, this no longer applies since now the actual physical wind of the coil is producing a pure polarity attribute that does not start from inner to outer, but from one end to the other like it should be in such a motive requirement.

I think this is enough to get some of you going into newer ways.

wattsup

PS: Sorry for posting so much stuff. Hope this is not detracting any of you. As per the question I asked above about zenor diodes, here is another angle. What if each diode of the FWBR was two diodes. Not like Romero made each two diodes in parallel, but by making each two diodes in series. I made a diagram below to explain it better.

[wattsup]

Hi guys!
I found an usefull thing (maybe you did too so if you did please ignore this)
Every time i connect i diferent load to the same gen coil, i have to adjust the position of the hall sensor for best output under load

Also I have done what WATTSUP suggested me and couldn't find anything interesting

@mariuscivic

About readjusting the hall sensor, yes, I am also expecting that to happen and will have the hall senors on sliding adjustable base to get the best locations under different loads. If you increase or decrease load, you change the drive to sensor timing/momentum where the sensor gets activated to initiate the drive coil to catch the next magnet just in time to push it or attract it forward. This is also one of the reasons it is best to have one more magnet then coils and not one less like in most builds. One more magnet is actually two more then there is now and this will give you greater chance to fight against any drag when the wheel slows down and hall sensor activation gets tighter. It will cost more energy because your will have more pulses for the drive coil but it will also produce more juice because you will have more and faster gen coil passage.

My snow blower has a special lever that moves to readjust the carburetor when blades are moving snow or when they are just idling. Without that lever action, the force cannot increase to compensate for the added load of moving the snow so you get weak snow throw.

Regarding adding a coil to the drive coil, you may try some other coils as maybe the one you had in your hand did not have enough winds. The added coil should have equal or more inductance as the drive coil.

I will explain something else I know about coils and this is why I will have my wheel made with turnable drive and gen coils. First of all you have to identify if your drive coil is working in repulsion or attraction mode onto or against the rotor magnet.

If you are working under repulsion mode, then pulse the side of the drive coil that is closest to the core. If you are working under attraction mode, then pulse the side that is outermost on the coil. In repulsion, you want to push away the magnet after TDC so going from the inner layer to the outer will produce this effect, just like you would do with your hand holding a magnet. In attraction, you want to latch onto the magnet and pull it towards you and by pulsing the outer layer first going toward the center, this will create that effect. I know some guys will chastise me for posting this but you have to tell yourself that each way has a different effect. Yes both will work either way but you will never get the maximum effect (and strength) if this is not followed. Especially for repulsion mode it will give you a more precise starting point of repulsion. The coil field can grow from in to out, or from out to in. I learned this while testing my former Mylow wheel with a drive coil and my pulse generator. (Ouch I said the M word.) lol

To do this regarding how your wheel is attracting or repulsing, once you connected the drive coil you may have to turn it over to the other side to then match the polarity required to attract or repel the magnet.

@all

Maybe someone with better EE skills can answer this question that I asked at OUR but no answer so far.

Regarding the output of the gen coils, let's say at one magnet passage the voltage is 20 volts and at 20 volts, the drag is great enough to start slowing down the wheel.

Is there a way to use zenor diodes in a way that can discharge the energy in the gen coil when it reaches 10 volts. Then the voltage would drop to zero and have enough time to reach 10 volts again for a second discharge per passage. It would be easier and have to fight less drag if you could draw out 2 x 10 volts then having to wait for the maximum rise/drag and pull out 20 volts. That would produce 10 volts with double the amperage and at half the maximum drag. I would take that any day.

wattsup

[Shadesz]

Hey QV, thanks, I have seen both of his video's. In the first one, he mixes a pour able consistancy that the magnet wouldnt attract to. In the second video he packs the magnetite in really tight with almost no resin, and the magnet did attract to that one.
My paste was similar to his second vid. with just a little more resin. A magnet is very attracted to my core no matter where you put it against the core, but if you put the magnet at one end you get no magnetic pull on the other end like a piece of iron would do. But this may be normal for this type of core.
I will be making a few different ones today, Ive been looking at the field with some magetite in a cup with magnets on each side. It also seems like there needs to be some space between the core mold and the shaping magnets.

Thanks,
Nolan

Just a thought. What if we use a soleniod around the core mold and used an electromagnet to line the ferric oxide particles up? This should allow the field to span the entire length of the core. Doing so would eliminate the chance of missing the middle section that could normally be missed by using attraction magnets on a core that is to long.

[kajunkreations]

Wow i'm loving that washing machine !

@ Kaj,

definitely make another core, don't worry about 70/30, i know one guy who has done this succesfully and he put as much magnetite in with the resin as he could without it becoming unworkable, but it was like a very, very stiff putty. I contacted him on youtube and he's helpful, he is 'codygillespie' in these search results, but there are a few interesting videos here :

magnetite core - Google Search


QV.

Hey QV, thanks, I have seen both of his video's. In the first one, he mixes a pour able consistancy that the magnet wouldnt attract to. In the second video he packs the magnetite in really tight with almost no resin, and the magnet did attract to that one.
My paste was similar to his second vid. with just a little more resin. A magnet is very attracted to my core no matter where you put it against the core, but if you put the magnet at one end you get no magnetic pull on the other end like a piece of iron would do. But this may be normal for this type of core.
I will be making a few different ones today, Ive been looking at the field with some magetite in a cup with magnets on each side. It also seems like there needs to be some space between the core mold and the shaping magnets.

Thanks,
Nolan

[Farmhand]

Maybe wattsup was hinting at this type of arrangement. There should be a transistor switch in the negative line, I forgot to draw it.


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This type of thing can increase the current through a coil at almost any frequency up to a point I guess. The de-Q-ing diode prevents energy returning to the source. If it's left out it can still work.

I would guess at the optimum frequency it would really take off.

There would be formulae for determining the values for the desired effect.
Current will inrease with power though. As far as I can tell.

[mariuscivic]

What did wattsup suggest to you ?

He suggested this:
''Regarding the magnet and coil you had in your hand, can you remove the magnet and connect the coil is series with the drive coil but not on the pulsed side. The connected coil should not be near the wheel. Simply placed on the table and connected in series with the drive coil.

You can try other coils (even transformer primary or secondary) in that same position and see if you notice any difference in wheel rotation without the gen coils or even with the gen coils.

I would be very interested to learn of what this effect will do. Also, I have a list of comprehensive drive coils tests if anyone that has a dual drive coil pair and is interested.

Maybe one last thing. You showed the gen coil with a transformer and a bulb being lit. This shows that cascading coils is more then possible. If you took a simple coil like your drive coil and connected it to the gen coil, then you can place that second coil as a drive coil and find the best angle to see if it will help more in rotation.''

couldn't find anything interesting

[qvision]

What did wattsup suggest to you ?

[mariuscivic]

Hi guys!
I found an usefull thing (maybe you did too so if you did please ignore this)
Every time i connect i diferent load to the same gen coil, i have to adjust the position of the hall sensor for best output under load

Also I have done what WATTSUP suggested me and couldn't find anything interesting

[Farmhand]

I have found some similarities with other systems. This time about the conection about Faraday homopolar generator and Muller dynamo.

About the power generator coil, it's a little similar to Faraday. In faraday generator (modifications have proven to produce COP>1) a copper disk is speeded up and you need to submerge the disk into a magnetic field. Then, you can measure DC, one polarity is in the rotating axis and the other is in the circumference of the metallic disc.

The difference is in Muller you get the energy directly from the magnet (not from the axis-disc) and you have a coil in the magnet also (in faraday you don't need a coil in the magnet).



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It's well know that there are different transformers where you can use only 1 time-varying electric field in the primary and you get 2 wires in the secondary, other option is to use 2 wires in the primary and instead of using 2 wires in the secondary, you can use a capacitor, or other techniques to get the output.

Along similar line's, capacitor plates in magnetic fields might also work somehow, not sure how they would be connected to be used/discharged if they are on the rotor, maybe if the rotor had electromagnets with DC Stator field magnets, but that's a whole different ball game. Maybe it could still work if there is residual or delayed magnetic fields in a pulse motor.

The capacitor plates might work like the farday disc, but there needs to be a fairly strong magnetic field present for the plates to cut or intersect or "be in" I imagine. So it might not work at all in a regular pulse motor. Who knows. If it did faster rotor would be better I would guess.

Anyway, I'll mention it now but feel free to consider it later.
This is Don Smiths dipole transformer generator.


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And some text for Dons device.


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And a very rough drawing of how I would like to try it. With four plates top and bottom, eight all up.


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OK now I just need a spinning rotor. Not easy for me to organise, it's a long way to the shop.

Cheers

P.S Thanks for the drawing mariuscivic.

[toranarod]

Rodney

As I understand the XC impedance is accounted for only in AC systems, if you place your capacitor after the diode then you don't have AC to deal with. You are charging your capacitor to use the energy stored in it. But to charge a capacitor, you will notice that if you charge it faster than it wants to charge, then you will lose energy and current, but if you charge it as fast as it wants to charge you lose no energy, and your capacitor charges up with almost non-existent drag. A discharged capacitor has almost zero impedance, and as it charges up it gains impedance, but its impedance is relative to the input voltage, if the input voltage is always slightly lower than the capacitor voltage the rotor will not see the capacitor charge it up.

Also when a cap is in discharged state the coil sees it as a short when charging it up, therefore, not much drag is induced to the rotor at this phase also. The point is to have a charge/discharge cycle for the cap, and not use the energy directly, as this will close the loop and make the system kill itself, but by using a DC-DC converter romero actually broke the loop and allowed the charge, discharge cycle to take place at the capacitor, allowing it to be charged without much drag.

I think that the DC-DC converter is an important part of Romeros device, and it must use the energy of the capacitor in pulses, so that it allows the cap to be charged/discharged in intervals. Note that the charge/discharge frequency of the cap is about 110Hz in Romeros device. I think that the frequency of the DC-DC converter must be in sync with the charge/discharge/cycle of the capacitor to achieve optimum efficiency.

I am going to test out some configs, will share the results.

Elias

EDIT: This is the type of circuit I am talking about:


I will use a proper capacitor instead of the collector which charges as fast as a magnet passes the coil, and the voltage source of the generator coils as V+ and a hall effect switch instead of the square wave generator that opens the charge cycle when the magnet passes by and closes it when the get passed the coil. Of course, the first Mosfet can be eliminated.

[qvision]

Wow i'm loving that washing machine !

@ Kaj,

definitely make another core, don't worry about 70/30, i know one guy who has done this succesfully and he put as much magnetite in with the resin as he could without it becoming unworkable, but it was like a very, very stiff putty. I contacted him on youtube and he's helpful, he is 'codygillespie' in these search results, but there are a few interesting videos here :

magnetite core - Google Search


QV.

[elias]

Hello Elias

at one point the coil and the cap will be 180 out of Phase. maybe that will be the time to extract the energy for the system loop.
just a thought. If its important to keep the resistance low. in this case the the XC impedance .

Rodney

As I understand the XC impedance is accounted for only in AC systems, if you place your capacitor after the diode then you don't have AC to deal with. You are charging your capacitor to use the energy stored in it. But to charge a capacitor, you will notice that if you charge it faster than it wants to charge, then you will lose energy and current, but if you charge it as fast as it wants to charge you lose no energy, and your capacitor charges up with almost non-existent drag. A discharged capacitor has almost zero impedance, and as it charges up it gains impedance, but its impedance is relative to the input voltage, if the input voltage is always slightly lower than the capacitor voltage the rotor will not see the capacitor charge it up.

Also when a cap is in discharged state the coil sees it as a short when charging it up, therefore, not much drag is induced to the rotor at this phase also. The point is to have a charge/discharge cycle for the cap, and not use the energy directly, as this will close the loop and make the system kill itself, but by using a DC-DC converter romero actually broke the loop and allowed the charge, discharge cycle to take place at the capacitor, allowing it to be charged without much drag.

I think that the DC-DC converter is an important part of Romeros device, and it must use the energy of the capacitor in pulses, so that it allows the cap to be charged/discharged in intervals. Note that the charge/discharge frequency of the cap is about 110Hz in Romeros device. I think that the frequency of the DC-DC converter must be in sync with the charge/discharge/cycle of the capacitor to achieve optimum efficiency.

I am going to test out some configs, will share the results.

Elias

EDIT: This is the type of circuit I am talking about:


I will use a proper capacitor instead of the collector which charges as fast as a magnet passes the coil, and the voltage source of the generator coils as V+ and a hall effect switch instead of the square wave generator that opens the charge cycle when the magnet passes by and closes it when the get passed the coil. Of course, the first Mosfet can be eliminated.

[toranarod]

@Everyone

I think that I found out another secret to this machine.

The first secret is to take advantage of the time lag of current inside the coil.
The second secret is to take advantage of the time lag of the voltage rising on the charging capacitor.

The generator voltage on the coils is perfect for charging capacitors, because it rises like a sine slope. See this paper: https://www.overunity.de/index.php?a...downfile&id=70, There is a time delay for a capactor to charge namely R*C, if you respect that slope, then you have charged your capacitor with minimum current, if you try to charge the capacitor faster than that rate you will only use up current as wasted energy. It is that simple.

The best design would be to choose a capacitor that can be charged faster than the rise of the sine wave. Lets see if Romeros design fits this analogy:

The resistance of one coil ~ 0.7 ohms
The total resistance ~ 0.7*2/7 = 0.2 ohms
The capacitor ~ 47000 uF

time delay for charging the capacitor = RC = 47000 * 0.2 = 9.4 msec

One RC is the time that is required for the voltage to rise up to about 60%.

Now Romero has 8 magnets on his rotor, each magnet passes the coil at about 6.25 msec, So as you can see the capacitor can charge with 1 or 2 magnets passing by, also it takes advantage of the coil time lag, because charging a capacitor with low voltage is approximately like shorting the coils.

I think that the DC-DC converter acts like a pulsing mechanism for the cap. Normally DC- DC converters operate by a buck-boost method, in which an inductor is pulsed, to raise the voltage level.

With these concepts in mind, it is becoming obvious how this device operates.

Elias

Hello Elias

at one point the coil and the cap will be 180 out of Phase. maybe that will be the time to extract the energy for the system loop.
just a thought. If its important to keep the resistance low. in this case the the XC impedance .

[elias]

Another part of the equation

@Everyone

I think that I found out another secret to this machine.

The first secret is to take advantage of the time lag of current inside the coil.
The second secret is to take advantage of the time lag of the voltage rising on the charging capacitor.

The generator voltage on the coils is perfect for charging capacitors, because it rises like a sine slope. See this paper: https://www.overunity.de/index.php?a...downfile&id=70, There is a time delay for a capactor to charge namely R*C, if you respect that slope, then you have charged your capacitor with minimum current, if you try to charge the capacitor faster than that rate you will only use up current as wasted energy. It is that simple.

The best design would be to choose a capacitor that can be charged faster than the rise of the sine wave. Lets see if Romeros design fits this analogy:

The resistance of one coil ~ 0.7 ohms
The total resistance ~ 0.7*2/7 = 0.2 ohms
The capacitor ~ 47000 uF

time delay for charging the capacitor = RC = 47000 * 0.2 = 9.4 msec

One RC is the time that is required for the voltage to rise up to about 60%.

Now Romero has 8 magnets on his rotor, each magnet passes the coil at about 6.25 msec, So as you can see the capacitor can charge with 1 or 2 magnets passing by, also it takes advantage of the coil time lag, because charging a capacitor with low voltage is approximately like shorting the coils.

I think that the DC-DC converter acts like a pulsing mechanism for the cap. Normally DC- DC converters operate by a buck-boost method, in which an inductor is pulsed, to raise the voltage level.

With these concepts in mind, it is becoming obvious how this device operates.

Elias

EDIT: Found a perfect analogy for this: consider that you are watching a youtube video that is loading slower than the rate of the video, then you will encounter resistance, and waste of time and choppy video, but If the video loads faster than the rate of it, then you can watch it smoothly, without any "resistance".
That is exactly how we should charge capacitors, we must respect the rate at which it wants to charge, then it will charge with no current. If we charge it too fast we will waste energy, and if we charge too slow, we do not use the full potential of the system.