My Motors got me to Tap into Radiant Energy

[JohnStone]

@UFO:
Summing up what I understood in order to check correctness:

1. One qualification check should be to drive the motor via one single gate and it should run idling at max. duty (25% for 4 gate design, 16,66 for 6 gate design). Preferred less duty than max.
Questions:

• Should the motor arrive in this test requested speed i.e. 3600rpm?
• Any hint regarding voltage or ratio voltage/current?

2. Every setup requires a certain minimum voltage / current in order to start the magic:
- We need an area (angle) where we (a) feed a gate actively and another area (angle) where we (b) harvest HER gift.
- It is preferred to decrease charging area (angle) and increase harversting area (angle)
- Harvesting energy depends on amount of magnetic energy being interupted in a sudden from hot current. Magentic energy being linearly related to hot current applied and number of turns and somehow design of coil (bifilar...).
- Overall magnetic energy in the motor is being built up at startup and maintained while running.
- Harvesting depends on maximum current reached at every pulse just before interruption. It can be build up slowly by low voltage (high duty required) or fast by higher voltage (lower duty required).

3. Suggestion for test. (please comment or confirm)
All builders shall take data from test below:
- Set up your preferred voltge (1.....4 batteries)
- Take data with one single gate energized and with all gates energized

• When idling: check max. rpm at full duty cycle (25% for 4 gate design ....)
• When idling: chack max. rpm at have duty cycle (12.5% for 4 gate design...)
• Let's discuss data obtained

Hint: Most processes in nature are nonlinear. It is estimated that this applies to harvesting radiant as well. Hence it might be very convenient to apply (later on) short high voltge pulses in order to drive magnetic effects in nonlinear area while feeding minute hot energy at input. (Given the state at very switch off time is essential).
With this in mind I feel it to be very importent to find an initial test procedure like suggested above in order to have a solid and common foundation for further elicitations.
JS

[Ufopolitics]

My Two Cents...

Hello to All,

As I see Dana's and Kogs point, and I agree with them both...I would not render any opinion about Code Writing...since I am not involved into this very interesting stage of this Set Up...so far...But, I will give you my opinion related to "something" I know very well...My Machines...

I know , as many of you who have played with this Machines...That they draw quite some energy at start up...to then start a process I call "equalization" ...where all coils get charged up and starting the process of In-Out...and Out-In...
The point I want you to understand is that this Machines, completely different than Symmetrical...Pulse ONE Coil at a Time, (from one Gate) to then "automatically disconnect" from source...BUT, there are fractions of Time (in between)...where there could be TWO Coils at same time receiving Energy...

Now, IF We are drawing energy from Output...then Coils are being discharged at this stage...therefore the "Equalization" does not occur...for as long as we keep loading output.

Now related to Imperial/Generator Head Set Up:

When we connect ALL Four Gates as Input, either Linear feed OR pulsing them with ANY Kind of Oscillator/PWM (Not Referring to Arduino + Four Monster Pulser) or even with Relays/Solenoids being pulsed the actuating coils ...there is no Output Draw, ALL Four Gates are receiving Energy...therefore, "Equalization" DOES occur at certain -short- time of Machine Operation. This Effect, could be observed easily...with an Amp Meter...However, as soon as we add a mechanical drag/load (Mecc Alte/Generator Head being loaded) Amps start to Increase again at Imperial...Why this happen?...Because we are using a LINEAR/NON CHANGING FEED, either straight from batteries...or with a Typical PWM Controller that send ONE SIGNAL SAME TIMING for ALL Four Gates (again, not talking about Arduino/Monsters)

Then, getting back to the way Arduino/Monster Pulsers are running Imperial in your set up is completely different than above Methods, however, there is no Output...difference is: You are sending only ONE SIGNAL, BUT, AT DIFFERENT TIMES, HOWEVER, SAME SIGNAL (MUST BE SO!, THE SAME SIGNAL)

Now, here goes "THE MAIN LAW" that "must comply"-Rule here for Machine to run perfect, smooth, and stronger than ever...

FIRST You Guys must MAKE SURE that just One Gate Feed at Imperial (preferably Gate One(1))/Switched by JUST A single Monster Pulser, connected to Pin of Channel 1 from Arduino...Turns your Motor.

Now, I understand that at Quad Blink (Dana's Code) You only could increase Duty at 25% MAX...AND, maybe 25% is NOT Enough to turn Imperial this way...I don't know, You Guys could tell me...as I suggested this test to Machine Alive a while back...when we were troubleshooting His Set Up...maybe I did not explained myself clearly...

But this is the ONLY WAY I see...that You guys could find out if your Signal/Pulses contains the required parameters to turn On, the required magnetic field to turn that Imperial Rotor.

If at 25% Duty...One Gate Pulse/Signal...does not turn your Motor...then, it "could" turn Rotor with all four working...however...Your Machine will NOT be strong enough to make his duty "expected"...like we are looking for to achieve.


So here...Either Quad Blink or Gerry's Code...will reach a 25% Max not to create overlapping of signals through time (Gerry's will do it at 255 Duty of Inner Pulses)

We will have to make this simple test Guys...otherwise we will not achieve our goals.

Now,Honestly Guys... if Duty must go above 25% in order that just One Channel/Gate turns Imperial Rotor...then guys, we must start conceiving/thinking of something else...another design...another type of pulse...that can make it happen...meaning, being able to increase Duty % beyond 25 without overlapping Signals.

And IT IS VERY IMPORTANT to find out WHICH % of Duty Cycle is required to Turn that Rotor with just one Gate ...since from this very important % VALUE on...we must start building/conceiving a new Method...

Now, this Duty Cycle % may not/should not, be the same for all of you, since you have different wire gauge/turns configurations per Pairs in your Imperial Machine...and this changes everything...from Coil Equalization Point...to Amp Draw...to Magnetic Field required strength-consumption. However, when the Codes will be written, a ('#%') could be changed according to your different values .

Warm Regards to all


Ufopolitics

[JohnStone]

@Kogs, @Garry:
The concern mentioned above might be true - might not. Up to now we have estimations only but we need to know. The concern might become true in future and might be then hidden occuring at very special conditions only.

I suggest to toggle an unused output port while idling in the main loop. Then we can inspect it by scope. We will very clearly see then load condition

• fast toggling -> idling
• prelonged low or high conditions -> busy

If those periods coincide with strange motor behaviour we know why!

Apart that: all data aquisition tasks can be separated later on. I would prefer to do it from very beginning but my opinion is of no importance. Those who do the hands on work shall decide. A plurality of approaches are possible.

Kogs: Your concern regarding wire length is a smart thought! You got it: digging into all possible malfunctions! But here it relates to FET switching speed only and acts locally.
Let me explain:
1. We need fast switching speed in order to keep FETs cool
2. and to stop current instantly. Stopping current does not relate to any wire length. If current is stopped locally it IS stopped. DOT..... Then leads, magnet wire, magnetic energy ...... act together in order to call HER.

JS

[iankoglin]

Hello All
I was concerned about choking the pulse by heavy primary Arduino code and still am. Vary much so. There is an issue that I have been dealing with for months now, dealing with this code thing. As you I worked on code in its simplest form in the arduino and it worked. I then started to add one interrupt and all went crazy on the scope and motor. My unprofessional interpretation at that time was that even thou it did not make sense by the numbers, it was choked as our machine and circuit are extremely responsive due to our use of (asymmetric) tech. So what I did was create all other code in the control panel and just send one signal at a time to the arduino, treating it like a tractor (simple and isolated function but strong. When I wanted to change pulse, the arduino only got one serial command and went back to uninterrupted function. This is why I did not proceed with further code in all the versions I showed you guys. I was writing the control panel code and having success when Garry came on board. Garry has demonstrated that he is the best coder I have ever seen and can do it fast and clean. I stepped out as I should have. Using the code for about two weeks now for me has been frustrating. Although at first I thought Garry had overcome the time choke issue, I do not see that at this time.
I took the new code and only entered basic changes about what my system was. I ran it in all modes and found a motor that would sometimes run almost smooth and after stopping and just starting, got oscillation activities going on. Here is a video of just one type of event that occurs. I show this first as it is probably the least important as others are problems that occur with control issues such as adding just 5 more duty cycle, gives a 2100 jump in RPM and when you take that 5 away and even 50 duty cycle away,NO change in motor RPM. I believe the system is jammed.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nbrlb2n7fdgqdjj/GarryPulser.wmv

My motors are bullet proof, my monster drivers are bullet proof. I use a scope and a motor to test these things. I believe that all this will be worked out and is doable. I understand that Garry has no scope or running motor at this time. That is like a great artist, carving something with no eyes. We must, if we can see that he gets these things. I want to make it clear that I do not put down Garry in any way, I am trying to get everybody on one track whatever that track is, but it must work.

Dana

G'day Dana, Garry et al
With out prejudice
I have not done any programming for some time now and my concern I mentioned back in June 15 Page 163 was that the speed of the motor and the speed of the executable program running the motor.

http://www.energeticforum.com/233260-post4880.html

I did say that it could interrupt the running of the motor if the same processor was used to do all checking
Dana you did Say that you had everything under control and later when You Garry came on the scene you was able to explain how the Arduino was able to handle all the necessary side checking
I am not in any way saying I know more than anyone else I have not programmed any real programming for some years now and I know that things have changed in many ways especially with the speed that programs run.
I am writing this because I still feel that a dedicated processor is still needed for the running of the motors and why?
The motors switch 4 brushes @ 3600 revolutions x 4 brushes =14400 a second which is not too fast with regard to the processor speed BUT what if just when the motor segment of the program is about to either switch Off or On AND AT THAT MOMENT the particular brush the program services an interrupt and it only takes a mille second to do so and when the program returns to the motor running portion of the program to either switch Off or On that particular brush but the motor has passed that real time and has moved on to the next brush instead of switching that particular brush On or off it is really switching the previous one.
This I feel is perhaps the problem as we are really splitting the Duty cycle and this servicing other interrupts destroys the smooth running of the motor
Remember that the smooth running of the Motor could be interrupted at any of the 14400 times every second and how would the motor feel?

Remember that John Stone when designing the Monster Driver he stated that he calculated the distance in mm's of the wire because that extra mm would make a difference to the working of the Monster
How much could a 2mm difference in wire length make to a Monster driver Especially if the wire is only 25mm long?

Kindest Regards

Kogs No thinking aloud He just thinks quietly but sometimes says what he thinks

[JohnStone]

@Dana:
May I ask you to make wires between FET driver and FETs as short as possible. Please use FATTTTTTT wires especially for GND driver to source pin of FET. Please do it!!!!

Apart from a possible malfunction of code it is possible motors do not behave linearly. Most facts in nature er NOT lienear. If you hit a sweet spot your setup will like to stay there.

@Garry: Just a hint in case you detect the ramp up or control algorithm needs be reworked please look at Arduino PID lib. It is amazing what they have done as errr processing apart the normal function. All components of P D I can be tuned separtely and on the fly and any of tehm can be made ineffective.
There is an autotune lib as well available.
link link
One of those links discusses code part for part.
I am convinced that a mon with your ecpertease can read and understand exactly what there is going on there.

@ALL: Using Garry's pulser program: Adjust serial monitor to "No line ending" at bottom. else it will add some codes and the programm will reject any command.
JS

[prochiro]

Friendly Discussion About Code Overload

Hello All
I was concerned about choking the pulse by heavy primary Arduino code and still am. Vary much so. There is an issue that I have been dealing with for months now, dealing with this code thing. As you I worked on code in its simplest form in the arduino and it worked. I then started to add one interrupt and all went crazy on the scope and motor. My unprofessional interpretation at that time was that even thou it did not make sense by the numbers, it was choked as our machine and circuit are extremely responsive due to our use of (asymmetric) tech. So what I did was create all other code in the control panel and just send one signal at a time to the arduino, treating it like a tractor (simple and isolated function but strong. When I wanted to change pulse, the arduino only got one serial command and went back to uninterrupted function. This is why I did not proceed with further code in all the versions I showed you guys. I was writing the control panel code and having success when Garry came on board. Garry has demonstrated that he is the best coder I have ever seen and can do it fast and clean. I stepped out as I should have. Using the code for about two weeks now for me has been frustrating. Although at first I thought Garry had overcome the time choke issue, I do not see that at this time.
I took the new code and only entered basic changes about what my system was. I ran it in all modes and found a motor that would sometimes run almost smooth and after stopping and just starting, got oscillation activities going on. Here is a video of just one type of event that occurs. I show this first as it is probably the least important as others are problems that occur with control issues such as adding just 5 more duty cycle, gives a 2100 jump in RPM and when you take that 5 away and even 50 duty cycle away,NO change in motor RPM. I believe the system is jammed.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nbrlb2n7fdgqdjj/GarryPulser.wmv

My motors are bullet proof, my monster drivers are bullet proof. I use a scope and a motor to test these things. I believe that all this will be worked out and is doable. I understand that Garry has no scope or running motor at this time. That is like a great artist, carving something with no eyes. We must, if we can see that he gets these things. I want to make it clear that I do not put down Garry in any way, I am trying to get everybody on one track whatever that track is, but it must work.

Dana

[JohnStone]

I'm not a well experienced user of microprocesors but even 16Mhz is barely enough for some tasks. For example when you want pure sinewave inverter you need a big table of switching parameters for each single small sqaure wave step for 4 mosfets in H-bridge configuration plus an overhead of errors and overload detecting and so on...

What I'm very interested in is how you would make atomic sequence yet allow for good processing of interrupts : for example you have a set of critical commands (like completiion of moving interrupter arm to the next switching position- which has to be done as one without interruption of any kind) , yet you want to shutdown main loop when the temperature sensor will set some interrupt state high ? Any info would help me and maybe this project too ?

1. The exact MHz value is important for timing calculations.
2. There is no general way for dealing with concurring demands. It depends on drawbacks being acceptable for real applications. "Real time" application does not mean plenty of processing power and don't care -> but-> any action consumes "real time" and needs to be negotiated in order to behave in a predictable way. There is a whole science around this fact but no easy general approach. In feel it is much more helpful to empoly two micros than endless negotiating - sometimes.
Cheers
JS

[boguslaw]

I'm not a well experienced user of microprocesors but even 16Mhz is barely enough for some tasks. For example when you want pure sinewave inverter you need a big table of switching parameters for each single small sqaure wave step for 4 mosfets in H-bridge configuration plus an overhead of errors and overload detecting and so on...

What I'm very interested in is how you would make atomic sequence yet allow for good processing of interrupts : for example you have a set of critical commands (like completiion of moving interrupter arm to the next switching position- which has to be done as one without interruption of any kind) , yet you want to shutdown main loop when the temperature sensor will set some interrupt state high ? Any info would help me and maybe this project too ?

[JohnStone]

[sampojo]

Tour de force

Bravo Garry, superb analysis in realtime safety critical process control available to us via a small hobby platform.

I may come across like broken record but am interested in the pulses within pulse I saw on one of machines videos. I am intrigued by pulsing once per commutator segment, which quickly gets up into the RF range. I figure that to be about 100Khz for an Imperial. And that pulse could have its own duty cycle too. And then we could try to find a motor's harmonic freq. too. Methinks She would like that. Seems possible still on the arduino ( I think John said the FETs would fry, although Machine I thought said they were running cool...)

[GChilders]

processor load

Dear John Stone,
Although the Arduino is a midget compared to the microprocessor installed in most desktop and laptop computers, it is a giant compared to the computers of old. Its primary limitation is in available ram and not in processing power. The ATMega328 has a processing speed of 20 MHz with up to 20 million instructions per second throughput. The design is based on the reduced instruction set computer model with pipelines that are more flexable than traditional pipeline structures. This allows the processor to access up to two registers simultaneously, and to have multiple threads going simultaneously.
Lets examine the pulse width modulator and how much overhead this requires of the processor, because overall it is a minute portion of the processing power available to us. The pwm operates at 490 hertz whereas the processor operates a 20 mega hertz. John I know you understand what this means, and many others here also, so this is for the benefit of the uninformed. Basically a hertz is one cycle per second. In the U.S. our electricity that we hook up to is 60 hertz or 60 cycles per second. In Europe it is 50 hertz or 50 cycles per second. In the ATMega 328, the processor in the Uno and many other Arduino designs, there are 20 million hertz per second. Kilo Hertz = 1000 hertz per second, Mega Hertz = 1000 kilo Hertz per second or in the case ot the arduino 20 mega hertz = 20 million hertz per second. Since one instruction is possible per hertz, this is optimal and probably not realistic, there is a lot of room left for the processor to execute instructions even while the pwm is pulsing. At first I questioned this until I started reading the data sheets and although a midget by comparison to our computers, it is impressive indeed.
20,000.000 - 490 = 19,999,510 instructions per second that may still be executed while the processor is pulsing the motor. I am confident that this is quite capable of doing what we need it to do.
Careful programming is essential. Delays are an area that will continue to get us in trouble, because they tell the processor to stop processing code for a prescribed period of time. The delays in the radiantMotorControl are designed to allow the processor to continue pulsing the motor for a prescribed amount of time. These delays are necessary. There was a delay put into the serial commands of 250 milliseconds that caused havoc in the motor control. When this delay was reduced to 15 milliseconds the motor control worked seamlessly. Any long delay in a sensor subroutine, or an lcd subroutine is anathema. It will have a dibilitating effect upon the motor circuit. The real benefit of the I2C type of sensor is that the data is stored on the registers on the sensor and can be called at anytime for data input to the program without delays to gather and quantify the readings, The instruction overhead is practically nil. This type sensor can have many sensors on two input pins. I am not sure if you object to the Dallas single wire sensors. I am not familiar with the quality of these sensors but they only require one pin for many sensors to operate on. Both methods call the data on the register into the program.
Dana was concerned about interrupts interferring with the orderly execution of code. I would advise that all interrupt code be minimal with no scheduled delays during the interrupt calls and there should be no problems there.
20 megahertz may sound slow when compared to 2 or 3 gigahertz processors. 1000 megahertz = 1 giga hertz but it is more than enough speed to control our motors which if turning 20,000 rpm, very fast motor, will still be operating at a mere 333.33 hertz.

Cheers

Garry

[JohnStone]

.....
Connected with Klein regarding Crest Factor: The Crest Factor on both the MM2000 and CL2000 True RMS meters is 3 to 1 at full scale and 6 to 1 at half scale.
.....

Ahh! Thanks! That is fine and better than expected. But a known restriciton as well.
JS

[JohnStone]

@ALL:
As measurements with Arduino approach I'd like to share some notions in order to convert innocent expectations in real working units.
We need to accept all conditions we throw Arduino into and deal with them in order to get our little dwarf running smoothly.

Noise and EMC:
Only those whose circuits once suffered severely on noise and EMC disturbance can feel what I intend to share next. The rest of you please get it by your mind only.
As I postred recently our setups emit EMC much more than indiustrial grade accepted. Hence we need to prepare provisions preventing us from being fooled. You pobably red my posts regarding how our meters fool us - and most of them are professional made. What about a tinkered Ardunio meter - will it fool less?
Please accept I am not an anxious man but I am used to submit rugged circuits for medical care and hence claim to know some of our future implications and solutions as well. Fortunately solutions are mostly simple but nevertheless inevitable.

Implications with analog signals
Analog sinals are called "analog" because they reflect seamlessly real conditions as "analog" electric signal. The drawback ist any disturbance - independently from where it was sourced - will be part of the signal as well, it will stick on the real signal und distort it. This component called noise.

We know the difficulty to understand words in a (analog) noisy environment. Understanding is only possible because our brain supports plenty of computing power and tricks like massive redundance in order to correlate and filter what we want to hear. Unfortunately our dwarf has no brain power and we ourselves need to keep signals clear from dirt.
As allway in life: if we konw the danger we can fight agains successfully.

Sources for noise:
1. Unfortunately the first source for noise is our Arduino itself. Any current from an digital pin like our pulse outputs add their contribution to GND noise. Apart that Artmel submitted knowledge on how to get rid of some self noise. There is a special ADC mode to adjust, we can add a smooth reference voltage. But the most disturbance will be the pulsing digital pins for motor control.

2. Another source of noise is the noisy environment. Semiconductors tend to rectify any incoming noise and submit it as DC offset. Do not expect that simple transitors ar digital circutis do not receive energy from mobile phones (up to 100V/m - that is severe!!!!!). The truth is they are not specified for those frequencies but they very probably will react in an unspecified manner.
Last but not least we have the distubance from our setup - not specified as well.

3. Mostly overseen are GND currents. Any conductor is a resistor and any 100mA current as peak on GND line will fool analog digital converters. Please accept that Arduino owns a 10Bit ADC (analog to digital converter). 10 bit makes 1024 steps possible. We will get maximum 9 bit usable = 512 steps. Now devide 100V by 512 and we get steps of about 200mV precision - maximum!!!!! in clear environment.
So you can understand why I would prefer to read current and voltage by a 12Bit (16K steps) ADC directly at unit under test.

How to procede
1. Separated supply is essential. Fortunately Ardunio does not consume much power. A battery is possible but I recommend simple socket chargers for initial setup. You will possibly get some 5V from USB chargers from mobile phones.

2. ONE SINGLE GND point possible for reference. More connections will generate severe and unpredictable noise ground currents.

3. Maximum one single GND connection to unit under test. All others need to be isolated. We need it for measuring voltage. Hence Allegro current sensor with 1KV isolation.

4. Using twisted pairs of wires. They help in some extent to cancel out external noise. All other shapes of wiring will add a superb areal for receiving distubance. The gain of such an antenna is direct proportinal to the area those wires encircle.

5. Shielded electonic box and shielded cables. Think in terms of a glove. The glove is the metal shield. Your plam is Ardunio sitting in a metal box and the fingers are the shielded cables. On teh tips of teh glove fingers we find sitting our sensors.

6. I strongly recommend to separate thoroughly motor control and pure measurement equipment. It makes all tasks much more simpler. Hardware, programming, debugging ....... And in the end it will save money because less components killed.


BTW: I am so sticky because we need to supply some proves later on and I do not want you to struggle with unreliable tools. Imagine we can prove the battery supplying 300W while charging up!

Please do not despair if your brain does not get those facts above for now. You will get it later on. But please be prepard to do some thigns differnt than expected and to use multiple and dedicated Arduinos.
JS

[JohnStone]

Hi Garry,
thanks again for your help. Your programm acts like quick motion to our thread.

Computing power consumed?
Have you got any idea on how much processor power is being consumed by pulsing? I doubt we can load it with much more tasks except motor control. Simplest way could be to toggle a free pin when idling. In the end we need some computer power left for possible elicitations.
A simple scope measurement can show the average load.

I2C / TWI:
There is one I2C current sensor available but it is max 36V and never will stand our severe spikes.
I suggest Allegro devicees with 1KV isiolation. We can connect them to Arduino analog input directly. I hesitate to do so.
Alternatively there is a 12Bit ADC available with I2C.

Give me some days for thinking.
JS

[Cornboy 555]

Attraction.

Hello Garry, it is amazing how the right people, at the right time, are naturally attracted to this task at hand, thanks soo much for your endles hours of work here, friend.

As you are probably aware, i will be pulsing wound stators, as well as the rotor, with MAG3, and i will need 9 Monsters, to tame the Beast, with 6 signals. It surely will be interesting, and i am spending whatever spare time i have now on getting it finished.

Warm Regards Cornboy.