Ionization & Water Fuel

[sebosfato]

YouTube - 237-PART 1 of 6-Joe Pipe testing using modified swirl device. A must see.

Have you seeing a joe pipe???

[chasson321]

last edit...

[Aaron]

@Farrah Day

Aaron

What gives you the idea I'm playing games! It is quite clear that there are many different interpretations of things on this thread, so many people are talking cross-purposes. Hence there is little in the way of clarity.

I don't think anyone will lay out their thoughts on the reactions and processes involved in their interpretaion, not because they want me to think it through, but because they can't do it.

Don't you think I've been thinking this through? I wouldn't be asking the questions if I hadn't. All I come up with is unlikely reactions and problems. And when I ask questions, I'm told to figure it out for myself!

Surely this is not what the forum is all about... I thought we were hear to share our thoughts, insights and information.

Farrah

I'm referring to us not playing games in response to the multiple posts
by yourself and others that we're making everyone "figure it out for yourself"
or whatever. Those posts imply that we're playing games with everyone.

There are behind the scenes projects and some want this disclosed
without revealing anything proprietary and to hear claims that you won't
be told not because it's secret but because we don't know is a complete
insult and untrue.

Other people's privacy of proprietary information should be
respected by all and the fact that so much has already been shared
in this thread has, is a very fortunate thing for everyone that actually is
taking the hints to heart and working it out.

I'm not going to tell someone to go figure it out if no hints were given
on many specific parts of the process - that would be abusing people.
I figured out a few parts on my own with much less to go on that what
you and everyone else has. Someone that has been doing this longer
than anyone else here offered to talk to you and if you refused the offer, then
that is to your disadvantage. Fortunately, because I did take to heart
what was initially share and didn't complain, I was able to learn more
from a few others.

People are only encouraged to think it out themselves when there are
very blatant hints that spell it out. It is because of these hints that in
my opinion, nobody has an excuse not to figure out the basic system
or concepts.

H2opower and his crew can't figure out where ammonia is created in the
process. That's ridiculous. First of all, they focus on oxygen ionization
up to various levels and are completely unable to comprehend that nitrogen
is being ionized and/or split at the same time. So when the nitrogen is
split, when it comes in contact with electrolyzed hydrogen, the hydrogen
atoms can bond to the nitrogen. They now appear silent on this since
they couldn't figure that simple part out for themselves while they post
bogus chemistry and math, etc... that only applies in a world where
nitrogen doesn't exist in ambient air.

Do you even have any comments that you claimed an ozone generator
doesn't split nitrogen when it does? Your idea about the lower level reactions happen
first, etc... is completely founded on an opinion and seems
to be based on no experimentation. Do you actually do any experiments
or do you just read about them? I think that is a fair question.

Ozone 101

"as the electrical discharge splits the oxygen molecules, nitrogen molecules are also being split, forming several species of nitrogen oxides. They are normally benign, but if combined with moisture (ordinary humidity), these oxides form a very corrosive substance called nitric acid. Consequently, proper air preparation is critical, as is choosing a generator utilizing high quality materials in the construction of the reaction chamber and associated cabinetry."

Any nitric acid that may wind up in the water cell is a natural electrolyte
and a pH below 7 appears to be optimum.

[Farrah Day]

Aaron

Nobody is going to lay out the sequence of everything because it is
desired that people actually think it through. It isn't a game being played.
People work hard to get to where they are and there is way more
information in this thread than necessary to lay out the entire sequence.

What gives you the idea I'm playing games! It is quite clear that there are many different interpretations of things on this thread, so many people are talking cross-purposes. Hence there is little in the way of clarity.

I don't think anyone will lay out their thoughts on the reactions and processes involved in their interpretaion, not because they want me to think it through, but because they can't do it.

Don't you think I've been thinking this through? I wouldn't be asking the questions if I hadn't. All I come up with is unlikely reactions and problems. And when I ask questions, I'm told to figure it out for myself!

Surely this is not what the forum is all about... I thought we were here to share our thoughts, insights and information.

Farrah

[Aaron]

Langmuir

Hi

Can I ask, are you all talking about dissociating N2 with a plasma arc?

I ask this as, for some reason I was under the impression that most of you were thinking of employing high electric fields, a la Meyer, to do this.

If so I think I probably owe Aaron an apology as an electric arc is very confined and will undoubtably react with N2 as well as O2 in air. I had in mind large electric fields pulsing across the whole gas chamber.

Can you people just clarify this for me. Thanks.

Farrah

Farrah,

There is the ionizer and the plasma arc is the ignition in the combustion
chamber - 2 different things.

The plasma arc dissociates whatever H2 is in the combustion chamber,
but what property of the arc does the dissociation?

I did give 2 Langmuir references.

[pengrove]

Pengrove maybe you refer to Hz.. However seem that you have ask with Mike privately but him don't have main stage at this time.. know only final part..

Mike? I have not talked to mike privately sorry.

[Aaron]

@vickers

Alright Aaron, Your first drawing. I think it second post on water spark thread. OK. Sorry dude.

Here's the pic in the second post:



Now what is your question about this? lol

[Aaron]

@Farrah Day

Yes. Higher energy reactions will always be preceded by lower energy reactions.

Yes, that's how I see it.

I really don't know if it holds true under every condition, it is only my opinion. It may well come down to how you intend to dissociate the N2. But to illustrate my point, if you consider ozone generators for example, you never hear of them dissociating nitrogen do you? And they reside in this sea of N2.

Yes, I would have thought so, do you have any figures for this reaction. I have not yet looked further into this.

But this brings us back to my others point, if we are getting all the energy from the recombination of atomic nitrogen, what part is the HHO playing - if anything?

If solely for the creation of ammonia as a by-product... why go to all this trouble? Let's face it, ammonia is not a particularly nice product to be issuing forth from your exhaust pipe into the atmosphere.

Still no clear or distinct path to follow in all this yet. I'm still struggling to find any logical sequence of events that instantly make sense, and feel that my Eureka moment is still some way off yet.

You asked me this before and I'm unsure as to what specific answer you're looking for. Are you looking for heat?

The problem as I see it is that no one has yet laid down a specific set of events and reactions that take us logically from A - B. There seems to be much doubt about what reacts with what, where in the sequence of events these reactions actually take place, where the high energy exothermic reaction fits in, and indeed what the resulting 'ashes' are?

Clearly many people here have there own ideas, which greatly confuses and complicates the issue - particularly as no two ideas would seem to be the same.

The best thing for everyone to do would be to lay out their interpretation of the reactions and the sequence of events, from the very start, to the very finish. This way we could compare everyones views and analyse better the possible results.

Farrah

Remember: It's what we learn after we think we know it all that really counts!

Actually yes, I have heard of ozone generators splitting nitrogen because
this happens with every ozone generator. Nitrogen is split right
along with oxygen producing a small amount of nitrogen oxides. This is a
very elementary fact about ozone generators.

I don't have the figures handy on nitrogen heat release. I have a
ridiculously large archive on nitrogen but these references are available
through google. That is where I found all of them. Oxygen does the same
thing.

Where do you get the idea that ammonia is being pumped into the
air? There is ammonia naturally in the air anyway of course in small
amounts but when ammonia is combusted in an engine, it produces water
and nitrogen. That is all that is leaving the exhaust with small amounts of
nitrogen oxides and all of this or at least whatever amount you want is
ducted to the water cell.

Nobody is going to lay out the sequence of everything because it is
desired that people actually think it through. It isn't a game being played.
People work hard to get to where they are and there is way more
information in this thread than necessary to lay out the entire sequence.
I mentioned that the ionized air could be mixed with the output of the
water cell or that it can be pumped into the water cell to bubble through
the water as the water is being electrolyzed.

What I don't understand is why it is so difficult for anyone to simply
draw out an ionizer, draw out a water cell and there are a finite amount
of practical ways to connect them and put an engine in the sequence.
Then there is the exhaust and a finite amount of things that have been
discussed about it. etc... By doing this, many things become self apparent.

Remember: It's what we learn after we think we know it all that really counts!

That is great advice for anyone that is having difficulty understanding
this process.

[tutanka]

When you have 60 bolts of lightning per second Nitrogen fixation is not a problem.

Pengrove maybe you refer to Hz.. However seem that you have ask with Mike privately but him don't have main stage at this time.. know only final part..

[Farrah Day]

Hi

Can I ask, are you all talking about dissociating N2 with a plasma arc?

I ask this as, for some reason I was under the impression that most of you were thinking of employing high electric fields, a la Meyer, to do this.

If so I think I probably owe Aaron an apology as an electric arc is very confined and will undoubtably react with N2 as well as O2 in air. I had in mind large electric fields pulsing across the whole gas chamber.

Can you people just clarify this for me. Thanks.

Farrah

[vrand]

When you have 60 bolts of lightning per second Nitrogen fixation is not a problem.

So you actually discharge? I thought you did not want the sparks/arcs and only needed the corona discharge?

What voltage are you using?

Regards, Mike R.

[sebosfato]

When you have 60 bolts of lightning per second Nitrogen fixation is not a problem.

I have it tuned in quite nicely. I am losing very little energy and dependability is looking to be at optimum.

I get too much heat at 240hz, 120 is nice.

What are you talking about?

[pengrove]

Then you are going to use an awful lot of energy for your 0.5sec fix

Mike

I have it tuned in quite nicely. I am losing very little energy and dependability is looking to be at optimum.

I get too much heat at 240hz, 120 is nice.

[Michael John Nunnerley]

When you have 60 bolts of lightning per second Nitrogen fixation is not a problem.

Then you are going to use an awful lot of energy for your 0.5sec fix

Mike

[pengrove]

Reaction, yes, swapping is not the word for it and NO it is not what I am looking for as an answer.

They all go to form an explosive material, on their own, or in part of another mix. Nitrogen is the most important part, you FIX the nitrogen first and after you can make what you want.

Nitrogen fixation is the hardest part, it is so reactive once fixed that it will revert back to molecular nitrogen in 0.5sec or less by grabing one of its own

Mike

When you have 60 bolts of lightning per second Nitrogen fixation is not a problem.