Electric Motor Secrets

[Peter Lindemann]

Start New Thread

Hi everyone,
I have been reading the board for a while now, but was unable to post. Aaron fixed it for me. Anyway, here is my question:

I have been interested in building/converting an electric car for several years now. I have been designing a system that consists of a 100hp DC motor, 255Ahr 2volt batteries, and some ultracapacitors.

Can you help me convert such a large system? My aim is not OU, but high efficency. With my current design, I can range 120-180 miles per charge, which is gret as far as EV's go. But if that could be doubled or better, you can immagine the possibilities. Thank you for any response, Dustin

Dustin,

Sounds like a great project. This thread is STRICTLY for discussion of advanced electric motor designs. Please delete your message, and start a new thread.

Thanks,

Peter

[cdsalmons]

My first post

Hi everyone,
I have started a new thread for Electric Cars @ HERE

[Peter Lindemann]

Other Issues

Peter,

Thank you very much for reminding this absolute fact, because I have done this before to my earlier SSG motors, It maybe because I am so in a hurry to build a free energy device without sufficient patience. I would not change anything and solder the parts and make this a complete working model.

Just another question, (sorry to take your time) but this is a question related to radiant charging. This has only been a confusion to me, why Peter Lindemann, which I have known Radiant energy first by him, does not mention the flow of Radiant Energy in his motor?
If I condition the batteries, with the output of this system (around 50% conventional + Radiant Energy) would this system be able to run one to one or even more like Bedini's chargers? Is something extra being produced in Bedini's monopole charger which is not being produced in these systems? I understand that you want to make all conventional thinkers start thinking when they see this dc-to-dc converter which is also a powerful motor, but Radiant energy must be present in this system at a pretty high level too. Bedini's machines never output more than 30-40% conventional output (not a very efficient dc-dc converter), but they certainly do charge batteries faster. This system seems to have that capability too, but there has been no mentioning of this here. Just I want to ask you to clarify this a bit.


Elias

Elias,

You have asked the right question!

But this question touches on a number of issues I am not prepared to discuss in this forum at this time. These involve advanced engineering considerations that relate to just how much electrical energy CAN BE recovered in a situation like this, why, and under what circumstances. I have not discussed this in relation to Radiant Energy, to keep it simple, but obviously the character of the energy in the inductive collapse is not your college professor's electricity! You have already seen how difficult it is to quantify with meters. So there are similarities. But there are also some differences.

At this point, I am not willing to discuss this situation any further. Sorry. I hope you understand.

Peter

[elias]

Elias,

If you wish to try it, I recommend that you build a second motor to do it with, so you can preserve the working model you have now, and compare the behavior of the two side-by-side.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you very much for reminding this absolute fact, because I have done this before to my earlier SSG motors, It maybe because I am so in a hurry to build a free energy device without sufficient patience. I would not change anything and solder the parts and make this a complete working model.

Just another question, (sorry to take your time) but this is a question related to radiant charging. This has only been a confusion to me, why Peter Lindemann, which I have known Radiant energy first by him, does not mention the flow of Radiant Energy in his motor?
If I condition the batteries, with the output of this system (around 50% conventional + Radiant Energy) would this system be able to run one to one or even more like Bedini's chargers? Is something extra being produced in Bedini's monopole charger which is not being produced in these systems? I understand that you want to make all conventional thinkers start thinking when they see this dc-to-dc converter which is also a powerful motor, but Radiant energy must be present in this system at a pretty high level too. Bedini's machines never output more than 30-40% conventional output (not a very efficient dc-dc converter), but they certainly do charge batteries faster. This system seems to have that capability too, but there has been no mentioning of this here. Just I want to ask you to clarify this a bit.


Elias

[Peter Lindemann]

Filling the Gaps

Thanks Alain,

Lets see if Peter recommend me to do this. But it seems that if I weld the gaps between my rotor segments, the amount of iron being attracted would increase thus increasing the motor torque. Currently it has a lot power at around 3000 RPM.

I wonder if I use a 30:1 gearbox, to convert the speed of it to more torque power, it may be able to drive a bicycle for me.

My motor is using around 28W at 6000, and 51W, while loaded at 3000 RPM. I can't hold it down to 3000 RPM more than a few seconds, by gripping my hand tightly to the shaft. It also recovers more under load.

Elias

Elias,

Sorry I didn't address this before. I have not tried to do this in my test motor because I knew any material I used to fill the gaps would not behave as well magnetically as the laminations. Having the slots in the face of the rotor is not ideal, obviously, but having another magnetic material that retained some of its magnetism in those slots would be worse.

If you wish to try it, I recommend that you build a second motor to do it with, so you can preserve the working model you have now, and compare the behavior of the two side-by-side.

Every experimenter who has made any progress has a "museum" of working models. Each model represents a step in the learning process. The person with the biggest "museum" has learned the most. That person is John Bedini, with over 100 working models of various motors and circuits, dating back 35 years.

The lesson is clear. NEVER scavenge parts from your current working model to run the next test. It seems like a good idea at the time because it saves time and money. But what actually happens is, you keep changing the working model until you finally try something that DOES NOT WORK, and then you stop. At that point you have NOTHING to show for all your time, effort and expense! In the midst of this disappointment, going back to build something that you know is obsolete takes tremendous discipline, and rarely happens.

My recommendation is for you to finish this model "as is". Mount the hall device so the motor runs in a stable configuration and permanently mount everything to a base board. Then, you can use this model as a "baseline" for all future models to work better than. In 10 years, you will be able to bring this model down off a shelf, and show younger students where you started, because this model will still work! Its a great first step.

Thanks for posting your schematic and the video of your tests. Excellent work!!!!!

Peter

[elias]

Increasing Motor Torque

GREAT WORK!!!!
It's nice to SEE the evolution of you're work.
Do you plan to welded the gap of you're rotor still???
Happy you have share it with us!!!

peper10

Thanks Alain,

Lets see if Peter recommend me to do this. But it seems that if I weld the gaps between my rotor segments, the amount of iron being attracted would increase thus increasing the motor torque. Currently it has a lot power at around 3000 RPM.

I wonder if I use a 30:1 gearbox, to convert the speed of it to more torque power, it may be able to drive a bicycle for me.

My motor is using around 28W at 6000, and 51W, while loaded at 3000 RPM. I can't hold it down to 3000 RPM more than a few seconds, by gripping my hand tightly to the shaft. It also recovers more under load.

Elias

[elias]

The Schematic

Hello everyone,

Here is the schematic I am currently using for my motor.
When the hall device gets activated it turns Q1 on and makes MJ15022 activate the coil. When the hall device turns off, Q2 turns off, and Q1 turns on, which makes MJ15012 turn off quickly, by discharging the base capacitance of it.

EDIT:
A resistor (about 1k-5k) must be placed, between the Zener diode and the hall effect sensor output, which I forgot to add.

Elias

[elias]

A Video

Hi,

Here is a short video,which shows the motor running with recovering energy to a 60W light bulb.

YouTube - Lindemann attraction motor test

Elias

[Peter Lindemann]

70% looks Good

Peter,

My scope shots show that at least 70% of the energy is being recovered, what do you think? The attached scope shot, has voltage divisions of 50 volts, and 1ms time scale. It shows the signal at the collector of my transistor. The negative pulse is the power pulse, and the positive pulse is the recovered pulse, going to a capacitor + 60W lamp, through a diode. The frequency of the pulses is 206Hz which means: 60*206/2 = 6180 RPM.

I used a 555 to chop my motor pulse into smaller pulses, and it was not very good at all, because the motor almost lost its self-regulating function, which made it rather easy to stop. So I removed the 555 from my circuit, which made my motor drop down in performance. Although my motor draws more under load, but it also recovers more.

I wonder if there is an easy way to feed the recovered energy back into the driving capacitor.

I would share some videos, and the schematic tomorrow.

Elias

Elias,

Great scope shot. By the "area under the curve" method, it looks like you do have about 70% recovery. That's pretty good. The width of the output pulse is so close to the width of the input pulse, you are approaching an optimum speed. If it will go faster, see what the scope shot looks like at between 7000 and 7500 RPM. Somewhere in there, you should have maximum power AND maximum electrical return. This is the same speed range I calculated my motor would maximize its electrical recovery.

Your motor is probably OU already if your mechanical energy production is over 40%. Unfortunately, without a separate output winding, there is no way I know of to put the recovered energy back to the front of the circuit. It's one of the drawbacks of modifying an off-the-shelf motor.

Great work. Thanks for showing everybody that it is pretty easy to get this far with it!

Peter

[elias]

Scope Shots

Peter,

My scope shots show that at least 70% of the energy is being recovered, what do you think? The attached scope shot, has voltage divisions of 50 volts, and 1ms time scale. It shows the signal at the collector of my transistor. The negative pulse is the power pulse, and the positive pulse is the recovered pulse, going to a capacitor + 60W lamp, through a diode. The frequency of the pulses is 206Hz which means: 60*206/2 = 6180 RPM. The second shot shows the current changing in the coil (probe across a 1ohm resistor).

I used a 555 to chop my motor pulse into smaller pulses, and it was not very good at all, because the motor almost lost its self-regulating function, which made it rather easy to stop. So I removed the 555 from my circuit, which made my motor drop down in performance. Although my motor draws more under load, but it also recovers more.

I wonder if there is an easy way to feed the recovered energy back into the driving capacitor.

I would share some videos, and the schematic tomorrow.

Elias

[elias]

Peter,

I will post my schematic, after perfecting it ok?
Just wanted to ask why is maximizing conventional recovery so important? SSG never outputs more than 30-40% conventional energy, but it does output more when charging batteries. If we charge batteries with this system, we are way up unity, no?

Also, I think that I can increase the mechanical output of the motor, by welding the gaps of my rotor segments, and making them as one, do you recommend me doing this at a later time?

Thanks
Elias

[Peter Lindemann]

Excellent Work

Hi,

Thought to share new tests:
This time I used a 220V, 60W lamp parallel with a 33uF capacitor on the output.
Around 6000RPM:
In: 49V, 0.52A, Out: 58V, 0.11A recovery: 34%

Around 3000RPM (loaded)
In: 45V, 1.2A, Out: 100V, 0.17A recovery: 30%

Just to mention that the motor seems to have a lot torque to it, and it is impossible to stop it by holding the shaft.

While pulsing independently, the maximum efficiency was at 205Hz, with 50% duty cycle:
In: 44V, 1.27A = 55.8W
Out: 130V, 0.18A = 23.4W
Recovery = 42%

Next, I'll use a 555 to pulse the coil at 200Hz.
It seems that different size capacitors can capture different amount of energy. I'll find this out later.

Elias

Elias,

Great work. I know everyone here would love to see the schematic of your circuit, and how you are using the hall effect device to modulate the 555 timer. 42% recovery still seems a little low. My GUESS is that the aluminum frame has some big eddy currents in it that soak up the rest of the recoverable power. This was always a problem in the reluctance generators until we went to plastic frames. The aluminum end plates act like "shorted turns" of a second output circuit. If this is true, then 42% may be as high as you can get for this model.

If you can't stop the shaft, you may have some good torque. I measured (as close as I could) the mechanical energy output of my little motor at about 34% with an air-gap of .021". Your air-gap of .015" is 28% smaller than mine (envy) . Your torque production should be above 42% mechanical efficiency, if my guessing is close.

This is excellent, over all, for a simple demonstrator of the principles involved in the system.

Keep up the great work!

Peter

[elias]

More Tests

Hi,

Thought to share new tests:
This time I used a 220V, 60W lamp parallel with a 33uF capacitor on the output.
Around 6000RPM:
In: 49V, 0.52A, Out: 58V, 0.11A recovery: 34%

Around 3000RPM (loaded)
In: 45V, 1.2A, Out: 100V, 0.17A recovery: 30%

Just to mention that the motor seems to have a lot torque to it, and it is impossible to stop it by holding the shaft.

While pulsing independently, the maximum efficiency was at 205Hz, with 50% duty cycle:
In: 44V, 1.27A = 55.8W
Out: 130V, 0.18A = 23.4W
Recovery = 42%

Next, I'll use a 555 to pulse the coil at 200Hz.
It seems that different size capacitors can capture different amount of energy. I'll find this out later.

Elias

[elias]

Elias,

How did you measure this output of 6.7 volts @ 1.2 amps? What is the load?

Peter

Peter,

I have put a 6 volt battery at the charging end, and I was measuring the current into that battery, but I guess it is better to measure the pulse width by the scope, I would do some tests on the motor coil today with a function generator, and post the results.

I intend to connect the output of the hall device with a pull up resistor to the RESET pin of a 555 timer, and adjust the 555 chip to pulse the coil at the most efficient rate, so when the hall device comes on, the reset goes down and the timer sends pulses to the transistor base, to make the attraction cycle work, and when the hall device turns off the RESET pin pulls up and the timer would not send any pulses. First I am going to find the efficient pulsing rate with my function generator.

Regards
Elias

[Peter Lindemann]

Measuring the Output

Hi,

Thank you Peter, this means a lot to me.

I did some tests with higher voltage, here is the result:
Input: 42v, 550mA
Output: 6.7v, 1.2A
Running at around 7500 RPM

The recovered energy is more than 34% of the input used at 7500 RPM and the mechanical power is considerably strong at around 3000RPM (which draws about 1A), which is impossible to stop by holding the shaft.

But the input current increases when loading it to a lower speed. (due to the increase "on time" of the coil)

Some more test to be done tomorrow after I modify the circuit and try pulsing the coil with a function generator to find the optimum pulsing rate.

Elias

Elias,

How did you measure this output of 6.7 volts @ 1.2 amps? What is the load?

Peter