Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[penno64]

Hi Slider,

Where in the pic of the tube/coil can I find the bobbin with screw type
ferite ?

Regards, Penno

[Steve220]

Shorted coils

OK,
I have officially checked out, this has gone way over my head.

Strands 1 and 2 look to be in parallel not shorted. in fact I don't see any "shorted" strands in this coil schematic, only 2 sets of strands in parallel with themselves, one set with 2 strands the other set w/ 3 strands, then these two sets are in series - and this is being used as the drive coil not a pickup coil?
I'm going to give my old eyes a break - come back to this later and read the posts w/ fresh eyes. thanks...

Patrick

I agree, it is strange, but if you look at strands 1 and 2 connected together at both ends, they are shorted back through the coil.
They are parallel and shorted all at the same time.
Instead of being shorted outside the coil, they are shorted inside the coil. The current in the strands 1 and 2 runs in a circle inside the coil.
An internal short circuit instead of an external short circuit.

A automatic short circuit too, as it don't have any other choice.
Now to complicate things more, strands 1 and 2 are in series with the other strands that are in parallel and shorted together internal to the coil and they are in series too.

I think this odd wiring arrangement is what causes the odd coil operation as shown in sliders video.
It seems to act as a generator coil at lower speeds and then transforms to a rotor booster coil when shorted at the external leads causing the rotor to speed up.
The external short is removed and the the internal shorting takes over causing (I guess) the coil core to build up a magnetic field BTDC and then release a pulse of magnetic core pulse ATDC, pushing against the rotor magnet, causing the rotor to speed up.

The faster the rotor runs, the faster the rotor runs. Kind of a self reinforcing action in the coil.
The internal released magnetic pulse ATDC (may be) stronger than the magnetic field that built up in the coil BTDC.
A internal to the coil, core ATDC intense magnetic repulsion spike to the rotor magnet.

May be not OU, but the magnetic field (may) in this situation have the ability to "stack up" the spikes at the higher rotor speeds.
If so, the "stacked up" magnetic field spikes release ATDC in the coil could become self reinforcing causing the rotor magnets to be pushed ever faster, as shown in the videos.

It don't seem to act as a generator coil at the higher rotor speeds, but a rotor magnet booster coil at the higher rotor speeds.

Also this intense magnetic core spike (if correct) to the rotor magnets ATDC, may cause the clunking sound that is present in the R UK videos.
I tend to think "clunky" sound, is a good sound.

Anyway,
It sure ain't normal.

Steve

[ewizard]

I tore a couple monitors apart about a month ago. One had Litz wire and one did not. Lots of great parts in them but definitely need to be careful as Slider says. Very high voltage can linger in some of these for a long time. Also very easy to break the tube necks and the stuff inside would be very dangerous if you got cut and got it onto a cut. Using heavy gloves is a good idea when you are fiddling around the neck area.

[Slider2732]

Some notes about obtaining the wire from monitor necks.
I know several people might like to try these coils and especially as they are the ones Romero used, but have never even seen the inside of a PC monitor.
HV exists for sometimes many weeks inside a tube based monitor, but no, it needn't fill anyone with fear, if sensible precautions are taken.

The HV and large DC voltages are within the monitor tube and the large capacitors. The simplest method of ensuring safety, is to only touch a monitor that was last used in say 2007 !
With that not being practical, here's what we can do.
Do reference decent discharging articles if unsure, such as this one: FREE PC HARDWARE TEACHING: repair and troubleshooting of a computer and video monitor

Once the case screws have been removed and any swivel base also removed, the rear of the monitor will lift away.
You'll see something similar to this pic, taken from the above link:


Using a plastic handled screwdriver, you can move around any large capacitor and short between the terminals. That's the rough and ready approach, a big ceramic white 10W resistor is another way. Also short the pins on the board that sits at the back of the tube. The tube itself need not be discharged when familiar with the procedure but it's advisable. One method is to tightly wind a mains thickness wire around the metal of the screwdriver and attach the other end to the metal chassis. Now, wearing a rubber glove or gardening glove, push the screwdriver under the rubber suction cup on the main part of the tube, its the round rubber thing with the thick red wire leading to the flyback large box on the circuit board. You'll hear a small snap, nearly identical to a piezo lighter and then will probably wonder what the fuss is about. If that is the situation, then you've done it correctly ! Repeat that push under the cap a couple more times and the tube is then discharged - the monitor is safe. To further ensure safety, snip the large red wire.

Now, how do we get the wire off to wind coils with ?
Here's something similar to what you'll be looking at:


The main board at the bottom there will pull off from the pins of the tube neck.
Next, you'll see the (reusable) screw clamps. Unscrew those and remove the clamps.
The focus rings are the black thin circles of what looks like ferrite, these will pull away and off quite readily.
At this point, you might have a situation where the whole rest of the assembly simply lifts off with some gentle left/right twisting job done
Otherwise, any large gobs of glue are what will be holding the assembly in place. You can run a knife or the screwdriver into this glue and, while gently twisting, the assembly will suddenly break free and be able to be lifted off.
Tube necks can break, but it takes some force and a heavy handed approach.

Finally, the large ferrite pieces that may obscure the multi-strand wire will snap off in 2 halves. Clips often join them and they can be removed with a flat ended screwdriver. Once popped off, tap the ferrite with the screwdriver handle with a sharp rap and the pieces will then come away from the multi-strand wire sitting underneath.


I hope that may be of use to some folks and don't forget all the extra goodies from the monitor. Transistors, heatsinks, degauss coil, capacitors, resistors and more.

[blackchisel97]

I ran small test with my setup today and rotor - coil spacing seems critical as far as output wave, additional magnet placing and the drag changes accordingly. I have my coils mounted so start winding is facing stators and end of windings facing rotor. End of top coil is connected to the start of bottom coil. Shorting does very little to the circuit. When I have neon NE2 across the coil and un short manually, depending on the spot (sine wave) I'm getting flash. With proper cap when I hit the peak of sine neon flashes purple. Rotor is going too fast atm, over 3,000 rpm and I think different trigger would be better (lower rpm). My coils are single strand, full sewing bobbin. Both wound cw and starting ends facing stators.
I'll work on harvesting those spikes at the right time and timed dumping, when motor is off. I want to get this done on bipolar transistors if I can.

Edit: I think this may be wrong track. "Normal" coil configuration and serial cap seems better.


V

[Slider2732]

Indeed dear sir, which is why a CFL was stuck across the back looks like the same logic.
I have no idea how he wound up with such an arrangement or what the prompt was to try it, but it hauls very well and after winding up to a thousand turns of mini gauge wire time after time, these thicker bundles are a delight.

The coil mA draw on my second one is 40mA @12V, so says the Sperry SP-6A.

I haven't seen it perform the shorted speed up phenomena on the other test rotor, so will try it on the original box type one. Looks like the other rotor is more tuned than the supposedly better one i've since been testing with.
Not much is logical with these Romero/Muller methods - and I like it


Wife has decided an order needs to be made with Harbor Freight, she says she often hears shouts at 2am of "so what kind of reading is that supposed to be ?" lol. Would people recommend a couple of the $4.99 red Cen-Tech meters or 1 of the $19.99 clamp types ? I'm worried about busting something with HV, which i'm wondering might have caused the problems with my scope (was it Bolt who has that hilarious video of a meter showing increasing voltage and then he bangs it harshly on the table cos it's actually broken ?).

[minoly]

OK,
I have officially checked out, this has gone way over my head.

Strands 1 and 2 look to be in parallel not shorted. in fact I don't see any "shorted" strands in this coil schematic, only 2 sets of strands in parallel with themselves, one set with 2 strands the other set w/ 3 strands, then these two sets are in series - and this is being used as the drive coil not a pickup coil?
I'm going to give my old eyes a break - come back to this later and read the posts w/ fresh eyes. thanks...

Patrick

[Slider2732]

I've read of the Magnacoaster, but never looked into it...will do though.
Having read every post on the OU thread until yesterday, Romero's use of monitor wire for the posted pic of how he wired his coils was what prompted a replication, as best I could.

Input amps haven't been looked at yet, but i've built up another coil...which also works well. It hasn't been shorted and the rest yet, but I wanted to pass on some findings.
Oh, my scope seems to be shot somehow At switch on, I get a very minor but constant sort of little ripple across the screen and that's all. Knobs and whatnot still work but there's no signal apparently from anything. It could be the leads though. Scope is old - EICO TR-410.

The new coil is slightly bigger, wound on a bobbin also found on the neck of a monitor.
Crappy pics, but here's the build procedure. Left is the bare coil, with the screw in ferrite core seen, then middle is the wire having been wrapped in layers, on the right is the coil with strands soldered and now wrapped in Blenderm type medical tape to protect:



Things noticed immediately on testing. If located very close to the rotor, this thing will rattle and bang on each magnet pass. I noted the sound to be similar to Romero's video...which is all a bit weird in a way. He used sewing bobbins, but, this ferrite inside the monitor bobbin is actually rattling with pure strength within, even though it feels secure. The coil is strong when energized, it pulled 2 magnets off their superglue mounts before a magnet went on the back.
A hum effect can be sensed with the hand if placed on top of the coil. At switch on, with the Hall sensing a magnet and switching on, the coil resonates at a mains type hum. I think that's how the neon lights with no rotor movement, some internal resonance thing.

I like your explanation Steve, must have took more working out than the wires on these coils !
From the size of this coil and looking at Romero's pics, I think the whole 300 turns thing was 50 turns x6 strands.

I'm liking the inbuilt adjustable ferrites on these monitor bobbins...small turns and the effects noted will be, er, noted

[Steve220]

Also remember

BTW, R UK said early on, that he used wire out of old computer CRT deflection coils in his coils.

I do think there could be some sort of a connection here.

[gravityblock]

If you have seven wires in the wire bundle and short 1 and 2 together on both ends as shown, you are shorting wires 1 and 2 internal to the coil.
So the connections indicate a combination shorted and series coil, to me any way.
So there is automatic coil shorting going on along with an output from the coil. A simi shorted out coil.

1 and 2 are shorted out, but back through the coil, not around it, plus the shorted out 1 and 2 wires is still part of the output circuit.

3 4 5 6 7 well may be too

But the internal shorted coils may be, acting as a kind internal boost circuit that when the rotor magnet passes, the current is stored up in the coils magnetic field BTDC and released after TDC causing the rotor to speed up, all automatic.
If it released ATDC, then it looks like the coil core might push against the rotor magnet ATDC, and cancel out any attraction.

The more it speeds up, the more it speeds up, until the boost can't boost any more.
The load on the coil wires was only needed to get it going.
When the load was removed, it just kept on going, as shown in the video.
A CRT defelection coil was never designed to do what it is doing here in this application.

May be this strange internal coil wiring arrangement can get around Lenz.

If so, then the deflection type coil, could act just as a booster coil only for the rotor.
Other "normal" coils could be used as generator coils.

Might work.

Well said!

GB

[Steve220]

Coil shorting sort of

If you have seven wires in the wire bundle and short 1 and 2 together on both ends as shown, you are shorting wires 1 and 2 internal to the coil.
So the connections indicate a combination shorted and series coil, to me any way.
So there is automatic coil shorting going on along with an output from the coil. A simi shorted out coil.

1 and 2 are shorted out, but back through the coil, not around it, plus the shorted out 1 and 2 wires is still part of the output circuit.

3 4 5 6 7 well may be too

But the internal shorted coils may be, acting as a kind internal boost circuit that when the rotor magnet passes, the current is stored up in the coils magnetic field BTDC and released after TDC causing the rotor to speed up, all automatic.
If it released ATDC, then it looks like the coil core might push against the rotor magnet ATDC, and cancel out any attraction.

The more it speeds up, the more it speeds up, until the boost can't boost any more.
The load on the coil wires was only needed to get it going.
When the load was removed, it just kept on going, as shown in the video.
A CRT defelection coil was never designed to do what it is doing here in this application.

May be this strange internal coil wiring arrangement can get around Lenz.

If so, then the deflection type coil, could act just as a booster coil only for the rotor.
Other "normal" coils could be used as generator coils.

Might work.

[minoly]

I must be missing something, he's connecting stuff (CFL/neon) across the coil.
JB did this in DVD 2 changing the impedance of the load changes the speed of the rotor.
have you measured the input amps - pretty sure that coil is osculating and using energy to do so. the rotor can not keep up w/ the self osculating part until you change the impedance with a "load", then the juice is allowed to go to the rotor. lots of fun, it will be interesting to see what you are able to do w/ it. the power supply adds another piece to the puzzle as well, the red LED acts as a feedback loop - the transistor could still be switching? or have you scoped it to be sure it is not? interesting vid. sure is making people think :-) thanks...

Patrick

[penno64]

Hey Slider,

Could it be possible that you have inadvertently created a magnacoaster ?

What do the rest of you guys think ?

Penno

[Zooty]

Romero's Source

This is a post by RomeroUK on the OU forums.


Notice where he talks about doing this solid state and then saying "short the coil multiple times at every peak of the wave"

As soon as i saw this, i had deja vu! I found part of the source of this info and it was not that long ago that i posted a link to it. I even started a thread on this forum called "Coil shorting techniques" The article below does not mention the multiple shorting but the author does mention it in another article that i cannot find right now. Still, i recommend reading it.

Look at this article https://sites.google.com/site/altern...coils-circuits

[ewizard]

I will build this new coil design.

I think i understand the wiring see how i go

good work .

if you have a better schematic that will be helpful.

I'm fairly sure I understand it now. Easy enough if you have seven strands ohm them out so you know which ones are which on each end. Label them 1 through 7 or some way keep track of them. 1 through 4 on one end get soldered to 5 through 7 on the other end. 5 through 7 on first end go to rest of circuit and 1 through 4 on other end got the circuit. Like this funkadelic drawing by my 4 year old (yeah right )