Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[elias]

Here's an on-line calculator which displays the pull and repulsion forces between two disc magnets

This is mis-leading. In repulsion mode, the field is dispersed over a greater area. When two magnets are touching each other in repel mode, then a large radial field is created, thus some of the field's strength and force isn't concentrated between the magnets, but is concentrated elsewhere. If the field in repel mode could be totally confined and concentrated between the magnets, as is the case in attraction mode, then the attraction and repulsive forces between the magnets would be nearly equal. Either way, there's an equal net force present.

GB

You are quite right about that, but I hope not! I am glad someone elaborated on my hypothesis.

I think that attraction is the reflection of unification in existence, there is more tendency in the universe to attract than to repel, so I might be correct at another level. I pray that there be a bug in all of these formulas, which is derived from assumptions about the magnetic field.

Also I need to say that when you say that it is concentrated elsewhere, there comes a question: What did make it concentrate elsewhere in the first place? There comes an answer: The magnetic field itself, the magnetic field can make itself scatter, thus [hopefully] decreasing also the net force, because I assume that it will always change the concentration of the magnetic field as the magnets and coils move aside each other in real time.

[Muon]

Has anyone heard of Rod Clark -- or know where he is now, or have any of his notes which he had for sale? He claimed a Muller-type device, self-running back in 2008!

[minoly]

Here's an on-line calculator which displays the pull and repulsion forces between two disc magnets

This is mis-leading. In repulsion mode, the field is dispersed over a greater area. When two magnets are touching each other in repel mode, then a large radial field is created, thus some of the field's strength and force isn't concentrated between the magnets, but is concentrated elsewhere. If the field in repel mode could be totally confined and concentrated between the magnets, as is the case in attraction mode, then the attraction and repulsive forces between the magnets would be nearly equal. Either way, there's an equal net force present.

GB

[redrichie]

Awesome ROD.
Almost there now. What is the diameter and material of your bobbins?
I have NEARLY finished gathering all materials for this build. Sure is a lot of stuff for such a small little motor. I feel your pain on the coils. Literally. I am using sewing machine bobbins and have 10 of them wound.
ONLY. EIGHT. MORE. TO. GO.
Over at OU Scratchrobos motor self destructed. Admittedly his rotor had a wobble. Does anyone see a problem with using .75in MDF board. Especially if I cut the rotor larger than needed and place the magnets farther from the edge. I see a little more stored energy in flywheel, but also safe since my magnets (which arrived yesterday) wont be as close to the edge of the rotor. If need be I could use that fiberglass packing taper like we used in Bedinis to stop magnets from ejecting.

[gravityblock]

As I showed earlier, attraction in magnetic fields is much stronger than repulsion.

Here's an on-line calculator which displays the pull and repulsion forces between two disc magnets

This is mis-leading. In repulsion mode, the field is dispersed over a greater area. When two magnets are touching each other in repel mode, then a large radial field is created, thus some of the field's strength and force isn't concentrated between the magnets, but is concentrated elsewhere. If the field in repel mode could be totally confined and concentrated between the magnets, as is the case in attraction mode, then the attraction and repulsive forces between the magnets would be nearly equal. Either way, there's an equal net force present.

GB

[toranarod]

Good work everyone, I congratulate you Rod.

@Ren, it "might" not work that way, acting only as a generator, but not sure.

As I showed earlier, attraction in magnetic fields is much stronger than
repulsion. So if you have got 9 poles for example and 8 magnets on the rotor,
when you pulse one pole, there are 7 magnets attracting the other cores to
make the rotor go forward and you have only used one repulsive power to
release one of the magnets, ok? You are actually getting 7 free attractive
power.

Now the generating phase happens only when the magnet is approaching the
coil, No? which causes a Lenz type repulsion, which I showed that repulsion
is much much lower than attraction, and is completely compensated. This
generator only generates, when the magnet is attracted to the core, so that
a repulsive drag will be created by Lenz.

So for one repulsive power input, your get 7 attractive power input, and 7
repulsive drag, which the repulsive drag will get less when your rotor is
rotating in high speed:

input = 1 repulsion (not free) + 7 attraction (free) > drag = 7 repulsion, so
the generator works with high torque and speed while generating! Of course
Romero has used a different approach and has used magnets on the cores to
increase the effect. I am not sure about his design, maybe someone would
explain that.

So that is where the real benefit of odd/even design comes, eliminating the
cogging of the strong attractive power, while using attractive power to drive
the rotor forward!

Good Luck!
Elias

I like the explanation you put forward. if some of these ideas are correct we are going to expose OU once and for all. Good one elias.

thanks for the support Ash and Ren

I had a coffee today with a fellow researcher Hello Brian.
hoping to get another replication up and going very soon.





here is another photo

[toranarod]

Ive just finished my rotor, its different specs to the Romero one, Im going to use a SG to spin it, just going to concentrate on the generator side of things at first.

Ive had to put a fully blown replication on hold for a month or so, my machinist is just getting too busy to help so Ive decided to just get my own lathe. Then there are no restrictions for me, I can machine to my hearts delight Will be able to help you out in the future too Rod, once I get some basic skills up on it. The one I want will turn up to 400mm diameter and 400mm long. Mill combo as well.

Cheers

Wow that would be fantastic.
good luck with our work.

keep us informed

Rod

[Lidmotor]

generator output power

@Lidmotor

You can get a higher output voltage if you add the rectifier outputs in series instead of parallel.

Thanks. I have tried that and I understand how it works. The problem is that you sacrifice amperage. In this weird magnet to coil ratio dynamic the voltage actually goes up slightly as you add coil pairs in parallel. I have three more sets to add to the stator to fill it up. I will see what happens then. Like everybody else has discovered, the winding of these coils is tedious work. When I get my Litz wire, if that makes a better coil, then I will have do the coils all over again. Not looking forward to that.

Lidmotor

[gravityblock]

Could be worse, just as well there not 18 torriods with 300t :P.

For future reference, here's a video showing a quick and dirty technique in winding toroids with many turns, by hand.

GB

[xee2]

@Lidmotor

You can get a higher output voltage if you add the rectifier outputs in series instead of parallel.

[elias]

Ive just finished my rotor, its different specs to the Romero one, Im going to use a SG to spin it, just going to concentrate on the generator side of things at first.

Cheers

Good work everyone, I congratulate you Rod.

@Ren, it "might" not work that way, acting only as a generator, but not sure.

As I showed earlier, attraction in magnetic fields is much stronger than
repulsion. So if you have got 9 poles for example and 8 magnets on the rotor,
when you pulse one pole, there are 7 magnets attracting the other cores to
make the rotor go forward and you have only used one repulsive power to
release one of the magnets, ok? You are actually getting 7 free attractive
power.

Now the generating phase happens only when the magnet is approaching the
coil, No? which causes a Lenz type repulsion, which I showed that repulsion
is much much lower than attraction, and is completely compensated. This
generator only generates, when the magnet is attracted to the core, so that
a repulsive drag will be created by Lenz.

So for one repulsive power input, your get 7 attractive power input, and 7
repulsive drag, which the repulsive drag will get less when your rotor is
rotating in high speed:

input = 1 repulsion (not free) + 7 attraction (free) > drag = 7 repulsion, so
the generator works with high torque and speed while generating! Of course
Romero has used a different approach and has used magnets on the cores to
increase the effect. I am not sure about his design, maybe someone would
explain that.

So that is where the real benefit of odd/even design comes, eliminating the
cogging of the strong attractive power, while using attractive power to drive
the rotor forward!

Good Luck!
Elias

[electr0n]

[QUOTE=toranarod;141765]the longest job of all has been winding the coils
repeated work i find tedious.

Could be worse, just as well there not 18 torriods with 300t :P.
im on number 15, using .4mm 250t untill litz arrives

[Joit]

Reading over there at OU.com, that Dave did damage his Coils, i think i is maybe a good Idea to put another thin Disc on each Side between Rotor and Coil, in case, that the Rotor does make some unexpecting Things, then the Coils are better protected.

[Lidmotor]

Joule Thief Muller Dynamo

@All
I am waiting on Litz wire so I am still "exploring" the Muller on my testing unit. I tried out a plain old Joule Thief circuit today and got the darn thing to run on that. It only runs on very very low power (at least mine did) but it was an interesting alternative to the Hall sensor circuit. I agree with Ren and some of the other people that the actual turning of the "dynamo" can be done other ways and we might see similar results.
Here is my little Muller running on about half a volt and 2 milliamps.

YouTube - ‪Joule Thief Muller Dynamo.ASF‬‏

(please note that the circuit diagram I show in this video is drawn wrong. The power comes into the centertap position of the drive coil pair and the base resistor connects to the start of one coil. It is a standard JT circuit.)

Lidmotor

[ashtweth]

Exceptional and fast guys as usual . I would rather wind a boring coil my friends, we had to do the Bob Boyce coil TWICE (that was hard not boring lol). I still got beez wax in the kitchen and every where

Thanks Ren/Rod. Ren i still got that here when we are in Sydney in December let me know if you need to play with it.

Ash