Open discussion for projects on this forum.

[citfta]

Hello again Gene.

Well my out of town guests have been delayed a few hours so I ran a couple of quick tests. I have a window motor of my own design that I have wired up to be a generator instead of a motor. I am turning it with a scooter motor modified according to the Matt Jones design. I also have a small flywheel mounted on the same shaft for another project I am working on. So I am running the scooter motor off a 12volt 30 amp power supply. My son has borrowed my tach so I don't know what rpm I am getting. when I tried shorting the output of the window motor/generator directly the current went way up on the scooter motor and the load slowed everything way down almost to a stop.

I then hooked up a transformer with the 240 volt windings connected to the generator. With no load I could not see any difference in current draw, but am using an analogue meter so it could have moved a little. When I shorted the output of the 24 volt windings it make a very slight increase in current. Maybe a needle width. This makes sense as the generator is putting out about 30 volts AC so feeding that into the 240 volt windings would drop the voltage to 3 volts or so which means very little current would be flowing.

When I reversed the transformer so I was feeding the 24 windings with the 30 volts and shorted the 300 volts or so output it brought the system almost to a stop again. At no time did I see any speed up of the system or a reduction in current.

Is the reason for that because there is something special in the pump motor being used as a generator? Or is the answer that maybe I need to speed up the generator to get the effect? As best I recall it seems that in the case of reduced current and increased speed the generator was already spinning at a high rpm. I think I remember someone theorizing that if you could get the generator moving fast enough that by the time lentz starts to come into play the magnets have moved enough that lentz helps to push them away or maybe draw the next one.

I guess after the company is gone I will have to find one of those pump motors to play with and do some testing of my own.

Later,
Carroll

[genessc]

Hi Matt,

I'm interested in changing up careers to become a farmer, have been for some time. It might be nice to be local to others who also share the same type of energy hobbies as maybe in the offhours we could get together and build stuff...

Not sure if thats something you're amicable to, so if you want, please pm me on the group here or hit me at [email protected] and maybe we can discuss the farming end of things a bit?

Totally up to you, I respect its your livelihood, so no pressure man.

I'm just sick of living in silly con valley... need the real world... country livin...

Take care!
Gene

We just grow produce, all year, all kinds. Right now we're certified organic and I really want a Biodynamic certification within the next 3 years. I got an orchard too that we're going to expand on. Fish too, I wanna grow fish, but without an organic grain farmer to buy food from its hard, so I gotta a lot planning ahead of me. I am the only organic farmer in this county so far and one of 3 in a nine county radius. But a lot of people are starting to catch on so as the market grows so will the farmers, I would think anyway.

Matt

[citfta]

That is great Matt. I am sure there are a lot of challenges to an operation that large. But also a lot of benefits to being the first in the area. Our own farming now is limited to just raising enough for us and our son with maybe some left over for friends and neighbors. We also are pretty much orgnanic. Our son has chickens, rabbits, goats and pigs so we can get plenty of manure for fertilizer. We also have some friends that have horses and they use sawdust for the bedding. That makes it so much easier to use as manure for the garden as the tiller can work it into the ground without all the hassle of straw tangling up in the tines. We use raised beds with a lot of organic material mixed in. This Georgia clay sets up like concrete when the sun hits it if it is not loaded with lots of loose organic material.

I realize this is somewhat off topic, but hey I started this thread so I can post about whatever I want.

Take care Matt.
C Ya later,
Carroll

[Matthew Jones]

My wife is curious as to what kind of crops you are planting. She grew up working on her grandparents farm. They mostly raised tobacco and corn. She grew up in the hills of southern Ky.

Later,
Carroll

We just grow produce, all year, all kinds. Right now we're certified organic and I really want a Biodynamic certification within the next 3 years. I got an orchard too that we're going to expand on. Fish too, I wanna grow fish, but without an organic grain farmer to buy food from its hard, so I gotta a lot planning ahead of me. I am the only organic farmer in this county so far and one of 3 in a nine county radius. But a lot of people are starting to catch on so as the market grows so will the farmers, I would think anyway.

Matt

[citfta]

Nice mill

Nice looking mill Matt. With a 5 axis machine there is almost nothing you can't machine. About the only thing you can't do is turn parts like you can on a lathe. And I have one of those if you need something turned. If it uses regular machine G and M codes I can help with the programming if you need any help with that. Most of those codes are pretty standard with a few odd ones now and then for special features a particular machine might have.

My wife is curious as to what kind of crops you are planting. She grew up working on her grandparents farm. They mostly raised tobacco and corn. She grew up in the hills of southern Ky.

Later,
Carroll

[Matthew Jones]

Hey Matt,

Good to see you on here. I was afraid maybe you were stuck in a field somewhere trying to get your crops in the ground while the weather has been so nice lately. I tested the rewound scooter motor driving my old window motor using the window motor as a generator. Comparing another motor that has not been rewound and the rewound motor the rewound motor uses a little more current but turns quite a bit faster. My son has borrowed my tach so I have to get it back to see how much faster. But the window motor as a generator was putting out 20 volts unloaded on the original wound motor. On the rewound motor the window motor put out 31 volts so I would guess the rewound motor is turning at least 50% faster than the original motor.

As far as guys like BroMikey, they don't really bother me anymore. I will try to help them see the truth. If they refuse then I will just let them enjoy their self-induced ignorance. Besides some of their ideas are just plain funny. It's kinda like watching some primitive in the jungle trying to worship an airplane.

Congratulations on the CNC machine. I told Dave if you guys need any help with it let me know. That is what I worked on for the last 25 years or so before I retired. Send me some info on it by email if you want. Like what size and brand and age. I am assuming it is a Mill. Is it more than a 3 axis machine? What software are you using? I am just being nosey, and I understand you are really busy right now so I don't expect an answer real quick.

Take care and I hope you get the rest of your crops in the ground before the next round of rain gets here.

Later,
Carroll

I am putting in 150k plants this spring/summer/fall. Average a dollar a plant after expenses.
The mill is 5 axis:
HY 3040 CNC 5 Axis Router Column Engraving Machine Ball Screw 1500W Spindle | eBay

Should get something done with it.

Matt

[Matthew Jones]

I've found that if you add all the morons that spam this forum to the ignore list, pretty much the entire site disappears.

And whats wrong with that?


Matt

[genessc]

Thanks Matt, Will Do!

Gene

You can go into your USER CP button on top of the sreen, then look to the left bar and go down till you find EDIT IGNORE LIST. ADD....

BROMIKEY The idiot!!

All your concerns about morons that spam this forum will disappear. Its a beautiful thing, use it and enjoy.

Nothing he says has any value anyway and he is probably one of the most successful misinformationist to grace us, so get rid of him and its that easy.

Matt

[genessc]

You bet!

After the fact I got the B&K878A LCR meter, set to 120hz and took inductance readings of the trafos windings with the Other winding shorted and open.

The 24vac side connected to the drain pump has an inductance of ~31.69mH.

When I short the 120vac side, the 24vac sides inductance drops to read 2.226mH.

I then checked the 120vac sides inductances both shorting the 24vac side and then leaving it open.

With 24vac shorted, the 120vac winding noted 40.15mH.

With the 24vac unshorted, the 120vac winding noted a 583.7mH inductance.

These last two measures are not of any particular importance, as the 120vac side is the output side, while its the 24vac side thats having its inductance manipulated by shorting the 120vac side.

Lastly I put the LCR meter on the two leads coming out of the drain pump motor as generator. The drain pumps inductance at the 120hz mark is 151.82mH.

If we put that in context, that means theres a 151.82mH of inductance feeding Out into the 31mH of inductance, and when thats the case we get the loading of 2.5amps on the input drive motor.

(note the 151.82mH inductance is variable by about 20-40mH +/- due the perm magnet rotors rotation causing this variability in its inductance.)

Thus when that 151.82mH is sent into 31mH we get some amount of pushback on the drive motor requiring that additional input Current to drive the drain pump.

When that 151.82mH is then seeing 2.22mH, What was volts becomes current as the windings impedance (resistance at frequency) becomes the limiting factor I guess.

To me, it seems like the volts is high and the loading heavy when the output circuit is setup to require big volts in... but if maybe the output circuit takes it all out primarily as current versus volts then maybe its allowing the current that would otherwise oscillate in the drain pumps own windings creating that reflective drag to then be circulating in the 24vac side in the 50va trafo sorta removing that energy from being locally circulated in the drain pump which is what allows the drain pump to speed back up and the input current to drop?

Anyways wanted to share those readings, since with the drive motor input volts I can adjust to get the thing running right at 120hz... it makes those measurements more useful... meter can also measure at 1khz, but ain't taking this drain pump motor to 20krpm...

Enjoy the company. This stuff can wait. (I totally understand about evgray, I was on there for years... been off for a couple years now... silver and hector, twins... neither of overmuch practical use... Nevermind some of the others... Ash was usually ok tho... )

Take care!
Gene

hey Gene,

Thanks so much for taking the time to help with my curiosity! Well that is Verrry Interesting as that guy used to say on Laugh-In. Since the current is going up I wonder why the motor is speeding up and drawing less current?

I think it was Konehead who wrote the info I was reading. I have been away from the alternative energy field for over a year and so have forgotten some of the little I had learned. I used to be very active on this forum but got burned out dealing with people like Mikey, only some of them were much worse.

Why do you always have to have visitors coming right when you find something interesting you really want to dig into? Oh well, maybe next week I can do some serious testing.

Take care,
Carroll

[Dingus]

All your concerns about morons that spam this forum will disappear. Its a beautiful thing, use it and enjoy.

I've found that if you add all the morons that spam this forum to the ignore list, pretty much the entire site disappears.

[citfta]

Hey Matt,

Good to see you on here. I was afraid maybe you were stuck in a field somewhere trying to get your crops in the ground while the weather has been so nice lately. I tested the rewound scooter motor driving my old window motor using the window motor as a generator. Comparing another motor that has not been rewound and the rewound motor the rewound motor uses a little more current but turns quite a bit faster. My son has borrowed my tach so I have to get it back to see how much faster. But the window motor as a generator was putting out 20 volts unloaded on the original wound motor. On the rewound motor the window motor put out 31 volts so I would guess the rewound motor is turning at least 50% faster than the original motor.

As far as guys like BroMikey, they don't really bother me anymore. I will try to help them see the truth. If they refuse then I will just let them enjoy their self-induced ignorance. Besides some of their ideas are just plain funny. It's kinda like watching some primitive in the jungle trying to worship an airplane.

Congratulations on the CNC machine. I told Dave if you guys need any help with it let me know. That is what I worked on for the last 25 years or so before I retired. Send me some info on it by email if you want. Like what size and brand and age. I am assuming it is a Mill. Is it more than a 3 axis machine? What software are you using? I am just being nosey, and I understand you are really busy right now so I don't expect an answer real quick.

Take care and I hope you get the rest of your crops in the ground before the next round of rain gets here.

Later,
Carroll

[Matthew Jones]

I used to be very active on this forum but got burned out dealing with people like Mikey, only some of them were much worse.
t week I can do some serious testing.

Take care,
Carroll

You can go into your USER CP button on top of the sreen, then look to the left bar and go down till you find EDIT IGNORE LIST. ADD....

BROMIKEY The idiot!!

All your concerns about morons that spam this forum will disappear. Its a beautiful thing, use it and enjoy.

Nothing he says has any value anyway and he is probably one of the most successful misinformationist to grace us, so get rid of him and its that easy.

Matt

[citfta]

hey Gene,

Thanks so much for taking the time to help with my curiosity! Well that is Verrry Interesting as that guy used to say on Laugh-In. Since the current is going up I wonder why the motor is speeding up and drawing less current?

I think it was Konehead who wrote the info I was reading. I have been away from the alternative energy field for over a year and so have forgotten some of the little I had learned. I used to be very active on this forum but got burned out dealing with people like Mikey, only some of them were much worse.

Why do you always have to have visitors coming right when you find something interesting you really want to dig into? Oh well, maybe next week I can do some serious testing.

Take care,
Carroll

[genessc]

You bet Carroll.

Yeap it goes down close to zero...its at about 7-10vac is all, I coulda zoomed in I suppose to show what was then left with it shorted.

I'll toss an AC ammeter in series on that primary to drain pump connection so we can see what its averaging open and then shorted. Will video that and toss it on the net. (looks like I don't have a low current AC analog ammeter, gonna try the DVM as an ammeter, not the best but should give the general directional indication of current flow rates. )

That guy I think you are referring to is Thane Heins and his Bitoroid eh? If not, will be curious to hear what the reference is you are thinking of. (or might have been Konehead on Evgray maybe? been a few guys talking about shorting at the right place in the rotors rotations.)

Heres that vid with DVM as ammeter in series on primary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ1xbWKrF1A

Just to sum the video, the amps go up... measured unshorted at ~325mA and then Shorted at ~712mA

Take care!
Gene

Thanks Gene,

That was not quite what I was expecting. I am going to have to think on those results a while. I guess I should have expected the voltage on the input to go to zero since the output is shorted. Sorry to keep bothering you but do you have a way to measure what the current on the input does? I would expect it to go up since the secondary is shorted but since the motor seems to unload maybe it is actually going down? If it is going down, then the question is why? Somewhere a while back I read someone's theory about coil shorting but I don't recall what they said about it. I guess when I have time I will have to do some digging and see if I can find that info.

Thanks for your quick reply.
Carroll

[citfta]

Thanks Gene,

That was not quite what I was expecting. I am going to have to think on those results a while. I guess I should have expected the voltage on the input to go to zero since the output is shorted. Sorry to keep bothering you but do you have a way to measure what the current on the input does? I would expect it to go up since the secondary is shorted but since the motor seems to unload maybe it is actually going down? If it is going down, then the question is why? Somewhere a while back I read someone's theory about coil shorting but I don't recall what they said about it. I guess when I have time I will have to do some digging and see if I can find that info.

Thanks for your quick reply.
Carroll