Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[Steve220]

Interesting results

Great results and interesting information for sure.
Do be careful not to throw a magnet though.

I wonder if this 7 strand wire in the deflection coil connected up the way it is, adds extra capacitance that might create an L C circuit within the coil that jumpers out the attraction of the rotor magnets?
In any case, this video shows something unexpected.

[Slider2732]

Here's something to report, something very positive

Remember the recent diagram posted, where the coil arrangement was shown that Romero used ?
I tried it out tonight.


Out in the backyard, I have several junk monitors, from which any and nearly all recent components have come from. So today I went to the neck of one monitor and removed the Litz type multi-strand wire. I normally have junked that type, because the factory glue used was thought to rip the strand enamel off...but if carefully unwound, it doesn't.
This neck used 7 stranded wire.
Strands 1, 2 and 3 were soldered to strands 4, 5, 6 and 7. The two ends lots were then used as the power wires for the coil. The coil itself is wound on the actual plastic bobbin that sits on the neck arrangement too, in a little plastic housing. The threaded ferrite core included within the bobbin was kept and remains inserted (you'll see when you take one apart).
Wound with 4 layers of the wire, to the thickness shown in the video below, the coil then had some tape wrapped around to secure.

A small neodymium was placed on the back of the coil, facing North toward the rotor.
It was then fitted to one of my Adams type pulse motors. The rotor is far too small, but what the hey, this was just to see what may or may not happen.

The motor was powered up at 12V and saw the usual speed to be expected from such a size of coil..,fine, normal. Many coils have been tested on this motor, as it's shabby look now testifies to.
Then decided to basically short the coil with a regular CFL house bulb - the rotor sped up to a never before seen speed and kept climbing in RPM !!!
150V AC was measured and then the measurement dropped, presumably from actually measuring the output and killing the dipole ?
The rest of the video shows other 'on the fly' experiments. Some really very bizarre effects were witnessed, including a neon bulb lighting without rotor movement.

Basic Adams type pulse motor:
4x Neodymium magnets, all facing North outward
DN6851 Hall sensor
2SD667 transistor
Small red LED across the Emitter and Base
1N4148 BEMF transistor protection
No caps on the circuit
No shunting doodahs
Hall sensor positioning is critical
Running from a multi-voltage wall adapter, giving approx 3V to 12V range (smoothed by a FWBR and small cap to give more realistic voltage readings at settings and to smooth the supply).

I definitely recommend ripping apart an old monitor and trying this out
Also, apologies for both the mess and hysterical nature within especially the first part of the video

YouTube - ‪RomeroUK Special Coil Test‬‏

[blackchisel97]

Hi blackchisel,


I would give the half bipolar circuit a try. I switched my SSG from the original circuit to the half bipolar circuit and the charging went up. It is very easy to tune if you put a 1K pot in place of the 220 ohm resistor that is used in most of the circuit drawings you see. Also use a hall effect transistor to turn it on and off. Use the hall to adjust the timing and duration of the pulses to the motor coils and use the pot to adjust the current to the motor coils.

Good luck, Carroll

Thanks Carroll I'll try to get this done today. I have only MJL21193 which is a bit overkill for this project but together with 21194 they're my favorite tranny's to work with.

We could also put the bridge across drive coil, fill cap and pulse over the source when motor is off....
I measure 22.7V after the bridge across the drive coil.

Vtech

[citfta]

Hi blackchisel,


I would give the half bipolar circuit a try. I switched my SSG from the original circuit to the half bipolar circuit and the charging went up. It is very easy to tune if you put a 1K pot in place of the 220 ohm resistor that is used in most of the circuit drawings you see. Also use a hall effect transistor to turn it on and off. Use the hall to adjust the timing and duration of the pulses to the motor coils and use the pot to adjust the current to the motor coils.

Good luck, Carroll

[blackchisel97]

Hi folks, I set my setup aside for the moment, though I want to point out some possible similarities I see.
1) Don Smith rotary generator with the large magnet at back of coil and rotating shield that probably shifts the bloch wall within the coil just right to create large output, this probably has to be tuned very precisely just like romerouk's device.
2) magnicoaster, pretty much same idea, magnet at back of coil and I read that it is very difficult to tune the proper bloch wall shifting to get large efficient output.
3) Garry Stanley motor, although not a generator, I think it may have similar actions going on, like when coils attract magnet, the permanent magnet flux is pulled in a direction through the air coils that is the opposite direction of the incoming attracted magnet, which causes a forward emf, aiding input supply. Though again, this probably requires fairly good tuning with coil distances to magnets and such.

At the end of the day, the reason this is so tricky, is because it's the same as tuning in a radio station, though we don't have a tuning dial that is so easy to adjust, we have a multitude of various parts and everyone has different parts, so it is difficult to hit on the right radio station.
That's my theory for now, for what it's worth.
peace love light
tyson

Yes, I agree. Even more similarities in J. Bedini (1984) with DC motor running gen part and switching controller.
In normal circumstances energized coil looks like a magnet - both poles and neutral wall in the middle. Coil can be used in attraction or repulsion mode. What if back magnet allows to push Bloch wall towards the rotor and may cause the rotor to run in near neutral zone. The only force would be the "kick" from collapsing EMF which is also assisted by Bloch Wall expanding. I may be wrong, just the way I imagine. Could this be enough to fool uncle Lenz?

I'm almost done with my experimental rotor which is the same as in my replication setup. Got driver coil and few gen coils done. I need to make some sort of adjustable support for small bobbins. I want to test same coils which I have used in the device but one set only. While I was soldering driver circuit I thought (again ) about short video which John Bedini showed on youtube almost a year ago; small, blue rotor with small neo magnets and 1/2 bipolar switch triggered by hall. John ran this without a core first and piece of iron later. This rotor was running on couple mA. There is not much torque required to spin this generator. My testing setup pulls 40mA and I could spin this with much less. For some reason I can't get this bipolar switch out of my mind. What you guys think about that?


V

[SkyWatcher]

Hi folks, I set my setup aside for the moment, though I want to point out some possible similarities I see.
1) Don Smith rotary generator with the large magnet at back of coil and rotating shield that probably shifts the bloch wall within the coil just right to create large output, this probably has to be tuned very precisely just like romerouk's device.
2) magnicoaster, pretty much same idea, magnet at back of coil and I read that it is very difficult to tune the proper bloch wall shifting to get large efficient output.
3) Garry Stanley motor, although not a generator, I think it may have similar actions going on, like when coils attract magnet, the permanent magnet flux is pulled in a direction through the air coils that is the opposite direction of the incoming attracted magnet, which causes a forward emf, aiding input supply. Though again, this probably requires fairly good tuning with coil distances to magnets and such.

At the end of the day, the reason this is so tricky, is because it's the same as tuning in a radio station, though we don't have a tuning dial that is so easy to adjust, we have a multitude of various parts and everyone has different parts, so it is difficult to hit on the right radio station.
That's my theory for now, for what it's worth.
peace love light
tyson

[nueview]

I am a bit amazed that some folks think that this is a waiste of effort as i have seen more new thoughts brought together on this project than on any other.
1: EMF and MMF having been demonstrated as have definite physical differences. (coil shorting at phase point)
2: resonance reduction of power input for reduced power input ( not fully mastered with motors yet )
3:series and paralell capacitor (voltage current phase shifting)
4: impediance matching for load responce .
5: current flow direction verses field contact with coil wind direction.
6: virtual pole action to ferrite materials and there permiance reaction.

this is deffinitly a good project for learning and i for one give it a top rating.
Martin

[blackchisel97]

@All
I tried using the Litz wire and found no advantage over regular magnet wire. Other people tried it also with the same results. I got mine from Nebraska Surplus and is the same stuff that Lasersaber is using. When I add the two generator coils to my "rememberance" toy unit I will use that just as a reminder of one of the "secrets" that didn't work for me. As far as trying to "rewire" the tiny Litz wire strands into a bifilar coil ----well you better be a brain surgeon. The wire strands are very fine. I know why Romero is mentioning that method now and very early on he referred to a video where a guy was doing that kind of rewiring. You get a voltage gain by doing it but I have examined Romero's photos and videos closely and see no evidence of him doing that on the OU unit. If he did then he is hiding THAT very well also. I looked at the photo of his latest project and enlarged it. You can tell that he is still using the Litz wire but it is all soldered tinned at the coil ends. The coils all appear to be wrapped in the same direction also. In a very early post he said that he started using the Litz wire after he had wound a Bedini bifilar coil and found that it had better performance over another identical one wound with regular magnet wire. I may try that and see what happens.

@Hadcat & Blackchisel97
I was sure that if I just took my shoes off and walked around the house with my device-----that it would just keep running. THAT had to be the secret. It wasn't.
I wish that I could just let this whole project go but way down inside I still believe that Romero didn't fake this. Too many things had to line up just right in that series of videos (and all the written postings) to pull it off.

We are (or even he is) still missing something.

Lidmotor

In my opinion to be able to tell the difference between twisted or plain AWG we would have to have tuned and well working device. I'm not good in theories unless I have something working and I need to come up with one to explain given phenomenon. I have just a mere feeling that splitting and running in branches even if they are connected at the ends maybe superior to plain wire. Frequency may be a factor too. You may recall J.Bedini telling to use few paralleled diodes in the output of SSG instead of just one. This wasn't aimed at making beefier diode. It may be irrelevant but sometimes evil is in details. I cut another rotor and darn thing wobbles tiny bit as well. Not a big deal but causes scope wave fluctuations. Today I was able to see the wave like Romerouk as well as sine wave with two 100uF caps connected in bipolar mode. Core magnets strength and distance is very important. I tried 4 LED paralleled with FWBR, all lit bright. I found that no magnets are needed on drive coils. I also tried to extend some cores above the stator plate to see the difference. My cores are hollow ferrites 6.6mm x 10mm. I'm hoping to get another testing setup done today which will allow me to test different coils without taking my main device apart each time. I want to have ability to play with distance and Bloch Wall on one set of gen coils only and swap them easily. Personally, I have no doubt in Romerouk claim being legitimate and I understand why he was so scared. This had nothing to do with MIB.
I just hope to figure this out. Don't like unsolved mysteries and cold cases.


V

[ewizard]

I would tend to be a bit cautious about drawing the conclusion that Romero's secret was bifilar or multifilar winds. Based on how Penno64 presented the info and then PM'd Romero to validate it's correctness I think there may be some liberal interpretation being taken in this. I asked Penno to clarify the PM and have had no reply. Penno also claimed several weeks ago he had found the 'secret' or something to that effect and then no one heard from him for a long while. And as Lidmotor said there was no clear indication from the vids or pics that this was done this way. Also Ben K4ZEP said he had tried bifilar, trifilar and some other xfilar with no real good results. While I do believe the mulitfilar or bifilar has some advantages IMO I doubt it was used in Romero's looped project. Without knowing the exact details of Penno's PM with Romero I would not jump to that conclusion anyway.

[Lidmotor]

Litz wire

@All
I tried using the Litz wire and found no advantage over regular magnet wire. Other people tried it also with the same results. I got mine from Nebraska Surplus and is the same stuff that Lasersaber is using. When I add the two generator coils to my "rememberance" toy unit I will use that just as a reminder of one of the "secrets" that didn't work for me. As far as trying to "rewire" the tiny Litz wire strands into a bifilar coil ----well you better be a brain surgeon. The wire strands are very fine. I know why Romero is mentioning that method now and very early on he referred to a video where a guy was doing that kind of rewiring. You get a voltage gain by doing it but I have examined Romero's photos and videos closely and see no evidence of him doing that on the OU unit. If he did then he is hiding THAT very well also. I looked at the photo of his latest project and enlarged it. You can tell that he is still using the Litz wire but it is all solder tinned at the coil ends. The coils all appear to be wrapped in the same direction also. In a very early post he said that he started using the Litz wire after he had wound a Bedini bifilar coil and found that it had better performance over another identical one wound with regular magnet wire. I may try that and see what happens.

@Hadcat & Blackchisel97
I was sure that if I just took my shoes off and walked around the house with my device-----that it would just keep running. THAT had to be the secret. It wasn't.
I wish that I could just let this whole project go but way down inside I still believe that Romero didn't fake this. Too many things had to line up just right in that series of videos (and all the written postings) to pull it off.

We are (or even he is) still missing something.

Lidmotor

[hadcat]

The driver coils were made from the crt and the generator coil wire is the wires.co.uk : Stranded Enamelled Copper Wire 7 X 0.125MM SOLDERABLE STRAND EN.Cu 500g wire from this site.

The painful thing about this approach is the size of each strand and the connecting.

I see no evidence of this in the pictures from RUKs device...don't know for sure.

[Joit]

Zerofossilfuel did do a small test with bifilar wound Muller type Coils,
bifilar wound like wire by wire, not the Picture at OU.com from dave?
and he saw not much advantage in it. Single or bifilar did generate
pretty the same amount. Its seems the Point is somewhere else to go.
And i think too, bifilar has her advantage at other Setups,
maybe more as Flat Coils.

[gravityblock]

Roebel conductors

I talked about this before, but I think R UK early on had a picture of the wire he was using in his coils. They looked like Roebel Conductors to me.

Roebel conductors are used in AC power generators because of their ability to reduce the current loss in AC generator (alternator) windings.

It it not Litz wire.

Roebel Conductors is a fancy way to say single strands of insulated wire ran in a nontwisted bundle.
If you were to lay out say, seven long strands of insulated 30 Ga magnet wire and group them together as one without twisting them, you would have Roebel conductors.
Each single wire is its own circuit within the coil.

I am not sure why, but in AC generators (alternators) they work very well.
The bundle is used in AC generator coils.

If I remember right, R UK said about the wire he used in his coils, he got the wires that looked like Roebel conductors from deflection coils used in old CRTs.
I did not know that they used this type of wire in CRT deflection coils, but I guess they do.

This may be a factor in the operation of the R UK device.

Steve

Excellent post!

Thanks,

GB

[Steve220]

Roebel conductors

I talked about this before, but I think R UK early on had a picture of the wire he was using in his coils. They looked like Roebel Conductors to me.

Roebel conductors are used in AC power generators because of their ability to reduce the current loss in AC generator (alternator) windings.

It it not Litz wire.

Roebel Conductors is a fancy way to say single strands of insulated wire ran in a nontwisted bundle.
If you were to lay out say, seven long strands of insulated 30 Ga magnet wire and group them together as one without twisting them, you would have Roebel conductors.
Each single wire is its own circuit within the coil.

I am not sure why, but in AC generators (alternators) they work very well.
The bundle is used in AC generator coils.

If I remember right, R UK said about the wire he used in his coils, he got the wires that looked like Roebel conductors from deflection coils used in old CRTs.
I did not know that they used this type of wire in CRT deflection coils, but I guess they do.

This may be a factor in the operation of the R UK device.

Steve

[hadcat]

Actually, I thought of that but don't remember Romero saying anything about so I stopped thinking on my own and followed on info being available. Where did you find this out? Are they connected "Tesla way"?

How in the world did he manage to wind 300T 7 strands of #36 bifilar on sewing bobbin??


Vtech

On the OU forum here:

Muller Dynamo

The bifilar is done using the litz and matching ends of each strand or wind your own multi strand.

Nothing has been shown as a result yet...Rumero left out this detail and has confirmed in a PM to one of the members. Still waiting this out for more details.