Ionization & Water Fuel

[pengrove]

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/P6.pdf

How does this relate? I see that they are adding ammonia to water so that it will take on a Positive charge. But I fail to see the relationship here.

[sebosfato]

OHHH Look at this!

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/P6.pdf

[sebosfato]

Hi sucayo I wanted to mean

The fact that the gas enter inside the engine and the engine is a conductor, (similar to a van de graf or a cylinder) (and grounded) cancel all the possibilities of keeping air minimally charged or "ionized".

This is because no electron can remain in the middle of a conductor.

Think of a metallic sphere and you put an electron inside of it. It will immediately move toward the metal just because of the geometry even not having a voltage. !!!

Thats why in the van de graf generator they charge the sphere from inside, this way they can always charge and charge and again charge because inside the sphere the electric charge will always be zero. This is how its possible to generate millions of volts with a piece of plastic...

I aways believed that the fact that meyer used the positive electrode the outside cylinder had something to do with this!!! I believe that somehow he used this geometric configuration to lower the needed energy to accomplish the electrolysis. The delrin around and inside the cylinders even should help by allowing the cylinder to hold the charge.

All i'm saying is that inside a van de graf the charge should be zero. or inside an engine or inside a tube.

And that if you put an ion inside this cylinder it will readily discharge.

I was guessing that if you could charge the entire engine than something would change. But i'm not sure of it. But if you think about, having the engine charged positively, when you inject positive ions, when they touch the cylinder they should not discharge because it is already charged up to 40kv where corona is already happening...

I believe that this is one of the reasons why he used a buggy simple engine...

I think that if we could have the piston at least covered with ceramic but having a small point in the top of it metallic, and the block of the engine isolated by some ceramic, we could generate electricity, straight from combustion. Because when the explosion happens is quite easy to have a voltage as result of the plasma (explosion) + van de graf effect + theromoelectric.

Maybe the spark plug can do this for us... to be this isolated positive contact.

If we could have a car with two spark plugs we could measure if there is voltage in the other while leaving it disconnected... I guess

+

If we have plasma as exhaust crossing magnetic fields MHD electricity could be generated.

( maybe one could do this test )

would require a high voltage dc probe to measure the charge accumulated in the cylinder.

To put the spark plug in a metallic cylinder and just apply 40kv negative in the center electrode of the spark plug and see what happen. with the voltage
and if a spark could happen...
Regards

[sucahyo]

The fact that the gas enter inside the engine and the engine is a conductor, get all the possibilities of having or at least think that this air is ionized.

Please explain how a gas inside a conductor get ionized.

I believe that if you charge the all engine maybe positively, this could be possible but is very hard since it will be discharging into the ground.

Are you suggesting that air inside van degraf copper sphere will react too not just betweent the HV polarity?

[sebosfato]

Explain how Ashtweth can measure current in the GEET pipe then. Explain why no one need ceramic coating on 80% water as fuel in a GEET system. French even dare to use it on helicopter!

It is impossible for all molecule in the pipe to be in contact with the metal, it will be only part of it. Metal corrode if there is constant DC polarity. If the metal is same, there would be no corrotion since all would have the same charge, same voltage, same polarity.

The bolt at a bridge corrode because different metal create a potential that will allow electrolysis process to happen. Salty water accelerate the process. The one that corrode first is the more positive one. This also show that you need a conducting liquid for corrotion. How many ohm is ionized air?

[sucahyo]

Give facts to back up the bad news

No electron or ion positive or negative or charge can remain charged inside the cylinder of an engine under pressure without discharging instantaneously by the millions of contacts per sec (gas molecules shake or collides like crazy under pressure) contact with the cylinder metal! Also because of the same effect on van de graf. Because no electron or charge can stay in the middle of a conductor! (the cylinder)

Explain how Ashtweth can measure current in the GEET pipe then. Explain why no one need ceramic coating on 80% water as fuel in a GEET system. French even dare to use it on helicopter!

It is impossible for all molecule in the pipe to be in contact with the metal, it will be only part of it. Metal corrode if there is constant DC polarity. If the metal is same, there would be no corrotion since all would have the same charge, same voltage, same polarity.

The bolt at a bridge corrode because different metal create a potential that will allow electrolysis process to happen. Salty water accelerate the process. The one that corrode first is the more positive one. This also show that you need a conducting liquid for corrotion. How many ohm is ionized air?

[Aaron]

spark circuit

If you remove the switch, the diode and , the coil so that the only way the cap will discharge is with a dead short at plug electrodes...., What do we have to add to our fuel to get our dead short?
And if our fuel making process consists of air, water and electricity..., What kind of spark plug (that we can buy from any auto parts store) will be best suited to the process?

I see, thanks.

So, you want the fuel/air mixture to be the trigger for the cap to discharge
across a gap that is bigger than the the voltage of the cap can jump
on its own.

If the air itself is ionized, it is a conductive medium that can cause a spark
across a gap at relatively low voltages...lower than what is supposed to
jump the gap without the conductive air. I don't know if a 400v cap
for example can jump a sparkplug with just ionized air, I'm sure it is possible
but don't know how practical.

With the vapor or liquid fuel, water, nh3, whatever, there is going to be
some conductivity but I think it is mostly going to be misted instead of
a good solid drop that will short the gap on the plug so I think HV is still
needed.

Whatever the case may be, surface gap geometry is what Peter and I
had the best results on our lawnmower tests - that was with humidifier
hot moisture mixed with nothing but gas vapor...we had the jet turned
all the way in so just the idle jet was letting in some gas but we were
able to get full power at full throttle with the plasma, hot moisture and
gas vapor. The plug that we used simply had the j-strap cut off and ground
smooth (around the rim).

You can buy resistor-less surface gap plugs off the shelf. Not all shops
carry them. Not sure if they're available in tungsten. But you can sure
order them online. Champion, NGK and most main companies make them.
And if they are in tungsten, it will only be the center electrode.

[sebosfato]

Bad news

I have some bad news for the ionization theory...

No electron or ion positive or negative or charge can remain charged inside the cylinder of an engine under pressure without discharging instantaneously by the millions of contacts per sec (gas molecules shake or collides like crazy under pressure) contact with the cylinder metal! Also because of the same effect on van de graf. Because no electron or charge can stay in the middle of a conductor! (the cylinder)

Hi Isolating Hi Temperature and self lubricating Ceramics need to be used to cover the cylinder and the head and piston!

The engine must be charged entirely!

This way ionization may have a sense! For a specialist in molecular Physics

She said that using Led Is possible to help the energy aperture of the atom to help giving to it a charge because of a principle that two low energy photons can reach the atom at the same time.

If i was you guys, i would stop guessing and would really study molecular physics, materials physics, and plasma physics...

I'm already doing this!

I hope my words could help!

Oxygen love electrons!

Nitrogen in atomic configuration is very reactive

N2 conversion into N + N is endothermic. Needs energy!

She said that de-energized water molecule does not exist and that this can maybe mean that he created other type of molecule as exhaust...

She said that H3O+ Or OH- as i proposed is not possible because how combustion happen, and that H3O+ or H+ can exist only in water form.


You still don't understand the humans.

[dave_cahoon]

NOT Equal to Dogma

This paper explains the difference between HOT plasma reactions, and COLD corona reactions.

http://mechse.illinois.edu/research/glumac/NSFW/Fridman.pdf

Understanding this type of chemistry is a must.

Dave

[Aaron]

nitrogen doesn't just "get in the way"

"electrons are ejected from the water molecule and absorbed by ionized gases" - Stanley Meyer

[Aaron]

@Tim

Thanks Tim, the record can show that you and h2opower concede to the
fact that they cannot answer these questions.

So, basically, TIM (h2opower's messenger):

1. why does h2opower claim there is almost no nitrogen dissolved in
water when Meyer says it is 17% - 17% is HUGE.

2. why does h2opower claim nitrogen is just getting in the way when
Meyer spells out that the ionized gas, which IS ionized air, mostly nitrogen,
is receiving the electron from the splitting of water, splitting of water gas,
splitting of vapor, etc... bottom line, the nitrogen is absorbing the electron
to keep the hydrogen and oxygen from recombining.

[chasson321]

last edit...

[Aaron]

@Tim

@Tim

" 01-31-2010, 03:40 PM
h20power vbmenu_register("postmenu_83309", true);
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 644


Would someone like to circle number 1 for him showing the water inlet. The gases that are called "ambient air gases" are gases that are dissolved in water at the time when the water is being broken down and are nothing more than trace gases and can be ignored. Did you look up the solubility table of gases in water Aaron as I requested you to do? Sure doesn't look like you did when you see the real numbers you are saying are vital to producing thermo explosive energy. Solubility of Gases in Water

Notice that it is a gram of gas per 1 kilogram of water, noting that there is from .03 to .01 grams of N2 in the temperature range from 0 to 60 degrees C, and how many grams of hydrogen and oxygen are in 1 kilogram of water? Do you need me to solve that one for you telling you how many grams of hydrogen and oxygen are in 1 kg of water? Now do you see what I mean when I call them trace gases? Follow the science not the NDA team!


h2opower.
"

That is from Stanley Meyer Explained Thread:

http://www.energeticforum.com/83309-post1506.html

That is what H2opower says about dissolved gasses in water. I'm posting
this for the record since his followers are spreading misinformation in
this thread and elsewhere.

Here is what Stanley Meyer's says about dissolved gasses in water:

Stanley Meyer: US Patent # 4421474 -- Hydrogen Gas Burner

USP 4,421,474 Hydrogen Gas Burner
Stan Meyer


"It has been found that all water in its natural state whether it be tap water, well water, sea water, or fresh water is a saturate of ambient air. Further, in that ambient air contains a substantial amount of nitrogen, all natural water will have entrapped therein nitrogen. Again, the percentage of nitrogen entrapped in natural water has been determined to be a fixed percentage and very uniform at seventeen (17%) percent -- irrespective of the source of the water or its impurities. Hence, a natural water gas analysis will show a seventeen percent of nitrogen relative to the hydrogen and the oxygen."


H20power says nitrogen in water is a trace gas that can be "IGNORED."


Stanley Meyer says it is 17%. That is almost 1/6th content according to Stanley
Meyer - that is in no way a trace gas. Ignored? Only when wanting
to ignore what Meyer is saying.


Does anyone know where Meyer gets this number? It seems high.

Even if Meyer is making it up about 17% dissolved nitrogen in
water, h2opower ignores the fact that nitrogen from the exhaust is pumped
back to the water fuel cell. So it is common sense that even if water on
its own has a small trace amounts of nitrogen and Meyer is deceiving
people, the water will have way more nitrogen because of the exhaust
being pumped into it.

Here is what Meyer says:

"an excellent source of non-combustible gasses are exhaust gasses."

We've all seen this patent I think. It was pointed out to me today but
I never noticed that Meyer said water has 17% dissolved nitrogen in it.
Where does this 17% come from?

And of course we have:

Stanley Meyer: Water Electrolysis -- Canadian Patent # 2067735 -- Water Fule Injection System

I think most of us have seen this to:



"In the fuel mixture condition that is created by the injector, water (H2O) is atomized into a fine spray and mixed with (1) ionized ambient air gasesand (2) other non-combustible gases such as nitrogen , argon and other rare gases, and water vapor. (Exhaust gas produced by the combustion of hydrogen with oxygen is a non-combustible water vapor. This water vapor and other inert gases resulting from combustion may be recycled from an exhaust outlet in the injector system back into the input mixture of non-combustible gases). The fuel mix is introduced at a consistent flow rate maintained under a predetermined pressure. In the triggering of the condition created by the injector, the conversion process described in my patent # 4,936,961 and co-pending application serial # 07/460,859 is set off spontaneously on a micro level in a predetermined reaction zone. The injector creates a mixture, under pressure in a defined zone (or locus) of water, ionized gases and non-combustible gases. Pressure is an important factor in the maintenance of the reaction condition and causes the water mist/gas mixture to become intimately mixed, compressed, and destabilized to produce combustion when activated under resonant conditions of ignition. In accordance with the aforementioned conversion process of my patent and application, when water is subjected to a resonance condition water molecules expand and distend; electrons are ejected from the water molecule and absorbed by ionized gases; and the water molecule, thus destabilized, breaks down into its elemental components of hydrogen (2H) and oxygen (O) in combustion zone. The hydrogen atoms released from the molecule provide the fuel source in the mixture for combustion with oxygen."

So, we have:

WATER/HHO/VAPOR/MIST, ETC...

mixed with:

IONIZED AIR + NON COMBUSTIBLE GASES, which comes from the exhaust
after combustion.

The mixture is destablized AFTER the water gas is mixed with ionized air
and recycled exhaust.

"Pressure is an important factor in the maintenance of the reaction condition and causes the water mist/gas mixture to become intimately mixed, compressed, and destabilized to produce combustion when activated under resonant conditions of ignition. "

When the arc hits, water is split (in this injector system) but look at the
explanation. ELECTRONS ARE EJECTED FROM THE WATER MOLECULE
AND ABSORBED BY IONIZED GASES. This ionized gas is almost totally
NITROGEN. The nitrogen as explained by Meyer is acting as an EEC or
electron receiver. This mixture burns slow and releases some real THERMAL
energy. H2opower claims the nitrogen just "gets in the way" but we can
see CLEARLY that the nitrogen is not just getting in the way, it is
receiving the electron to prevent the water molecule from forming. If the
molecule of water forms easily, then there can't be a flame that sustains
under these conditions - because we know the burn rate is much too fast
for regular hydrogen/oxygen mix.

"when water is subjected to a resonance condition water molecules expand and distend; electrons are ejected from the water molecule and absorbed by ionized gases; and the water molecule, thus destabilized, breaks down into its elemental components of hydrogen (2H) and oxygen (O) in combustion zone. "

So, basically, TIM (h2opower's messenger):

1. why does h2opower claim there is almost no nitrogen dissolved in
water when Meyer says it is 17% - 17% is HUGE.

2. why does h2opower claim nitrogen is just getting in the way when
Meyer spells out that the ionized gas, which IS ionized air, mostly nitrogen,
is receiving the electron from the splitting of water, splitting of water gas,
splitting of vapor, etc... bottom line, the nitrogen is absorbing the electron
to keep the hydrogen and oxygen from recombining.

[Farrah Day]

Aaron

There are behind the scenes projects and some want this disclosed
without revealing anything proprietary and to hear claims that you won't
be told not because it's secret but because we don't know is a complete
insult and untrue.

The last thing I want to do is fall out now that our friendship is blooming, and if people felt insulted by my last post, I'm sorry, that was not the intention. I was merely highlighting the fact that there is little point in all this if no one is sharing details... after all the devil is in the detail.

Someone that has been doing this longer
than anyone else here offered to talk to you and if you refused the offer, then
that is to your disadvantage. Fortunately, because I did take to heart
what was initially share and didn't complain, I was able to learn more
from a few others.

I have no idea just what you're refering to here!

I'm not going to tell someone to go figure it out if no hints were given
on many specific parts of the process - that would be abusing people.
I figured out a few parts on my own with much less to go on that what
you and everyone else has.

This is part of the problem. If these so-called 'hints' do not seem to make sense (as I am finding) and people are reluctant to elaborate or discuss them further, then everyone can be on a completely different page without knowing it. And what some of you see as, 'having it all figured out', I only see as very questionable.

Hence my confusion as to how you were intending to dissociate N2.

H2opower and his crew can't figure out where ammonia is created in the
process. That's ridiculous. First of all, they focus on oxygen ionization
up to various levels and are completely unable to comprehend that nitrogen
is being ionized and/or split at the same time. So when the nitrogen is
split, when it comes in contact with electrolyzed hydrogen, the hydrogen
atoms can bond to the nitrogen. They now appear silent on this since
they couldn't figure that simple part out for themselves while they post
bogus chemistry and math, etc... that only applies in a world where
nitrogen doesn't exist in ambient air.

My problem is not in the creation of ammonia, it is why would you want to do this? And the fact that the ammonia created is only proportional to the hydrogen evolved in the first place! I see no net gain here, just energy wasted in the creation of ammonia.

The trouble is if you're splitting nitrogen in the presence of oxygen, you're immediately going to create nitrogen oxides, so in order to have any chance of creating ammonia in the first place, you've got to remove the O2 from the air.

These are all issues of importance, details that seem to be being completely overlooked. I ask so many questions because I can see issues that others seem to either be unaware of, are overlooking or worse, simply ignoring.

Do you even have any comments that you claimed an ozone generator
doesn't split nitrogen when it does? Your idea about the lower level reactions happen
first, etc... is completely founded on an opinion and seems
to be based on no experimentation. Do you actually do any experiments
or do you just read about them? I think that is a fair question

Ok, yes, we get some N2 reactions from an ozone generator, but it is a tiny fraction of that of the O2, even though the N2 content of the surrounding air is nearly 4 times that of O2. My point was that O2 will always dissociate before N2 given the chance (but at the time I was assuming you intended to use an electric field to do this).

We already touched on the reformation of the N2 molecule from atomic nitrogen is likely a very exothermic reaction, but according to you this is not the energy part of the equation. You want to form NH3 somewhere in the process and combust that.. right?

If asking for a little clarity on the sequence of events is asking too much, I apologise, but I don't see how you guys here can possibly move forward until you establish some common ground. It would really help things if you were all reading from the same script, but unless each of you fully detail your thoughts and processes, it will never happen.

Ok, I'll politely bow out on this thread as I can't see anything other than muddy water.

Farrah

[Aaron]

@Tim, h2opower's spokesperson

Do you have any idea how much energy it takes to strip three electrons away from that atom? It takes 4578.1 kJ/mol and I don't see any of you creating that kind of energy.

To call the conservation of energy and the conservation of mass false propaganda is an insult to the whole world and shows your simple mindedness when it comes to science.

If you understood just how Stanley Meyer's technology really worked you would see just how ignorant that statement really is.

The many flaws in this theory leave it so it so badly damaged it is no longer worth talking about. Plus the theory can't be questioned or examined due to NDA's.

Tim.

Simply focus on splitting nitrogen, which you are going to do ANYWAY
in your ionization process if you have a decent one.

Mass/energy - you're free to believe in fossilized science if you want.
I know better.

H2OPOWER THINKS NITROGEN SIMPLY GETS IN THE WAY TO SLOW DOWN
THE BURNING OF HHO. SO, PLEASE, TELL ME WHY ANY SMALL ENGINE
RUNNING ON HHO THAT IS USING AMBIENT AIR (WITH 78% NITROGEN)
THAT IS MIXING WITH THE HHO BURNS FAST AND DOESN'T SLOW DOWN
SINCE ACCORDING TO YOU/HIM, ALL THAT 78% NITROGEN FROM
AMBIENT AIR SHOULD BE SLOWING DOWN THE HHO BURN, WHICH IT
DOES NOT! Please, explain.

You're using basic math but are applying it to solve the wrong questions.
Please don't discuss the concept of ignorance.

NDA doesn't stop anyone from using plain and simple COMMON SENSE
to digest the info that has been posted so no more excuses please.

SO TIM, IN MEYER'S PROCESS, WHEN IONIZING AMBIENT AIR, DOES ANY
NITROGEN GET SPLIT IN THE PROCESS? I DARE YOU TO ANSWER THAT.