Bedini Solid State Oscillators

[sucahyo]

For my charging part efficiency, 320mA version:
- fully discharge battery at 1.5Amp for 6 minutes, battery voltage become 1.25V.
- fully charge again at 320mA less than 30 minutes (1.42V). the battery voltage raised from 1.25V to 1.35 during the first 15 minutes.

Discharging rate = 1.5 * 6 * 60
Discharging rate = 540 Amp seconds

Charging rate = 0.32 * 30 * 60
Charging rate = 576 Amp seconds

efficiency = 540/576 = 93%

The battery charge faster than 30 minutes, so the actual number may be higher. The charging part are good but the circuit part are very bad...

I think the choice of using two transistor and using resistor under 1K may be the source of my circuit inefficiency.

Will air coil improve the charging efficiency considerably?

[blackchisel97]

@SkyWatcher

Hi SkyWatcher,

I have built several different circuits, starting from pendulum followed by SSG etc. What I want to achieve is to replicate and understand what John Bedini shared with us. I have to admit that I admire this man, and regret that I didn't have a chance to meet him in mid 70', when I was working with electronics and have fully equipped lab at home. It's difficult, after 20 years of working with wood and building furniture to switch back
I can see advantage of flyback and lack of any mechanical parts - relays, reeds in case of battery charger. When you look at small charger from Energenex, it's hard to imagine air coil inside. I know that he would use air coil due to higher frequency (20 -25kHz). I think he is using developed circuit from the one I mentioned in my previous post, without the coil. But who knows. I'm determined to get this solid state tuned and being able to see what it's claimed to do. I can build different charger which will do the job or just buy one from Energenex but that's not what I want. I can't ask questions regarding SS on Monopole3, since it is about SSG. I did ask on Monopole forum but nobody answered. Today I played again with diode between 7 - 2 and I put 1k pot in place of 330 resistor to control duty cycle. I can go well under 50%. I reduced output current and search for resonant point of my battery.
Just bought couple SG3524 and hauled home three PSU's from scrap. They were tagged as "upgraded turbines". I checked on the net - they were $3500, state of the art PSU with toroid transformers, ultra fast diodes and hybrids of mosfets/bipolar transistors. Lots of goodies to salvage Almost 6am, I think I need some sleep.


Vtech

[SkyWatcher]

Hi Chisel, I have tried cap dump setup using relay for dump to separate completely from source and it works though not sure if its better than using flyback off diode and its desulphation benefits. What I would really like to know is what circuit Bedini is using in his chargers hes selling, my guess is flyback pulses off coils.
peace love light
Tyson

[blackchisel97]

Another idea

While still fiddling with solid state. Maybe I'm stubborn but I do believe there is something in this circuit not revealed to me yet. Meanwhile I found John Bedini US Patent 2003/0117111A1 - "Device and method for pulse charging battery and for driving other devices with pulse". Instead of 555 it runs on SG3524 - allowing full control of duty cycle, two optocouplers, two MJE15024 and four n-channel IRF260. What make a lot of sense is a separate 12V for PWM. Pulser runs on 24 -50V. Capacitor bank is 0.132F. Circuit looks yummy I wonder if anyone tried this yet? I'm gonna try it anyhow but would love to hear any feedback. Oh, I almost forgot - there is no coil


Vtech

[pvar06]

What are we missing

Hi All,

Around two days back the battery was at 13.04 volts and in last 48 hrs the battery reached only to 13.31 volts. Seen some bubbles coming out, I think it is cold boiling.

I think currently the circuit is not running effectively inspite of no chages made after putting the above mentioned battery. I have not checked the circuit because did not want to disturb the current setup. This I was saying as the open output voltage has increased to 154 volts from 50-54 volts with 0.80 A at start. In my last tests I have observed that whenever the open voltage at output increases the current level goes down. The input is still intact at 0.30 A.

I think it is high time to remove the battery from the circuit. I will do the following two tests:

1. Keep the battery for 4 hrs and record the voltage drop.
2. Discharging the battery with C20 rate upto 12.4 volts.

Assembled another circuit. On this curcuit too the performance is more or less simililar to first one. However on this circuit i have tried TIP3055 and KSE13009 but could not observe any difference. Hopefully today I will get my MJL21194.

Yesterday I saw another thread on this forum

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/3082-solid-state-bedini-2.html

The circuit designed by Jetijs was looking great and he did lot of load testing on his 200 Ah battery. So yesterday assembled on circuit as per the schematic and testing is on. I will post the data related to this circuit on the other thread to avoid confusion.

Happy testing.

Regards

Praveen

[blackchisel97]

I'm confused

I hope I'm not alone I found something in regards to inverted SCR cap pulser battery charger circuit. This is trifilar 1:1 twisted solenoid coil, 25 -250mA 12-14V light bulb and high watt rheostat 1K in series with 10 Ohm going to the base of BD243C. This part is for circuit with rotor - " pick mA size of a bulb that will not make extra pulses when the pot is at it's lowest value, because of the bulb high resistance, but not so large a bulb that will not glow when the motor is running at it's sweet spot drive current flow".
" Tune energizer to it's lowest current/highest rpm sweet spot by adjusting the pot from it's lowest value setting up till the extra pulses start to show up and drive current flow increases, than back off a little, till the extra pulses stop and let stabilize before tweeking any more. On large dia, low rpm rotors, when the extra pulses show up, the bulb will flash a little vs glowing steady. Tune cap pulser till you have 19 -25V on the cap between the pulses, use an analog meter to see the needle swing back and forth between pulses. Use heavy gage wiring for all battery charge/discharge leads. Just about any 15-40A CSR will work. The only way I can get more than 2V more on the cap is when I have 3.3uF. I can easily adjust to 19 - 25V. With 2000uF and up I can't. Also, with 19V on the cap my charging current goes down to 0.80A. With higher capacitance I can only get 0.8 - 1.8 V on the cap but output current goes up to 0.11 -0.13A and voltage on the charging battery is rising. When I quickly disconnect charging battery I have over 220V with 3.3uF cap.


Vtech

[SkyWatcher]

Hi folks, thanks for replies. Hi sucahyo, I think as Bedini has said, that you must use the discharge method to determine the efficiency. I must re-state what I said to some degree, I am charging my 12v, 7AH gel batteries at around 5 watts, though using the 1 ohm test, by replacing the battery being charged with a 1 ohm resistor and measuring voltage across resistor my charger is outputting less than 1 watt, however it takes around 8 hours to fully charge the battery so efficiency seems pretty good actually considering the output.
What I'm getting at and what Bedini has been pointing out is that since like in my setup less than a watt can fully charge this battery in a shorter time than conventional explanations allow for, this can be used to give the cop>60 as Bedini has achieved. Seems its the conditioning and tuning that's needed is all.
peace love light
Tyson

[sucahyo]

I guess if we tweak it long enough, we eventually reach that number. I don't know how many years it would tae me though. Mine is 3% now lol, 250mA version:

Source voltage is 11.5V.

Input current without load = 1 Amp
Input current with load = 2 Amp

Current in the load (charging current) = 0.25 Amp

Voltage in the load part:
without load = 90V
with load = 9.4V
on battery = 2.72V

on total load:
Efficiency = (load voltage*load current)/(source voltage*source current)
Efficiency = (9.4V * 0.25)/(11.5V * 2)
Efficiency = (2.35 Watt)/(23 Watt)
Efficiency = 0.1 ~ 10%


on battery only:
Efficiency = (load voltage*load current)/(source voltage*source current)
Efficiency = (2.72V * 0.25)/(11.5V * 2)
Efficiency = (0.68 Watt)/(23 Watt)
Efficiency = 0.029 ~ 3%

YouTube - My charger measurement


But I still happy that it can charge my NiCd in half an hour now, and the battery stays cool .

[blackchisel97]

Hi SkyWatcher.

Hi folks, this is a quote I found from Peter Lindemann from Ashes pdf file.

Quote "John and I have run tests with prototype, solid-state, radiant chargers that draw ONE WATT (12 volts @ 80ma) from the source battery and can charge a 7 amp-hour gel-cell battery from 10.5 volts (fully discharged) up to 14 volts in under one hour (3600 joules).
This newly charged battery is then discharged by being connected to a sine-wave inverter and running a 100 watt light bulb for 40 minutes (240,000 joules). After discharge, it can be charged back to full again by the one watt charger in about an hour. The COP of the system is very high. The apparent efficiency of this test is COP>60! Even John and I question the math when it is this high. Never the less, we have run dozens of these tests with the COP>20. Different batteries behave differently with different charger configurations." end quote. WOW

Has anyone come close to getting these results from charging one battery or charging the 4 batteries off of one battery and actually getting the 4 batteries fully charged. It may be that the battery must be conditioned properly to get those results and the proper tuning to resonate the battery to achieve these results.

I would say yes, for sure. They have to be conditioned well in order to produce such COP. All my batteries are not conditioned yet. I'm fiddling with solid state Bedini chargers for the past few weeks, trying to find it's "sweet region". Today I plugged battery from my bike, which is very decent. I wound another coil with twisted 4 x 450. I had a length of #24 so decided to twist with others. I have higher input current - 0.280A and currently adjust at 0.11A charging. Capacitor is discharging 0.8V above battery. I changed duty cycle just below 50%. After putting diode between 7 - 2&6 of 555 I did notice 330 Ohm getting warm. I replaced with 1.2k. Everything has ambient temperature (neither warm or cold to touch). Small 60mA bulb in series with pot going to the base of oscillating transistor has a dim glow. Coil oscillates at 1337Hz.

I would love to know which circuit has been tested by John Bedini and Ash but I would settle for a clue about the one on my desk, for now


Vtech

[SkyWatcher]

Has anyone come close to these results.

Hi folks, this is a quote I found from Peter Lindemann from Ashes pdf file.

Quote "John and I have run tests with prototype, solid-state, radiant chargers that draw ONE WATT (12 volts @ 80ma) from the source battery and can charge a 7 amp-hour gel-cell battery from 10.5 volts (fully discharged) up to 14 volts in under one hour (3600 joules).
This newly charged battery is then discharged by being connected to a sine-wave inverter and running a 100 watt light bulb for 40 minutes (240,000 joules). After discharge, it can be charged back to full again by the one watt charger in about an hour. The COP of the system is very high. The apparent efficiency of this test is COP>60! Even John and I question the math when it is this high. Never the less, we have run dozens of these tests with the COP>20. Different batteries behave differently with different charger configurations." end quote.

Has anyone come close to getting these results from charging one battery or charging the 4 batteries off of one battery and actually getting the 4 batteries fully charged. It may be that the battery must be conditioned properly to get those results and the proper tuning to resonate the battery to achieve these results. I myself am having great success in charging lead acid gel cells and other cells, though have not seen the kind of efficiency Peter speaks of, though I have yet to repeatedly condition a battery long enough, which I am now in the process of doing to try and get those efficiencies. Your replies much appreciated.
peace love light
Tyson

[sucahyo]

From what I recall, Aaron mention the use of two kind of capacitor. One with high capacity and low voltage, other with low capacity and high voltage. Each has their own use. Aaron suggest the use of low capacity high voltage to charge battery, maybe this is the most efficient. The high capacity and low voltage is mentioned for self charging properties.

I never succeed in using the discharging capacitor. My optocoupler get very hot and the battery still don't charge as fast as direct radiant. I also now avoid using capacitor in parallel with the charging part because it seems to make the battery heat up.

The Bedini video that posted by you is very usefull for me . At minutes 24 Bedini mention that Nicad ideal charge is 300mA, and you can use up to 500mA. So now I increase the charging current to 320mA. The charger just now increase the voltage of 1000mAh NiCd from 1.29V to 1.4V in 45 minutes.

Edit:45 minutes are too long, I just charge another batch and make it full (1.4V) in 15 minutes.

[blackchisel97]

[QUOTE=sucahyo;70414]I have very different transistor temperature on different duty cycle/frequency. I have the coldest operating temperature when around 15%, where the transistor is at ambient temperature even at 100mA charging current. It will become very hot if I change it. Using 50% duty cycle kill the transistor.[QUOTE] It's logical but doesn't happen in my circuit

[QUOTE]Try to measure transistor temperature.[QUOTE] Everything has ambient temperature (not different than my finger) except coil - 38 degrees C. I'm back to original setup (without duty cycle modification). Just checked with Visual Analizer through PC, duty cycle is 50%. I added two 10nF capacitors in 555 circuit (from 4&8 and 5 to the ground). I still wonder about discharging cap. John Bedini schematics call for 3.3uF polarized but it has to be 450 - 600V. I don't have anything near. I have 3.3uF AC capacitor but isn't polarized. Very similar schematic but with rotor recommends large capacity - 10 000uF and up.
I didn't have a chance to measure small SSG but normally runs 1500 RPM and has 6 poles rotor. I never measured output current but replaced battery with 1 Ohm resistor and voltage across was 0.15V.


Vtech

[sucahyo]

Adding diode changes frequency, which can be adjusted with capacitor; increasing value will lower frequency. It works but I have a feeling that something isn't 100% right.

I have very different transistor temperature on different duty cycle/frequency. I have the coldest operating temperature when around 15%, where the transistor is at ambient temperature even at 100mA charging current. It will become very hot if I change it. Using 50% duty cycle kill the transistor.

Try to measure transistor temperature.

I always keep under C20. My SS stays under 100mA on the output regardless of battery size. It seems that circuit self adjusts and battery takes what she needs. I have a pot and small 60mA bulb in series in base of oscillating transistor. I can change input current but output stays pretty much the same.

I notice it too. It seems the current is decided with how much power the charging part has. If the load resistance is high (battery pack) the current will be low, and if the load resistance in low (single 1.2V battery), the current will be very high.

[blackchisel97]

[QUOTE=sucahyo;70409]I think that hydrogen/oxygen generation should not be called boiling since it is not water vapor but element created by electrolysis process. If And I think the generation of oxygen and hydrogen gas is unavoidable in batery charging. Although the rate it produce may introduce danger if heated up. Maybe I used wrong word but it was described according to my visual observation. Rapid gassing IMO isn't beneficial. We want to de sulfate battery and form fine crystals on the plates, which will increase plate surface. When done rapidly (charging/discharging) crystals will not form properly and will fell during discharge.

One more reason why charging at moderate current is not a problem for me. The Nicd is used to power mini4wd toy which may consume up to 6 Amp, about 1 Amp minimum when the motor is running. The battery is fated to have short life, I think charging it at rather high rate wouldn't reduce it more.
I agree.

I have some experience with electrolysis and the water won't boil if the cell voltage is kept low. And I think at under 1.5V per cell I still within the cold electrolysis voltage. This is a different boiling, it's done with HV and very little current. There is a bottleneck effect on the terminal causing rapid ion migration. There is no heat. Heat can be observed when we push (force) current. This will result in sulfate build up and premature death of battery.I currently use hho cells in series with the charging battery as load. It looks like normal electrolysis although the bubble in the hho cells do look finer than usual. The hho cells require around the same amount of current when using straight dc.

The bubble generated in the hho cell definitely not from cold boiling but from oxygen/hydrogen generated by electrolysis process when we power two electrode in alkaline solution. I agree again


Do you still usee C/20 for you 1000Ah? How did you manage to raised the current in the charging part?

I always keep under C20. My SS stays under 100mA on the output regardless of battery size. It seems that circuit self adjusts and battery takes what she needs. I have a pot and small 60mA bulb in series in base of oscillating transistor. I can change input current but output stays pretty much the same.


Vtech

[blackchisel97]

changing duty cycle

I tried to change duty cycle in my S.State Bedini. Connecting diode works and enables cycle to be changed below 50% however, after couple of hours test I didn't notice any significant benefit. Adding diode changes frequency, which can be adjusted with capacitor; increasing value will lower frequency. It works but I have a feeling that something isn't 100% right.


Vtech