Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[toranarod]

I had the effect at 4500 rpm as well but not anymore - the motor shaft broke off today :/ I need a new out runner with a thicker axis as well, Rod. We are moving forward anyways, slowly but surely

I am now using a much smaller motor. it show very clearly any change in current. this is much better.
new photos next post.

[kEhYo77]

I had the effect at 4500 rpm as well but not anymore - the motor shaft broke off today :/ I need a new out runner with a thicker axis as well, Rod. We are moving forward anyways, slowly but surely

[quantumuppercut]

I think I'm starting to see what is happening about all the speed up under load effect. I'm taking some time to gather thoughts about how this thing works. My opinion is the motor consume charge and it does not care much about voltage. If we can extract high energy from the motor in low current (less drag) and convert high voltage to high charge (more torque).

[toranarod]

@toranarod

Seems like the R&D is going wayside.

What is lacking is a better understanding of the drive coils. I had PMd you a complete protocol to do some testing in that light. I think that was when you decided to transform your wheel with your outrunner, and it seems the dynamics of the thread started to change. I tried to explain the leverage issues.

Those tests would have shown you things that you do not know yet especially the actual usefulness of the second drive coil that is in series to make the drive coil pair. How much of the actual motive impulse do you think is really going to the second coil? But my test protocol goes much deeper then that.

But in any case, what I am realizing is that you cannot wind a drive coil with layers going back and forth, back and forth and expect the full polarity of the coil end that is against the rotor magnet to receive a full blow. It is impossible. Back and forth layering creates what you could call an RMS field or a fat field where both polarities fight each other to produce a quasi north and south field. Quasi because each field will still have the other fields components melding in many ways and even cancelling each other. But in such motive systems where brute force is required, you do not want to create an inductive kick as is created by the present drives coils where most of the coil energy is happening far away from the rotor magnet side of the coil. Just to much happening to create a fast direct hit. The buck stops at the drive coil end where it yells SCRAM to the magnet with a kick in the ass. You want to generate a true simple and immediate kick. You can have the best designed soccer ball in the world. You still have to know how to kick the ball.

For the drive coil, I have yet to see anyone use a coil that is wound one layer, then cut and wind another layer the same way then cut, and keep going like that. This will give you a coil of XX layers all paralleled on each end so you have the same polarity hitting the rotor magnet without any inner coil winding conflicts, cross polarities, cancellations, etc. But do not be fooled. This is not the same thing as winding a bifilar or multifilar coil of 10 wires and 10 layers continuous. You would have to take a 100 filar with only 5 or 6 turns to cover the complete bobbin in one layer. This is not practical. That is why I am recommending as above.

This will give you a coil that has a perfect north and south field. Ask yourself one question. Does the rotor magnet have a perfect north and south field? Answer: Typically yes the magnet has a very well defined north and south field with full intensity on each end. So.... then why would you expect less then that from the coil that is supposed to drive it. Plus when the coil is pulsed, the energy will activate the inner winding faster then it will the outer winding creating a physical inner-layer-to-outer-layer motion that is perfect for repulsion driven motive systems. But no one had tried this yet. Too bad for that. Even Romero should consider this for his drive coils otherwise the drag will kill it. The drive coils and their efficiency to produce motive force is the most important part of your wheel. Turning a wheel at no load to obtain fast rpm is nothing, means nothing, accomplishes nothing but providing you guys with some rough idea on drive coil performance. But any drive coil can do that. But now, put a torque meter on your wheel and you will see how well it can really push to do some real work.

I do not wish my post to sound like I am scolding anyone. It is just that when I see guys that want to learn but are just turning around in circles (Hmmmm sounds familiar), I get sort of edgy and it may reflect in my wording things but there is no intention here to demean anyone since I hold you guys to the highest esteem for getting this far and most of all for sharing your experiences, most of which I can say were predictable but confirming. There are many more factors to consider on these wheels but at this stage there is no point to go there if the question - What is the best drive coil method, is not answered. Once you know that, then you can start working on the best gen coils, including cascading coils. But until then, what is the point in trying to see how far the ball goes if you don't know how best to kick.

A good old passed @member named @JackH made some very crazy motor magnet designs and he had confirmed OU, but all through his works, he had his pony brake to test the actual torque production. Torque is torque. All wheels develop torque and 1 hp equals 746 watts of energy. That is where all including Romero have to play the game no matter how well your gen coils are designed. If you can develop one HP with less then 746 watts of input energy, you are a winner already.

wattsup

PS: Sorry for long post.

I am still very much working on my motor.
I have been busy making modifications and other pieces of equipment. I needed to change the out runner. So I when back to replacing a generator coil with a drive coil. The only problem with using a drive coil. The drive coil will not spin the motor fast enough. Also you loose one generator coil.
The out runner I was using is was too big it consumed to much current and it was to much of a brut to take measurements against. I tried a loop back from the generator COILS. Even so there was no Lenz drag at 4500 RPM there was not enough power available from the generator to match the current consumed by the out runner. I must try a smaller out runner that can do the RPM but not waste so much power. There are much smaller and motors that will show any change in drive drag. The out runner on my Muller is a much better choice, I used what I had in my parts box.

I want to try your coil wind Wattsup. I would like to see it for my self in action.
I need to make sure I understand what you mean about the winding procedure, I think I do. Is there a drawing just so I can be clear about that?

I agree we are not backing off from the research I need time to make parts.
Also have other things that need my attention. Domestic chores and so on.

This is what my motor looks like at the moment. With all the electronics.

[Farmhand]

Please no one stop experimenting or sharing, I only want to point out why I
think lower resistances are better and manipulating phases might be better
than using high impedance and high frequency.

So to finish my train engine analogy. Traction = Phase shift

So to get a baseline the locomotive is tested on a slippery cold track with a
slight incline, the loco's sand boxes are emptied, and the little red wagon is
configured so when sand is added (load) some sand will be distributed to the
slippery rails to improve traction.

With no load (no sand) the wheels slip and the whole process is inefficient.

With load (sand in the little red wagon) the wheels get improved traction and
the process is made much more efficient.

So the efficiency can be improved by a load but that is not why we have rail loco's.

I think this is similar to the delayed lens effect from high impedance coils used
at high frequency, the efficiency is improved by the load but it's insignificant
for the size of the device and the locomotive force ( the overhead power ) .
But the Loco can still push a whole train as well as the sand box. But to expend
energy it must have energy or take it in from somewhere.

So I just feel the need to put out a different way of looking at these effects.

I'll stay out of it now. to all.

Cheers

[Farmhand]

I can even easily think of a situation where moving a little red wagon with a rail
locomotive would improve the efficiency of the rail locomotive itself, thereby
reducing the power it consumes, that would be very easy to achieve, and no big deal.

But it would still be more efficient to move the little red wagon with the child's
toy car.

EDIT: And the little red wagon would have added weight, so an increased load on the rail locomotive to see the efficiency improvement.

Cheers

[Farmhand]

I think before we work towards a desired goal we need to know what that goal is.

What is the goal ? Is everybody's goal the same ? It's difficult to give useful
advice to a person if you're goals are different.

Is the goal a self runner that can power one light bulb and that's it ? Total
usefulness = light one bulb.

Or is the goal rotary effort ? Max shaft power. As in a torque motor.

Or is the goal to have an efficient generator that can run a variety of loads
efficiently for all and efficient at idle ?

I know what I want.

It is plain to see that OUG's MOT was made less efficient by the "Lens Delay Effect"
or "regenerative effect" not more efficient.

They can play all the numbers games they want but, the efficiency of a
transformer that consumes 1 watt and outputs .327 of a watt is 32.7 % I
think.

And the efficiency of the whole process should be considered, from stored
energy (potential energy) to output.

I could measure the efficiency of a rail locomotive (train engine) pulling a little
red wagon (child's toy)and if I don't count what it takes to move the
locomotive without the wagon it would be a very very efficient event. But is
that a measure of what is really going on ? I think not.

However if I do consider what it takes to move the locomotive and the little
red wagon we see the real efficiency of using a rail locomotive to pull little red
wagons.

The real efficiency of pulling a little red wagon with a rail locomotive is not the
difference between the power required to move the locomotive with and without the
red wagon.

The real efficiency is the total power required to move the locomotive and the
red wagon.

I'm sure we can agree the little red wagon could be moved much more
efficiently with something other than a train engine.

IF I compared the efficiency of moving the little red wagon with a train engine
against the efficiency of moving the little red wagon with a small toy electric
car (child's toy), we get a better picture.

I think we could see that although the consumed power by the toy car would
increase by a larger percentage from the load of the wagon than the power
consumed by the train engine would, the toy car would be much more
efficient because of the massive waste of power involved in moving a train
engine to pull a child's toy.

So it's also easy to see that by playing with numbers I can make it seem as
though the train engine is more efficient at moving the red wagon, when in
reality it is not.

I'm not fooled by it.

Cheers

[kEhYo77]

@toranarod Yes, that is an outrunner on top. It is rated kV2500 5A max continuous current and I am running it at 7,5V up to 7000rpm with ease. At 12V it should go 12x2500 unloaded, I think.
My assembly has some friction now because of some imperfections and I will build it once again with laser cut parts next month I hope. It is good for testing coils though. Today I finally got the effect of no deceleration at dead short, so let the game begin...

[toranarod]

My device is almost done for testing. My configuration allows 4 poles to work at the same time, yet there is almost no cogging. In this config I can connect all 8 coils in parallel to get very high L/R ratio. Imagine it to be one very long coil. There are 5 phases with 8 coils each. I don't have all the coils yet... I'll try to make some tests tomorrow... Don't laugh at my filthy rotor

great build, good idea on the coil mountings
is that an out runner on top?
My motor was far to big for my rotor. I am change it to a smaller version.
what is the RPM of the motor? at 12 volts unloaded

[mariuscivic]

Hi wattsup

I confirm that the coil wound as you described works better.I have made one and performs better in both cases:for driving and for gen.The one i made has 8 layers of 30 turns each. In gen mode the output is greater but lenz kicks in too. I stopped making others like this becouse i find it very hard to wound.

[wattsup]

@toranarod

Seems like the R&D is going wayside.

What is lacking is a better understanding of the drive coils. I had PMd you a complete protocol to do some testing in that light. I think that was when you decided to transform your wheel with your outrunner, and it seems the dynamics of the thread started to change. I tried to explain the leverage issues.

Those tests would have shown you things that you do not know yet especially the actual usefulness of the second drive coil that is in series to make the drive coil pair. How much of the actual motive impulse do you think is really going to the second coil? But my test protocol goes much deeper then that.

But in any case, what I am realizing is that you cannot wind a drive coil with layers going back and forth, back and forth and expect the full polarity of the coil end that is against the rotor magnet to receive a full blow. It is impossible. Back and forth layering creates what you could call an RMS field or a fat field where both polarities fight each other to produce a quasi north and south field. Quasi because each field will still have the other fields components melding in many ways and even cancelling each other. But in such motive systems where brute force is required, you do not want to create an inductive kick as is created by the present drives coils where most of the coil energy is happening far away from the rotor magnet side of the coil. Just to much happening to create a fast direct hit. The buck stops at the drive coil end where it yells SCRAM to the magnet with a kick in the ass. You want to generate a true simple and immediate kick. You can have the best designed soccer ball in the world. You still have to know how to kick the ball.

For the drive coil, I have yet to see anyone use a coil that is wound one layer, then cut and wind another layer the same way then cut, and keep going like that. This will give you a coil of XX layers all paralleled on each end so you have the same polarity hitting the rotor magnet without any inner coil winding conflicts, cross polarities, cancellations, etc. But do not be fooled. This is not the same thing as winding a bifilar or multifilar coil of 10 wires and 10 layers continuous. You would have to take a 100 filar with only 5 or 6 turns to cover the complete bobbin in one layer. This is not practical. That is why I am recommending as above.

This will give you a coil that has a perfect north and south field. Ask yourself one question. Does the rotor magnet have a perfect north and south field? Answer: Typically yes the magnet has a very well defined north and south field with full intensity on each end. So.... then why would you expect less then that from the coil that is supposed to drive it. Plus when the coil is pulsed, the energy will activate the inner winding faster then it will the outer winding creating a physical inner-layer-to-outer-layer motion that is perfect for repulsion driven motive systems. But no one had tried this yet. Too bad for that. Even Romero should consider this for his drive coils otherwise the drag will kill it. The drive coils and their efficiency to produce motive force is the most important part of your wheel. Turning a wheel at no load to obtain fast rpm is nothing, means nothing, accomplishes nothing but providing you guys with some rough idea on drive coil performance. But any drive coil can do that. But now, put a torque meter on your wheel and you will see how well it can really push to do some real work.

I do not wish my post to sound like I am scolding anyone. It is just that when I see guys that want to learn but are just turning around in circles (Hmmmm sounds familiar), I get sort of edgy and it may reflect in my wording things but there is no intention here to demean anyone since I hold you guys to the highest esteem for getting this far and most of all for sharing your experiences, most of which I can say were predictable but confirming. There are many more factors to consider on these wheels but at this stage there is no point to go there if the question - What is the best drive coil method, is not answered. Once you know that, then you can start working on the best gen coils, including cascading coils. But until then, what is the point in trying to see how far the ball goes if you don't know how best to kick.

A good old passed @member named @JackH made some very crazy motor magnet designs and he had confirmed OU, but all through his works, he had his pony brake to test the actual torque production. Torque is torque. All wheels develop torque and 1 hp equals 746 watts of energy. That is where all including Romero have to play the game no matter how well your gen coils are designed. If you can develop one HP with less then 746 watts of input energy, you are a winner already.

wattsup

PS: Sorry for long post.

[elias]

Beautiful, thanks for sharing your work.

[qvision]

Lovely build, what dirt ?

Keep us posted, i'm especially interested in power draw of the outrunner.

[kEhYo77]

My device is almost done for testing. My configuration allows 4 poles to work at the same time, yet there is almost no cogging. In this config I can connect all 8 coils in parallel to get very high L/R ratio. Imagine it to be one very long coil. There are 5 phases with 8 coils each. I don't have all the coils yet... I'll try to make some tests tomorrow... Don't laugh at my filthy rotor

[MonsieurM]

This is interesting.

Electromagnetic Motor

Patent 524 426

This should show some lag acceleration effects.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

From the patent.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

If some generator coils were arranged similar to this it could produce some interesting effects.

I think if the two close coils were used for powering a load and the other two
coils shorted maybe with caps. And the frequency was correct for the setup
the shorted coils might cancel some of the drag from the real generator coils
powering a real load.

Depending on how it was arranged it could be done at fairly low rpm/magnet
speed. Maybe it's worth a try. I can't say as I haven't tried it of course, but some have setups that could.

Using a permanent magnet rotor should work.



P.S. I did notice a post on another forum by DeepCut who mentioned an
elongated core which reminded me of the patent so I posted it.

to Deepcut.

I posted this earlier in http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...netism-26.html

6 3 9 this is an amazing combination but if you pay attention it amazingly Fractal in its design but also how you can play with it:

or if you prefer playing with the perspective

6 3 9 = (3 3 ) 3 (3 3 3)
6 3 9 = 6 3 (6 3)

now graphically 6 and 9 are two opposing vortex that create 3, when 6 and 9 are joined i get 3 thus 3 can be broken up into 6 and 9...follow me so far

think of it this way

3 = ( 6 9 )

so we get

6 3 9 = 6 ( 6 9 ) 9

these statements are electromagnetically applicable...just use your imagination



and that is what you saw Farmhand

I just wanted to raise an important point about The 6 3 9 Fractal Engine

It is a system that will always be in Equilibrium; a good analogy for that would be a tubular balloon filled with air....if you squeeze it on one side it will compensate by inflating on the other side...so we have as an example:


6 3 9

6 3 9

6 3 9

6 3 9

etc....

Remember this 6 3 9 is a Fractal Engine

it will always compensate on the other two elements

"If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe." Tesla