Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[ewolf]

My first measurements
suggest the current from the supply drops every time you add a globe.
the motor runs fast when you attach a globe. at this point not much but that's better than slower.

Does it slow down when you add that parallel cap and speed somewhat up when you add CFL? Or it speeds up compared to having coil not connected to anything?

[Zooty]

Note how the Henry's triple.

maybe this is a way to create free electric light.. Not so much OU
but a really cheap way to light your house. My first measurements
suggest the current from the supply drops every time you add a globe.
the motor runs fast when you attach a globe. at this point not much but that's better than slower.

just out of curiosity, how much voltage are you measuring with the coil open in that configuration and how many watts does it give you connected?

[toranarod]

Thanks for the diagram toranarod
@Slider, was this coil also used to power your motor in your video?

*update*

I have a bifilar coil with laminated core. each strand measures 22mH. When connected in the above configuration, the coil measures 88mH

Note how the Henry's triple.

maybe this is a way to create free electric light.. Not so much OU
but a really cheap way to light your house. My first measurements
suggest the current from the supply drops every time you add a globe.
the motor runs fast when you attach a globe. at this point not much but that's better than slower.

[Zooty]

Thanks for the diagram toranarod
@Slider, was this coil also used to power your motor in your video?

*update*

I have a bifilar coil with laminated core. each strand measures 22mH. When connected in the above configuration, the coil measures 88mH

[toranarod]

The globe

I went and found a globe. your coil lights the CFL globe.

there is no measurable power being consumed from the source and the motor
shows no sign of load.

Note the capacitor in parallel after the bridge rectifier. also works with out the
bridge rectifier ..

this is fun

I think I will spend some time working on this coil and circuit. this needs some diagnostics and some data collected.

[toranarod]

I made this coil you see in the photo below.

I have not been able to achieve what Slider2732 has done so far. That is because I was using the resources available to me. Also I have not tried a F type globe. The coil is 200 turns of 7 stand litz wire 0.4m per strand wound on a iron core bobbin. There are how ever some very promising results I may be able to put to good use. The coil measures 2.6 mH in standard form all wires connected as same.
When you rearrange the connectors as described by Slider2732 the inductance escalates to 12.9 mH.




About the globe? Has any body ever pulled one of the CFL house bulb apart? They are a switching circuit like a Dc to DC converter just for a higher voltage. Remind you of something?

[Steve220]

Special magnet wire

I found some special flat insulated magnet wire from the company below.
This is parallel insulated lay flat single strand wires bonded together and color coded.
Available from 2 to 20 strands, in any small gauge, you can order a roll of 7 strand wire if you don't have a deflection coil or the correct deflection coil to obtain wire from. There is a picture of the wire on their web site.



MWS Wire Industries, Copper Wire Manufacturer, Specialty Wire Manufacturer

Or you could just lay out seven long strands of magnet wire in a nontwisted bundle and wrap on a bobbin to make a coil.
Then use a multi meter to find the correct wires. I think it would work too, but constant parallel wires might work better in this application to keep the correct shorted wires close to each other. Don't know if it matters or not.

Steve

[Slider2732]

Your diagram looks correct.
Thanks for drawing that too !

[toranarod]

Some notes about obtaining the wire from monitor necks.
I know several people might like to try these coils and especially as they are the ones Romero used, but have never even seen the inside of a PC monitor.
HV exists for sometimes many weeks inside a tube based monitor, but no, it needn't fill anyone with fear, if sensible precautions are taken.

The HV and large DC voltages are within the monitor tube and the large capacitors. The simplest method of ensuring safety, is to only touch a monitor that was last used in say 2007 !
With that not being practical, here's what we can do.
Do reference decent discharging articles if unsure, such as this one: FREE PC HARDWARE TEACHING: repair and troubleshooting of a computer and video monitor

Once the case screws have been removed and any swivel base also removed, the rear of the monitor will lift away.
You'll see something similar to this pic, taken from the above link:


Using a plastic handled screwdriver, you can move around any large capacitor and short between the terminals. That's the rough and ready approach, a big ceramic white 10W resistor is another way. Also short the pins on the board that sits at the back of the tube. The tube itself need not be discharged when familiar with the procedure but it's advisable. One method is to tightly wind a mains thickness wire around the metal of the screwdriver and attach the other end to the metal chassis. Now, wearing a rubber glove or gardening glove, push the screwdriver under the rubber suction cup on the main part of the tube, its the round rubber thing with the thick red wire leading to the flyback large box on the circuit board. You'll hear a small snap, nearly identical to a piezo lighter and then will probably wonder what the fuss is about. If that is the situation, then you've done it correctly ! Repeat that push under the cap a couple more times and the tube is then discharged - the monitor is safe. To further ensure safety, snip the large red wire.

Now, how do we get the wire off to wind coils with ?
Here's something similar to what you'll be looking at:


The main board at the bottom there will pull off from the pins of the tube neck.
Next, you'll see the (reusable) screw clamps. Unscrew those and remove the clamps.
The focus rings are the black thin circles of what looks like ferrite, these will pull away and off quite readily.
At this point, you might have a situation where the whole rest of the assembly simply lifts off with some gentle left/right twisting job done
Otherwise, any large gobs of glue are what will be holding the assembly in place. You can run a knife or the screwdriver into this glue and, while gently twisting, the assembly will suddenly break free and be able to be lifted off.
Tube necks can break, but it takes some force and a heavy handed approach.

Finally, the large ferrite pieces that may obscure the multi-strand wire will snap off in 2 halves. Clips often join them and they can be removed with a flat ended screwdriver. Once popped off, tap the ferrite with the screwdriver handle with a sharp rap and the pieces will then come away from the multi-strand wire sitting underneath.


I hope that may be of use to some folks and don't forget all the extra goodies from the monitor. Transistors, heatsinks, degauss coil, capacitors, resistors and more.

Hello Slider2732

I thought your coil experiment was well worth the effort to replicate.

is this basically what you did to your coil?

[Slider2732]

All fresh here as well, it's my first foray into anything more fancy than a Joule Thief winding...I saw the drawing that was apparently from Romero and went out to the backyard to get the wire. Then copied what I saw in that posted pic, fortunately with the results shown.

Seems Romero had a 5 wire Litz type wire from his monitor, I had 7.
2 other monitors today have had 7 strand wire similarly...another Gateway and a Visual Solutions. A Fortuna 15" had single strand wire (interestingly, it's bobbin was also of single strand).

The coil was wound with all 7 wires remaining stuck with glue to each other, it's how it comes off the monitor neck. At the end of winding to merely fill up the bobbin as fully as possible.
So, now there are 2 multi-strands at one end of the coil, similar looking to any relay or another coil..
Taking a hobby knife, the wires were individually split from one another, scraped lightly with the knife and then tinned.
Using the meter set on RX1K, I checked for continuity, firstly between any of the start wires to themselves and then to the end wires...in such a way that any short would be seen readily.
Wire 1 of the start wires was checked and it's finish found with the continuity test.
Those 2 wires were then bent down against the coil out of the way.
Same for wires 2 and 3.
Now, what we have are 4 remaining start wires. These were checked with the finish remaining 4 wires and I made sure that the continuity was correct again.
On the start we now have 3 wires bent down out of the way and 4 wires up above the coil, same thing on the other side of the coil where the finish wires are.
I twisted together the start 3 wires and the finish 4 wires as 2 separate bundles, which were then soldered together to have all those 7 wires soldered together.

We are now left with a start bundle of 4 wires and a finish bundle of 3 wires.
They form the regular power connections to the coil

[Steve220]

No problem

Steve i must apologize, i thought i was quoting Slider... didn't mean to sound rude, just very excited at the results but equally frustrated with the instructions.

It is all new to me too and I am kind of jumping ahead of myself trying to understand what is happening. I am sure all the details will come clear after a while.

[Zooty]

Steve i must apologize, i thought i was quoting Slider... didn't mean to sound rude, just very excited at the results but equally frustrated with the instructions.

[Steve220]

A better diagram

Zooty, I agree, it is hard to understand as it is drawn. I hope slider can provide a more clear diagram.

But in my post, I was trying to show how the the coils are internally shorted by using just strands 1 and 2 as an example.
Say if there was only just strands 1 and 2 ran in parallel then wound on the bobbin, and were soldered on both ends, it would just be one circle of wire.

If you had just one strand wound around the bobbin and the two ends shorted together, it still would be one circle of wire also.

The difference would be that the first example would be shorted back through the coil and the last example shorted outside the coil.

One a internal short, the other a external short.

The internal short has the current flowing in two different directions side by side in the two strands inside the coil.

The external short has current flowing in just one direction.

The side by side strands with the current flowing in two different directions in a coil might also cancel out the current some how in the side by side strands, but still provide a magnetic field to the coil core.

I had to think about it for a while too, but there seems to be a difference between the two types of shorting regarding the magnetic fields produced in the coils when a permanent magnet is passed by the core of the coils.

It is all new to me too.

Steve

[Zooty]

I agree, it is strange, but if you look at strands 1 and 2 connected together at both ends, they are shorted back through the coil.
They are parallel and shorted all at the same time.
Instead of being shorted outside the coil, they are shorted inside the coil. The current in the strands 1 and 2 runs in a circle inside the coil.
An internal short circuit instead of an external short circuit.

A automatic short circuit too, as it don't have any other choice.
Now to complicate things more, strands 1 and 2 are in series with the other strands that are in parallel and shorted together internal to the coil and they are in series too.

I think this odd wiring arrangement is what causes the odd coil operation as shown in sliders video.
It seems to act as a generator coil at lower speeds and then transforms to a rotor booster coil when shorted at the external leads causing the rotor to speed up.
The external short is removed and the the internal shorting takes over causing (I guess) the coil core to build up a magnetic field BTDC and then release a pulse of magnetic core pulse ATDC, pushing against the rotor magnet, causing the rotor to speed up.

The faster the rotor runs, the faster the rotor runs. Kind of a self reinforcing action in the coil.
The internal released magnetic pulse ATDC (may be) stronger than the magnetic field that built up in the coil BTDC.
A internal to the coil, core ATDC intense magnetic repulsion spike to the rotor magnet.

May be not OU, but the magnetic field (may) in this situation have the ability to "stack up" the spikes at the higher rotor speeds.
If so, the "stacked up" magnetic field spikes release ATDC in the coil could become self reinforcing causing the rotor magnets to be pushed ever faster, as shown in the videos.

It don't seem to act as a generator coil at the higher rotor speeds, but a rotor magnet booster coil at the higher rotor speeds.

Also this intense magnetic core spike (if correct) to the rotor magnets ATDC, may cause the clunking sound that is present in the R UK videos.
I tend to think "clunky" sound, is a good sound.

Anyway,
It sure ain't normal.

Steve

This coil configuration needs to be drawn properly. I have spent the last hour reading over it trying to understand and just when i think iv'e got it, my mind tells me it could be something else. "strands 1 and 2 connected together at both ends" this could mean a couple of different things. Could you draw 7 parallel lines labelled 1 to 7 each side but also label one side "start" or something to differentiate from the other side. The do a simple table of connections below it like s1,s2,s3 > e1,e2,e3?

[Slider2732]

The bobbin is within a small plastic housing on the side of the neck assembly.
See where it says 'Purity/Static Convergence Magnet Rings' on the right hand side, about there. Around half way
You can snip the wires that lead in, snap that section off and then remove the top cover of the plastic housing.
All monitors from around the year 2000 that I have encountered so far, about 20 all in all, have had very similar assemblies and come apart in a similar way.