Electric Motor Secrets

[lighty]

@Jetijs

Cloth tape is simply not enough to prevent some small splinter on the stator to penetrate it and compromise winding insulation. I find that hard way when I wound coils on Mu-metal cores that were water cut. There was always some not so visible splinter that would compromise coil insulation. It was a rather frustrating experience You could always use your finger to find those splinters (like I did) but I must warn you that it's a painful task.

Also, why don't you use a sand paper to smooth the edges of stator poles? It's one of the first things to do when you get anything that was water, laser or plasma cut.

You could also apply a thin layer of epoxy resin that would provide you a smooth surface to wind on. But apply as thin layer as possible in order to minimize magnetic losses. That's also one of the solutions I use.

BTW - if you don't want to use mylar you can also use glass fiber tape that's also used in the winding shops (although I prefer mylar for a number of reasons) and it will provide excellent mechanical and electrical protection although at a cost of a slightly thicker layer than in the case of mylar.

Anyway- good work Jetijs!

[Peter Lindemann]

Cloth Tape vs Mylar

Lighty,
I like the idea of prewounded coils. If I started design this motor only now, I would take your idea into account.
I got the magnet wire today, it is 1.32mm thick and that is about AWG 16. First I insulated the poles with a cloth tape. I calculated that in order to wind 30 turns of wire in bifilar mode, I will need about 7meters of wire. But only now I really realize how hard it must have been for Steven to wind his stator coils. It is very hard to wind such thick wires in bifilar mode, I wish this wire was a lot softer. When I finished winding one pole, I checked the resistance of the windings, but I found out that there is a short to the stator somewhere. Obviously I have scraped the insulation off some part of wire in the winding process, also the cloth tape insulation was faulty somewhere. So I took off the winding and taped all over the sharp edges everywhere where I could accidentally scrape the wire insulation in the winding process. Then I wound a test coil with 30 turns of only one wire. This was a lot easier, but never the less There was still a short to the core somewhere. I can't understand why. I will need to make the core insulation thicker and more careful.
Here is a picture of the insulated poles before first bifilar winding:



And here is the core with all the sharp edges insulated but still a short between the coil and core:



I remind you that this is only a test winding to see how hard it will be.
In the picture you can see that there is enough space for another 30 windings for the recovery coil, but winding both wires at once is so hard, so does it make a difference if I wind the power coil first and then the recovery coil on top of the power coil? Maybe I can use a lighter gauge wire for the recovery coil as lighty suggested? This would make the whole process so much easier. Or maybe I should stay with only one coil on each pole for the first tests and use the same winding also for recovery. Of course this wont allow me to feed the output directly back on the input via a capacitor.
Peter, what do you think?

Thank you.

Jetijs,

Seems like your cloth tape does not offer enough structural integrity to prevent the sharp edge of the stator from penetrating the wire insulation when you wind the coils that tight. This is why Lighty suggested the Mylar sheet over the square edges.

I've wound a lot of my stators more than once, so any of the ideas you are suggesting is a worthy experiment. I sometimes find if I mount the stator in a vise, and ask a friend to tension the wire feed, then I have both hands available to wind and position the two wires on each turn. Its a tedious operation, so just go slow and you can do it.

Any other suggestions from other builders are welcome.

Peter

[Jetijs]

Lighty,
I like the idea of prewounded coils. If I started design this motor only now, I would take your idea into account.
I got the magnet wire today, it is 1.32mm thick and that is about AWG 16. First I insulated the poles with a cloth tape. I calculated that in order to wind 30 turns of wire in bifilar mode, I will need about 7meters of wire. But only now I really realize how hard it must have been for Steven to wind his stator coils. It is very hard to wind such thick wires in bifilar mode, I wish this wire was a lot softer. When I finished winding one pole, I checked the resistance of the windings, but I found out that there is a short to the stator somewhere. Obviously I have scraped the insulation off some part of wire in the winding process, also the cloth tape insulation was faulty somewhere. So I took off the winding and taped all over the sharp edges everywhere where I could accidentally scrape the wire insulation in the winding process. Then I wound a test coil with 30 turns of only one wire. This was a lot easier, but never the less There was still a short to the core somewhere. I can't understand why. I will need to make the core insulation thicker and more careful.
Here is a picture of the insulated poles before first bifilar winding:



And here is the core with all the sharp edges insulated but still a short between the coil and core:



I remind you that this is only a test winding to see how hard it will be.
In the picture you can see that there is enough space for another 30 windings for the recovery coil, but winding both wires at once is so hard, so does it make a difference if I wind the power coil first and then the recovery coil on top of the power coil? Maybe I can use a lighter gauge wire for the recovery coil as lighty suggested? This would make the whole process so much easier. Or maybe I should stay with only one coil on each pole for the first tests and use the same winding also for recovery. Of course this wont allow me to feed the output directly back on the input via a capacitor.
Peter, what do you think?

Thank you.

[lighty]

The end part of each pole is wider, so I would not be able to get the coil on the pole and If i fill the thinner part of the pole so that the whole pole is as thick as the thickest part, I would lose much space. I will better wind all the coils by hand, after all there will be only 30 turns on each coil, that should not be too hard

Ah, I didn't know that fact. Although in the future you should consider using straight lines poles in order to speed up and simplify testing of various coils. I don't see any harm in doing that and to be honest I don't see any advantages in having poles widen at the "working end". Look at the stator of the exact replica of Tesla's 2-phase induction motor. Of course it's just an idea but in my experience it's MUCH easier and faster to work and experiment with preformed coils.



Anyway- don't forget to put mylar between coil and steel in order to avoid damaging the insulations (mylar is very cheap, mechanically resilient and very thin so you won't get any noticeable magnetic loses due to it's thickness). You can get mylar at any motor winding shop.

BTW- good work!

[Jetijs]

Lighty, I doubt that prewinding the coil is possible with my design:

The end part of each pole is wider, so I would not be able to get the coil on the pole and If i fill the thinner part of the pole so that the whole pole is as thick as the thickest part, I would lose much space. I will better wind all the coils by hand, after all there will be only 30 turns on each coil, that should not be too hard

[lighty]

Please consider winding your motor with about 30 turns of bifilar #16 on each pole. Then, wire each two pole set together in series. This will give you two coils that have 60 turns of #16 wire that will turn ON and OFF in sequence.

Perhaps Lighty can make a recommendation, here.

Peter

That's perfectly fine solution in this way he can divide resistance by exactly three times as well as impedance thus allowing for faster current rise. Since we don't know the motor RPM, torque and core saturation it would be best if Jetijs would try the motor and recovery with both wire diametersettings. In that way one would have at least two referent measurement in order to determine some basic values of the particular motor. On the other hand it's a tedious job of winding those coils because he don't use any preformed spools and I concur that he should go with your recommendation.

The only thing that could represent a possible problem is the recovered energy of the inductive collapse- if the number of turns is insufficient to reach desired voltage than he could easily wind recovery coil with greater number of turns of smaller gauge wire. For example in order to keep some round number ratio of wire weight and surface area of the wire section he could use AWG16 as power coil as you suggested and if needed he could wind about double number of turns over the power coil using AWG19 (since we're looking at the wire cross section surface area, resistance per kilometer and mass of the wire rather than wire diameter which is not so relevant in this case). In that way he would end up with double recovered voltage while maintaining same total weight and total cross section ratio of both coils at 1:1. That's of course if he needs that in the first place.

Jetijs, why don't you use some preformer to wind coils? You could machine a plastic former with same dimensions as your pole on the motor over which you could put some mylar with epoxy separator. In that way you can wind your coils by hand or using some hand winder (all the time using epoxy to keep the coil from falling apart. When you're finished you simply slip coil from plastic former (with mylar sheet as a part of coil). You wound end up with the coil that would be much easier and faster to wind, that would fit perfectly to your motor poles (with minimum airgap) and mylar sheet would serve as a protection when you manipulate coil on the sharp motor pole edges. At least that's how I made my coils for the working reproduction of Tesla 2-phase induction motor that has pretty much the same pole geometry as your motor.

If you want PM me and I'll send you some photographs.

[Jetijs]

Peter,
I considered using AWG21 wire just because I had it laying around. I will visit the motor rewinding company on Monday and buy some wire with thickness as close to gauge 16 as I can get.
Thanks,
Jetijs

[Peter Lindemann]

Wrong Wire

Hi all
I measured the airgap between the stator and rotor today. The whole airgap is 0.16mm wide, that is 0.08mm for each side. I think that this is very good and should work really well. I calculated that I should be able to wind about 200 bifilar turns of gauge 21 wire on each pole. I will do this soon. I hope I will have enough wire
Thank you,
Jetijs.

Jetijs,

The air-gap info is awesome. However, your choice for wire is not. The resistance and inductance of 200 turns of #21 wire will be too high. This will require running higher voltages and will dramatically reduce the top speed of the motor. The current rise-time for coils like this will be too slow. As the motor speeds up, the commutator will be turning the coils OFF long before they allow their maximum current flow. You need coils with a much faster current rise-time.

Please consider winding your motor with about 30 turns of bifilar #16 on each pole. Then, wire each two pole set together in series. This will give you two coils that have 60 turns of #16 wire that will turn ON and OFF in sequence.

Perhaps Lighty can make a recommendation, here.

Peter

[Jetijs]

Hi all
I measured the airgap between the stator and rotor today. The whole airgap is 0.16mm wide, that is 0.08mm for each side. I think that this is very good and should work really well. I calculated that I should be able to wind about 200 bifilar turns of gauge 21 wire on each pole. I will do this soon. I hope I will have enough wire
Thank you,
Jetijs.

[Jetijs]

Thank you Peter
I did some machining today and assembled the whole thing just for fun. Seems like this design works well and is easy to adjust. I can't tell how wide the air gap is for now, because I do not have the the right equipment, but I will measure that tomorrow. Here is a small video
YouTube - Lindemann attraction motor V2.0
Thank you,
Jetijs

[Peter Lindemann]

Dreams

Jetijs,

Absolutely beautiful pictures. I wish I could be there when your motor is tested. You are fulfilling a dream I have had for 25 years.

Peter

[Jetijs]

Hello everyone.
I got my rotor and shaft today. It is machined so that the gap should be only 0.05mm on each side. In reality everything is not so beautiful, but I will spare the technical details for you, I will just tell, that the stator core needs to be slightly remachined. The gap after this should be 0.1mm on each side. I also made the aluminum bearing holder end plates. So finally I can continue working on my project number one
And pictures (as usual):







BTW, Peter, I just loved your last post
Thanks,
Jetijs

[Peter Lindemann]

In Your Mind

Peter,


When do we see the light at the end of the tunnel go on?


-gmeatdaddy

Dear gmeat,

This is really OFF TOPIC for this thread. If you wish to discuss this further, let's do it in a new thread.

The "light at the end of the tunnel" is in your MIND. The war is on, but most people do not see where the REAL battlefield is, yet. As long as an individual is still "fighting within himself", he can be manipulated to fight with others. This is the ONLY thing that keeps UNIVERSAL PEACE from breaking out all over the world.

FE technology could produce ABUNDANCE of physical necessities, but the people who want to "control others" instead of themselves, want the opposite set of conditions to prevail. When everyone is bickering and squabbling amongst themselves, the REAL warmongers are harder to point out! The only way to isolate these people and strip them of social influence is to DECIDE within yourself that you will not fight anymore, for any reason, no matter what!

This process IS underway, and will overtake all other trends within 20 years. Between now and then, it's going to get messy!

After Universal Peace is established, FE technology will be adopted quickly for the benefit of all people on earth.

Peter

[elias]

Elias,

You have asked the right question!

But this question touches on a number of issues I am not prepared to discuss in this forum at this time. These involve advanced engineering considerations that relate to just how much electrical energy CAN BE recovered in a situation like this, why, and under what circumstances. I have not discussed this in relation to Radiant Energy, to keep it simple, but obviously the character of the energy in the inductive collapse is not your college professor's electricity! You have already seen how difficult it is to quantify with meters. So there are similarities. But there are also some differences.

At this point, I am not willing to discuss this situation any further. Sorry. I hope you understand.

Peter

Thanks,
I do understand ... I like your approach in this project. Perhaps more experimentation is needed.
Elias

[cdsalmons]

Peter,
I will start a new thread, but I was mentioning my progect here because I am wanting to base my modified motor on your design. Thanks, Dustin