Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[elias]

In a normal setup, if the coil is shorted continuously, there is a repulsion as the magnet approaches the coil and an attraction as the magnet leaves the coil. Using a timed short at TDC for 2ms there should not be much drag at all because the magnet is not in the repulsion or attraction area. Try the experiment by shorting just before or just after the peak of the sine wave. As well as not getting as much power back, there will be some noticeable drag. TDC is like the zero stationary point. Wish i could explain it better.

TDC has zero voltage too, so you cannot get much out in TDC, But, ... I think that if we collect the energy before TDC and in repulsion mode we would drag the rotor much less. Also as the speed increases the time lag of the current in the coil would make the repulsion work not so much against us.

[Zooty]

Great information. I guess I was thinking that the the quick short of the generator coil at the peak of the sinewave was being shorted directly across the drive coil.
Kind of a two for one thing, where a quick direct properly timed pulse was being sent to the drive coil to give it a little kick and at the same time help cancel out the Lenz effect in the generator coil.
Not a lot of "short", but just enough spike at the top of the sinewave to disrupt some of the Lenz effect and give that part of the disruption to the drive coil.
Kind of like an internal combustion engine, where timing of the spark is everything, a little off and it don't work at all.

But, I see how it works now.

Thanks

In a normal setup, if the coil is shorted continuously, there is a repulsion as the magnet approaches the coil and an attraction as the magnet leaves the coil. Using a timed short at TDC for 2ms there should not be much drag at all because the magnet is not in the repulsion or attraction area. Try the experiment by shorting just before or just after the peak of the sine wave. As well as not getting as much power back, there will be some noticeable drag. TDC is like the zero stationary point. Wish i could explain it better.

[Steve220]

I see

Great information. I guess I was thinking that the the quick short of the generator coil at the peak of the sinewave was being shorted directly across the drive coil.
Kind of a two for one thing, where a quick direct properly timed pulse was being sent to the drive coil to give it a little kick and at the same time help cancel out the Lenz effect in the generator coil.
Not a lot of "short", but just enough spike at the top of the sinewave to disrupt some of the Lenz effect and give that part of the disruption to the drive coil.
Kind of like an internal combustion engine, where timing of the spark is everything, a little off and it don't work at all.

But, I see how it works now.

Thanks

[Zooty]

Ash,
what result did he get, all I saw him do was spin it up. did I miss something?
Zero sure is thorough w/ his build so far.

Redrichie made a nice find, shorting coils w/ an AC cap right on the pickup coil

Patrick

[minoly]

Hi Rod /ALL

This guy apparently got a result on one coil
YouTube - ‪#282 Muller Motor test run‬‏

Ash

Ash,
what result did he get, all I saw him do was spin it up. did I miss something?
Zero sure is thorough w/ his build so far.

Redrichie made a nice find, shorting coils w/ an AC cap right on the pickup coil

Patrick

[Steve220]

Just a question

Let me see if I am understanding what is going on.

By correctly timing a quick direct short across the generator coil, the Lenz effect is derailed long enough so that the Lenz effect can not recover in time before the magnet has passed the generator coil.
Causing sort of a one way magnetic check valve situation at the generator coil.

The Lenz effect current from the generator coil during the quick, properly timed short, is fed as a pulse to the drive motor coil.
This way the rotor does not slow down when a load is connected to the generator coils.

The quick, correctly timed shorting out of the generator coil(s), is fed back to the drive motor coil(s), causing a over all gain in the power output of the generator.

Please correct me if I seemed confused here.

Thanks Steve 220

[ashtweth]

Hi Rod /ALL

This guy apparently got a result on one coil
YouTube - ‪#282 Muller Motor test run‬‏

Ash

[minoly]

That's not my scope shot
the video is mine. I have not scoped it I am still tuning. scoping will be one of the last tools I use. don't want to take the chance of boxing myself in. scope did that to me on the window motor.

Patrick

PS - Romero said this is the start, then think of easier ways to do it. (paraphrase - not going to bother to look it up)

[minoly]

Just to be clear, the first waveform is from your two coils, but just to confirm that those two coils are not placed such as the Romero device and you are only rotating the north field of the magnets across them.

I just wanted to emphasize this because some will otherwise say that waveform is indicative of the Romero device, which it is not.

Thank you for sharing.

wattsup

That's not my scope shot
the video is mine. I have not scoped it I am still tuning. scoping will be one of the last tools I use. don't want to take the chance of boxing myself in. scope did that to me on the window motor.

Patrick

[nueview]

Whaooo !

Penno

thanks for answering, i will do a rig to test

I can't wait to your result with the MOT and the giant biasing magnets inside

very cool

bravo

Laurent

Woopy
you asked what exactly i was doing with my motor?
i saw someone post a video and the motor was of a type that i was wanting to make it is three phase and has permanent magnets for the rotor and having done allot of work on induction motors running with resonant fields i needed a desk top model and it fit the bill. it is high rpm low power and when driven in resonance should give me double the voltage output and enough amps to exceed the input it is my own project and requires me to learn new things and i have learned allot.
and you tought me something more that i was seeing in front of me it just wasn't going through my thick head.i do not claim to understand what or why it does what i saw just noted it did it when i got the right setup.
i take short cuts figuring these things out so folks here would not like my method or math i am sure of that but it works for me.
so i need to go back to studing op-amps but i still think about what you guys do and learn along the way and will help if i can.
Martin

[wattsup]

I'm glad other people are finding it also. this is much talked about but I haven't seen or read of many doing the experiment. It's nice to see the wave. thanks for posting that.

YouTube - ‪Romero Muller and Bolt's coil short speeds up under load‬‏
in the video I made of this, I only show shorting the coil outright. the rotor speeds up with an inductive load (light bulb) as well.
here are the items we've been adjusting so far that give results.

capacitor
bias magnets on coil
coil core - ferrite welding rods nails etc...
distance of coil to core. edit -> not coil to core - coil to rotor :-)
diodes on the FWBR

with each adjustment we are getting closer to regaining the full speed of the rotor.

Patrick

Just to be clear, the first waveform is from your two coils, but just to confirm that those two coils are not placed such as the Romero device and you are only rotating the north field of the magnets across them.

I just wanted to emphasize this because some will otherwise say that waveform is indicative of the Romero device, which it is not.

Thank you for sharing.

wattsup

[Joit]

[chrisC]

this is only 1 drive coil pair.
l need to show a circuit diagrams to help me understand this.
its wave forms and circuits i have never contemplated building before.

I shorted the coils and added the tuned capacitor to the output and was able to get output current to 600 m Amps the voltage was so high it heated up the capacitor and destroyed it. the capacitor was rated at 160 volts non polarized.

there is so much to test.

The drive current was 100 m amps.

Is this OU? don't know as Power calculations are not available yet. I need to collect much more data to established an RMS voltage.

Great stuff Rod. 600mA? That's one coil; I presume when you double it for 2 generator coils you'll get to where Romero had on his Ammeter reading (first video) with just the rotor running, before he loaded the lamp. I presume that he was already demonstrating O.U (2 to 1 ratio) and the rest is easy!
Question then is Romero was using about the same number of components to timely short the coils, maybe with small reed switches or simple transistor that can handle flyback voltages. Exciting times ahead. Thank you all for your contributions.

cheers
chrisC

[toranarod]

this is only 1 drive coil pair.
l need to show a circuit diagrams to help me understand this.
its wave forms and circuits i have never contemplated building before.

I shorted the coils and added the tuned capacitor to the output and was able to get output current to 600 m Amps the voltage was so high it heated up the capacitor and destroyed it. the capacitor was rated at 160 volts non polarized.

there is so much to test.

The drive current was 100 m amps.

Is this OU? don't know as Power calculations are not available yet. I need to collect much more data to established an RMS voltage.

Hi Rod,

thanks for the good news and congratulations!

In the meantime a member at ou com posted his 3D simulation findings and it sounds in accord with RomeroUK hints on the need for precise fine tuning, a narrow optimal RPM window for the rotor and also limits on the amount of the useful loads.
Here is his post if you have not read it:
Muller Dynamo

Thanks, Gyula

Thanks for some advertising Gyula
I started a fresh thread on 3D simulations of the RomeroUK rig at OU here:
Virtual replication of RomeroUK motor/generator by 3D FEM modeling

(sorry, I use a different user name here )