Open discussion for projects on this forum.

[genessc]

No worries Carroll. As you find time.

This trafo output charges up the same 4.7uF 450v cap to about 220v from a single 120v winding and hwbr into that cap. If both 120v windings are put in series then the same cap charges to about 520vdc. (a good 70vdc over its rating so I didn't leave that on for long.)

I was thinking it might be driven in such a way that the short on the 120v side can be kept shorted till a capacitor needs to fill, then unshort it for the length of time it takes to charge up the cap before shorting it again and then discharging the capacity that was charged into whatever load.

The idea being to get the thing up to RPM then up to the lowest draw by shorting the trafos secondary and only unshort it to charge up the capacity just prior to discharging it to load.

In theory then each time you want to charge a cap, the windings unshorted which forces the rpm to drop by ~1000rpm which is normally what happens when a motors loaded anyways, but during that drop in rpm it would be charging up a cap and once full it would reshort so that the draw would drop back down again on input.

Anyways just more thinking from my side of it. maybe its useful or not...

Take care,
Gene

Hello again Gene,

I got some time to watch the video. Thanks for taking the time to do that. This is turning into an interesting line of study. There are certainly some things in your video that don't agree with traditional theory of energy transfer through a transformer. It seems the mismatch in impedance must play some role in that like you said.

I did find that my son had a couple of pumps and motors similar to what you posted. I got them from him but they both are worn pretty badly. The part of the shaft that rides on the bearing surface is worn badly. The one still turns freely but the other is dragging against the stator. I had time to take the impeller off the better one and just spun it with a cordless drill and got about 7 volts ac from it just open circuit and my meter. It was only turning about a hundred rpm I guess. I didn't measure it.

I will be unable to do any more testing for the next three days and then will get things set up properly to do some testing with higher rpm and transformers etc.

Later,
Carroll

[citfta]

Hello again Gene,

I got some time to watch the video. Thanks for taking the time to do that. This is turning into an interesting line of study. There are certainly some things in your video that don't agree with traditional theory of energy transfer through a transformer. It seems the mismatch in impedance must play some role in that like you said.

I did find that my son had a couple of pumps and motors similar to what you posted. I got them from him but they both are worn pretty badly. The part of the shaft that rides on the bearing surface is worn badly. The one still turns freely but the other is dragging against the stator. I had time to take the impeller off the better one and just spun it with a cordless drill and got about 7 volts ac from it just open circuit and my meter. It was only turning about a hundred rpm I guess. I didn't measure it.

I will be unable to do any more testing for the next three days and then will get things set up properly to do some testing with higher rpm and transformers etc.

Later,
Carroll

[genessc]

800VA trafo wired up to match inductance of 24vac side on 50va trafo...

Same effect noted on the 800va trafo as with the 50va trafo now that I got the thing wired up with 3 x 12volt strands in series to net me the ~29mH or so (which is close to the 30mH that the 24vac side of the 50va trafo showed when measured at 120hz.)

This allows the drain pump signal to get into the 800va trafo in the same manner it got into the 50va trafo.

I tried to explain on the video what I think is happening. I think its the common core shaped into the U with rotor between the top prongs but with disparate coils on either U leg. Those are then wired in series, such that the current on the core is spread between the two sides, aka 180degrees out of phase between the two sides maybe?

And that since the trafo shows a single winding on a single common core (with the additional windings put in series also all cowound on the same core) seems to be allowing the Current that would otherwise be stretched out on that U core in the pump motor, to Center on the single coherent core in the trafo... presuming that same ratio is maintained of about 150mH in the pump to about 30mH in the trafo.

I used the 800va to charge up one of the hwbr outputs to a 4.7uF 450vdc cap, which charged up instantly to 230vdc or so. (thats with both 120vac windings in parallel, not series, so that could be roughly doubled most likely but would exceed the rating of this little cap.)

I also after making this video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEMuEfsnKZ4

Went ahead and added the 4th strand in series which brought the inductance from the 29mH to about 78mH... and this seemed to detune the effect a bit...

Single 12v strand was .5mH secondary open and then 2uH with secondary shorted.

double 12v strand was ~9mH open, and ~4uH shorted.

Triple 12v strand was ~29mH and ~6uH shorted.

Quad 12v strands was ~78mH and then 12uH when shorted...

Also noted is if the secondary is shorted when you try and start the drive motor it wont spin up. Has to be open, then once at rpm that can be shorted and the input amps drop.

So it looks like once you get the inductances in their 5:1 rough ratio you should see a similar effect eh? (but you'll want to start with something in the mH to see if the same ratio applies to a different context.) I'm pretty sure the unique formation of the drain pumps core, which is quite similar to the old oil ignition transformers (with the exception of not having a secondary, instead thats replaced by the ceramic magnet rotor.) The O shaped laminates seem to produce a wave different from the EI laminates... I tried many EI laminates but they're Crap compared to the O type core configuration. Thats why I use the oil ignition trafos on my ion chair and bellerian apparatus. Both on youtube as well under user coruscantme.

Anyways theres some more detail.
Cheers.
Gene

[genessc]

Yeap I gotcha. Cool on the trafo.

If you want power at Low frequencies, then yeah usually you need a core to increase the inductance at the low frequencies operating at... at higher frequencies the core becomes a heating issue. If you've read Walter Russell he says that an EM engine should be a Heat Engine tho not in as many words. His Optical Dynamo was meant to be a heat engine, producing alot of heating and then that temp differential is where the power was drawn out of, tho I don't think Walter ever built the machine he diagrammed out.

A curious thing to note about the Mcculloch is that it has to be a two pole generator since it has to run at 3600rpm... (4 poles and it would be running at 1800rpm instead usually) So its quite likely that the magnets that are passing by the coils are setup so that they "en totale" present a common pole to the coil that one half of the rotor is passing by... before inverting to the other polar bias from the opposing pole coming into local reference.

I'm sorta digging around in my garage for a 3rd 50va trafo to add a 3rd hwbr and 3rd 4.7uF 450v cap to see if it also then charges to the same ~325vdc peak volts like the two 4.7uF caps that are on there now...

Its curious because adding the SECOND 50va trafo in parallel to the first made no increase on the input amps at the 12vdc source voltage. Both caps charged up to the same 325vdc or so.

Oh one other thing, all my testing is with that black samsung drain pump motor, not the modular one, in case you were looking to do apples to apples. (tho the inductances I rechecked last night and they're both right around 150mH, so not much variance even tho the grey ones modular while the black ones a formed plastic piece.)

Going to larger caps will force the max volts to drop still more, as with no caps and the scope on the 120vac winding, the output sine is some 1200-1400vac... with the diodes and capacities on there, its keeping that peak voltage from being realized as it syncs into the collector caps via their separate hwbr's.

It is refreshing talking to someone who talks details. Not enough of us types around. In any case it passes the days a little more enjoyably as I do like to be helpful. Thanks for taking the time to chat me up.

Take care!
Gene

Hi Gene,

Yes I am afraid Radio Shack is done for. The only one I have been to lately had everything marked down to 90% off and then they were selling those things with an additional 50% off. I guess they have probably already closed the doors on that one.

I have one of the Radio Shack transformers with a center tap 12 volt winding which I had modified slightly for work with the Tesla Switch when Matt and I and several others were working on that. I also have several other transformers I can try. I just have to dig them out from wherever they are hiding.

I was emailing back and forth with Dave (Turion) and he told me the Mccullock generator does load down when powering a load. It seems to be behaving the same as my window motor. They both seem to be able to generate quite a bit of power even though neither of them have cores in the coils. Something else to ponder as I have always been taught you need a core to get any real power from a generator. Which is obviously not always true.

I am enjoying our discussions. I just wish I had more time to experiment. I am going to be real busy again for the next couple of days so other than trying to locate a pump and motor I may not get much else tested.

Take care. See you later.
Carroll

[citfta]

Thanks Dave,

I couldn't see that in the pictures. That is for sure a strange way to build a generator, but it seems to work well according to those that have played with them.

Later,
Carroll

[Turion]

There is a solid metal core piece that the wire is wound around. It is what gives the coil its unusual shape. I took some pictures a while back and posted them on one of the threads, but I can't find them. My phone took a dump and I lost everything. I hadn't backed up in a while. Silly me. I am using an old phone for right now.

Dave

[citfta]

Hi Dave,

That is interesting. Where is the core? From the pictures I have seen it looks like ribbon wire wound into a rather odd shape. But I couldn't see any core. Is your winding on the smaller one different from the coil pictures posted on the Morin Generator thread?

Carroll

[Turion]

There IS a metal core in those McCulloch coils. It may be laminated metal. I had both coils out of the small one I have.

[citfta]

Hi Gene,

Yes I am afraid Radio Shack is done for. The only one I have been to lately had everything marked down to 90% off and then they were selling those things with an additional 50% off. I guess they have probably already closed the doors on that one.

I have one of the Radio Shack transformers with a center tap 12 volt winding which I had modified slightly for work with the Tesla Switch when Matt and I and several others were working on that. I also have several other transformers I can try. I just have to dig them out from wherever they are hiding.

I was emailing back and forth with Dave (Turion) and he told me the Mccullock generator does load down when powering a load. It seems to be behaving the same as my window motor. They both seem to be able to generate quite a bit of power even though neither of them have cores in the coils. Something else to ponder as I have always been taught you need a core to get any real power from a generator. Which is obviously not always true.

I am enjoying our discussions. I just wish I had more time to experiment. I am going to be real busy again for the next couple of days so other than trying to locate a pump and motor I may not get much else tested.

Take care. See you later.
Carroll

[genessc]

Sounds good. Yeah if I scope the 120vac side with the setup running its outputting some 1200vac or so peak to peak... Course these are just 50va trafos from radio shack, heres the link to that in case you want to get one of those and use it with the pump motor so you don't toast that bigger trafo.

I have a bunch of different trafos... about half are EI cores and the other half are toroids, many from Antek... I have 4 of the an8412's which are two 120windings and 4 12v windings... leftover from the rotoverter work years back. I might try measuring one of those to see how it looks... since they are primarily toroid mass, and not much wire on them... all inductance seemingly granted by the type of monster toroid the turns are wrapped upon.

I spent the past 20 minutes looking for the transformers that look like mine... the radio shack site won't load up. All the other sites trafos don't look like the two 50VA trafos I have wired up to the drain pump now.

Best I could locate was this:
Index to Adapters, Transformers, and Power Supplies

There are a few entries under Transformers, I think the 24vac CT trafo is the one I have, but theres no picture of it on that link.

Guess radio shacks had it huh... wonder if the one I used to go to is still even open.

Regards,
Gene

OK, rewired the coils so they were all in series. Got 184 vac out which means I must have gotten everything phased right. The inductance came up to 18.48 mh. I also remembered to check the inductance of the transformer. The transformer is connected up for 240 v input and 24 volt output. The 240 input has an inductance of 1.32 H and the 24 volt side has an inductance of 15.3 mh. When I connected the output of the generator (184 v) to the 240 volt side I got 18 volts on the 24 volt side. If I shorted the output of the transformer it overloaded the generator almost to the point of stopping. Putting a small load on the transformer also loaded the generator a small amount.

I did not want to connect the 184 v to the low voltage side of the transformer because then the high voltage side would probably start arcing inside and ruin my transformer or maybe zap me also. I think I am not getting your results simply because my generator does not have a high impedance like your pump motor you are using as a generator.

Later,
Carroll

PS: I was working on this post while you were posting yours. I agree completely about the difference in inductance playing a part in the action. Thanks for the info on the pumps. I'll start looking.

[citfta]

OK, rewired the coils so they were all in series. Got 184 vac out which means I must have gotten everything phased right. The inductance came up to 18.48 mh. I also remembered to check the inductance of the transformer. The transformer is connected up for 240 v input and 24 volt output. The 240 input has an inductance of 1.32 H and the 24 volt side has an inductance of 15.3 mh. When I connected the output of the generator (184 v) to the 240 volt side I got 18 volts on the 24 volt side. If I shorted the output of the transformer it overloaded the generator almost to the point of stopping. Putting a small load on the transformer also loaded the generator a small amount.

I did not want to connect the 184 v to the low voltage side of the transformer because then the high voltage side would probably start arcing inside and ruin my transformer or maybe zap me also. I think I am not getting your results simply because my generator does not have a high impedance like your pump motor you are using as a generator.

Later,
Carroll

PS: I was working on this post while you were posting yours. I agree completely about the difference in inductance playing a part in the action. Thanks for the info on the pumps. I'll start looking.

[genessc]

Howdy Carroll,

Thanks for those details, I always appreciate details.

I suspect that the function depends on the inductances in play. Meaning the thing spinning as a generator has to have a relatively High inductance in relation to the transformer thats then attached to it, as that transformer has to have a much lower inductance for it to pull the current out of the higher inductances windings once the transformers secondary is shorted.

In the window motor case you have a pretty low inductance of 517uH and the transformer low volt sides inductance is probably still at least 20-30mH thats been put in relation with the output from your window motor. That might be why the Current is Sitting in the motors windings and creating that lag, instead of pulling the Current over to the trafos windings. Maybe?

As for the drain pump motors, I ended up buying two different ones so I could put one on the kollmorgan motor and one on the DC brushed motor to see how they both worked as drive motors. The first one I got was the all black plastic drain pump motor for a samsung washing machine. That was this one.

DC31 00054A Washer Drain Pump for Samsung PS4204638 AP4202690 Washing Machine | eBay

The one above comes apart oddly, but you can't pull the coils from it as its all one fused plastic motor form. The nice part tho was this one has a metal knub under the impellor once you break it off and you can cut the little key off leaving a nice 1/4inch metal knub on the shaft to put the little spider coupler on.

The second one I bought I got the modular version which let me pull the rotor out, remove the laminates and also pull the coil pack... That was this one:

Drain Pump for Samsung Washer DC31 00054A Washing Machine | eBay

I wanted to try the thing without the laminates to see what the resultant sine looked like, and it was pathetic. Maybe 12vac at the same rpm that we see the 400vac from with the laminates present. So the laminates are necessary given the small reach of the ceramic rotor magnet.

Also this second one has a plastic knub with a key on it too, used the dremel to cut the key off and its also at 1/4inch diameter for the spider coupler. There wasn't much difference between the twos inductances, one was ~131mH and the other at the 152mH mark or so... both are 80watt rated pumps.

Lemme know what else I can help with.

Take care man,
Gene

Hello Gene,

Finally got some time to get back to a little experimenting. Yes the window motor does have air coils with no core. I have three coils on mine with them mounted so that each side of a coil is lined up with one magnet. And the magnets alternate from north to south so a single coil sees on one side a north magnet and on the other side a south magnet. With all coils wired in parallel I get an inductance of .517 mh. Looking at the open signal on my scope I get a very nice and clean sine wave at a frequency of 140 hz and a voltage of 31 volts. There are six neo magnets mounted on the rotor and mounted so the long axis of the magnet is parallel to the shaft. The coils are elongated to match the size of the magnets. The picture will help you see what I mean. I know it looks crude, but it runs very smoothly.

I just had an idea I think I will try. Each of those coils is actually bifiler because I was originally running it as a window motor using individual trigger windings. I wonder what would happen if I connect all six windings in series to raise the inductance? Then it would be more like the pump motor you are using with the higher inductance in the motor. It will take a little while to make sure I get all the phasing correct but I think I will try that. I'll let you know what happens.

I tried running the generator at a higher speed from 2800 to about 3600 rpm but it still loaded down badly if I shorted the output. So I guess I need to find one of those pump motors. I looked through the Morin thread for a while but did not see what brand of motor and pump you are using. I really didn't want to watch the hour long video of Morin to try and figure out what pump motor he had. If you don't mind where did you get your motor and what kind is it?

Thanks for sharing what you are doing.

Later,
Carroll

[citfta]

Hello Gene,

Finally got some time to get back to a little experimenting. Yes the window motor does have air coils with no core. I have three coils on mine with them mounted so that each side of a coil is lined up with one magnet. And the magnets alternate from north to south so a single coil sees on one side a north magnet and on the other side a south magnet. With all coils wired in parallel I get an inductance of .517 mh. Looking at the open signal on my scope I get a very nice and clean sine wave at a frequency of 140 hz and a voltage of 31 volts. There are six neo magnets mounted on the rotor and mounted so the long axis of the magnet is parallel to the shaft. The coils are elongated to match the size of the magnets. The picture will help you see what I mean. I know it looks crude, but it runs very smoothly.

I just had an idea I think I will try. Each of those coils is actually bifiler because I was originally running it as a window motor using individual trigger windings. I wonder what would happen if I connect all six windings in series to raise the inductance? Then it would be more like the pump motor you are using with the higher inductance in the motor. It will take a little while to make sure I get all the phasing correct but I think I will try that. I'll let you know what happens.

I tried running the generator at a higher speed from 2800 to about 3600 rpm but it still loaded down badly if I shorted the output. So I guess I need to find one of those pump motors. I looked through the Morin thread for a while but did not see what brand of motor and pump you are using. I really didn't want to watch the hour long video of Morin to try and figure out what pump motor he had. If you don't mind where did you get your motor and what kind is it?

Thanks for sharing what you are doing.

Later,
Carroll

[genessc]

Some additional details. I had a second 50va trafo and I wired it in parallel with the first with the LV side tied to the drain pump output. Now two are wired up directly to the drain pump.

I then put a half wave bridge rectifier (aka 2 diodes, one on either leg output from the 120vac side) into a 4.7uF 450v rated lytic cap.

On the other trafos output I left it open.

When I spun it up configured this way, that 4.7uF cap went to about 320vdc in charge...

If I then shorted the other open output winding on the other transformer, the dc collector cap would start to fall in voltage and would no longer accrue power. (input was 2.5amps, would drop to ~1.5amps)

If I put that other winding thru a 40watt 120vac rated incandescent lamp, again that 320vdc or so would start to fall, it would usually settle around 50vdc or so... as the 40 watt lamp would dimly be lit. (input was 2.5amps and would drop to ~2amps with the lamp as load)

Lastly I put a second hwbr and 4.7uF cap on the Other trafos secondary wired up so that the second 4.7uF cap was taking the wave from the other directional flow from the first transformers hwbr connections. (input was 2.5amps and didn't change when I added one or both capacitors as collectors.)

The size of the collector cap is what is gonna determine the max volts into it and over what period of time to reach that volt potential... 4.7 is pretty small. Prolly see about getting some 120uF 450v photo flash caps to try and see what the collected voltage then becomes and also how that increased uF size on the collecting caps might affect the input current.

The one thing that does appear to be the case is that the Current wants to flow where the least inductance is... so because shorting the trafos 120v side when the 24v side is wired to the drain pump is causing its inductance to go from ~31mH to ~2mH, the bulk of the current shifts out of the drain pump motor and into that 2mH winding resulting in that current doubling to about 700mA or so. (with it unshorted that current was around 350mA on the drain pump output.)

So this will charge caps... Anywho, there ya go. Might be more useful to play with than trying to follow Bromikey and the conundrum Morin.

Cheers,
Gene

Howdy Carroll,

The drain pump motor consists of the two separate coils sharing the same armature laminates that reach up around the 2 pole ceramic magnet rotor. It could be the way those windings are interconnected.

One thing thats maybe unique in this context is that the transformer has a single winding center tapped for the 24vac side thats directly connected to the drain pump motor. While the drain pump has two physically offset coils sharing only the same core. Maybe the loading that would normally occur in the drain pumps windings are all circulating back and forth in the trafos 24vac winding, since its got so much less resistance and inductance when its secondary is shorted.

151mH on the drain pump into 2.2mH on the trafo 24vac winding is when its going faster... and here it dropped to the 1.5-1.6amp mark on input.

When its going at the 2.5amp input, that drain pumps 151mH is into 31mH or so.

I suppose I should also check the virtual capacitance and the impedance (resistance at frequency) with that 878A meter so I can account for those things as well.

If memory serves the window type motors don't use any cores, just air cored coils yeah?

It might also have something to do with the size of the sine on the AC signal being produced... ie peak voltage coming out... and how fast those peaks are transitioning... lower peaks can transition slower and maybe not produce the effect? I dunno. Just speculating out loud.

Theres a concept noted in a book called "dashed against the rocks; a romance of the coming age" that asserts that simply the DC voltage itself produces internal vibration within whatever is holding that voltage... A chart in that book noted that 50,000vdc was like the 75th octave of vibration... would have to go dig up that book to verify it exactly tho I think Dale Pond has a copy on svpvril.com that might be found.

Yeap always more crumbs on the trail...

Take care,
Gene

[genessc]

Howdy Carroll,

The drain pump motor consists of the two separate coils sharing the same armature laminates that reach up around the 2 pole ceramic magnet rotor. It could be the way those windings are interconnected.

One thing thats maybe unique in this context is that the transformer has a single winding center tapped for the 24vac side thats directly connected to the drain pump motor. While the drain pump has two physically offset coils sharing only the same core. Maybe the loading that would normally occur in the drain pumps windings are all circulating back and forth in the trafos 24vac winding, since its got so much less resistance and inductance when its secondary is shorted.

151mH on the drain pump into 2.2mH on the trafo 24vac winding is when its going faster... and here it dropped to the 1.5-1.6amp mark on input.

When its going at the 2.5amp input, that drain pumps 151mH is into 31mH or so.

I suppose I should also check the virtual capacitance and the impedance (resistance at frequency) with that 878A meter so I can account for those things as well.

If memory serves the window type motors don't use any cores, just air cored coils yeah?

It might also have something to do with the size of the sine on the AC signal being produced... ie peak voltage coming out... and how fast those peaks are transitioning... lower peaks can transition slower and maybe not produce the effect? I dunno. Just speculating out loud.

Theres a concept noted in a book called "dashed against the rocks; a romance of the coming age" that asserts that simply the DC voltage itself produces internal vibration within whatever is holding that voltage... A chart in that book noted that 50,000vdc was like the 75th octave of vibration... would have to go dig up that book to verify it exactly tho I think Dale Pond has a copy on svpvril.com that might be found.

Yeap always more crumbs on the trail...

Take care,
Gene

Hello again Gene.

Well my out of town guests have been delayed a few hours so I ran a couple of quick tests. I have a window motor of my own design that I have wired up to be a generator instead of a motor. I am turning it with a scooter motor modified according to the Matt Jones design. I also have a small flywheel mounted on the same shaft for another project I am working on. So I am running the scooter motor off a 12volt 30 amp power supply. My son has borrowed my tach so I don't know what rpm I am getting. when I tried shorting the output of the window motor/generator directly the current went way up on the scooter motor and the load slowed everything way down almost to a stop.

I then hooked up a transformer with the 240 volt windings connected to the generator. With no load I could not see any difference in current draw, but am using an analogue meter so it could have moved a little. When I shorted the output of the 24 volt windings it make a very slight increase in current. Maybe a needle width. This makes sense as the generator is putting out about 30 volts AC so feeding that into the 240 volt windings would drop the voltage to 3 volts or so which means very little current would be flowing.

When I reversed the transformer so I was feeding the 24 windings with the 30 volts and shorted the 300 volts or so output it brought the system almost to a stop again. At no time did I see any speed up of the system or a reduction in current.

Is the reason for that because there is something special in the pump motor being used as a generator? Or is the answer that maybe I need to speed up the generator to get the effect? As best I recall it seems that in the case of reduced current and increased speed the generator was already spinning at a high rpm. I think I remember someone theorizing that if you could get the generator moving fast enough that by the time lentz starts to come into play the magnets have moved enough that lentz helps to push them away or maybe draw the next one.

I guess after the company is gone I will have to find one of those pump motors to play with and do some testing of my own.

Later,
Carroll