Open discussion for projects on this forum.

[citfta]

Hi guys,

I have just realized I made a mistake with the information I posted in post #382. I was posting about the value of the windings in the pump motor and the windings of the transformer I was using. I gave those values as impedance. That is NOT correct. Those values are actually the inductance values of the windings.

As gene has pointed out the impedance value changes as the frequency changes. However the inductance value does not change. Sorry for the confusion. I just wasn't paying attention to what I posted.

A couple of quick lessons for those of you trying to understand some of this electronic stuff. As the frequency goes up the impedance goes up for an inductor. Conversely as the frequency goes down the impedance goes up for a capacitor. The actual impedance value will depend on the inductance and the frequency or the capacitance and frequency. And as gene also pointed out all devices have some of each although we usually ignore very small capacitance values or very small inductance values.

If you are not overloaded yet here is one more little tidbit. Just remember the saying "Eli the Ice man" ELI meaning voltage leads current in an inductor. And ICE meaning current leads voltage in a capacitor. This makes sense if you remember in electronics E stands for voltage and I stands for current. Also C stands for a capacitor and L stands for an inductor.

Later,
Carroll

[citfta]

Thank you gyula for the excellent link. Very informative.

Carroll

[gyula]

Hi Folks,

Here is an animation on waves "meeting" with each other, a good illustration for what erfinder mentioned as colliding waves and the amplitude increase. There is more to it as usual, you can see further demos on waves with reflections etc in this link:

Travelling Waves I - A multimedia presentation from Physclips

Gyula

[citfta]

Hello thaelin,

Thanks for your comments. I will try to add to what has already been stated by erfinder and Gene. Both of them are correct in what they are saying I am only going to try and add some more to their comments.

First I want to suggest that if you really want to learn about electronics and in particular radio theory you need to get a copy of the ARRL amateur radio operators handbook. If you will take the time to study and learn from that book you will at least have a grasp of the basics of electronics. You will also learn the correct meaning of terms like inductance and impedance. Then you will be able to communicate effectively with others that also have taken the time to learn proper theory and terminology. I am not suggesting that the theory you will learn is complete by any means but at least it will give you a good starting point.

The reason I am stressing this so much is because there are so many on this forum that will believe anything they see because they don't know what they should be seeing or how to interpret what they do see. Let me give you a simplified example. You want to go out and discover some new territory that has never been seen before. Now if you went out without any maps at all how would you know if you were in new territory? Now if you had a good set of maps you could easily recognize when you were no longer in old territory. Think of the basics of electronics as your maps of established territory. Learning the basics helps you to see when something unusual is actually happening. And the basics also help you to see when something that happens is perfectly normal and not unusual at all.

OK, enough preaching now to your questions. Yes you certainly can have more than one signal on a wire. Your cable company does it all the time. By sending signals that are of a different frequency you can send several signals all at once. You just need something on the other end to separate them out again and that is what your cable box does.

What erfinder is referring to is known in the radio world as SWR or standing wave ratio. If there is an impedance mismatch between the transmitter and the feed line or the feed line and the antenna then part of the signal is reflected back to the transmitter. In the radio world this is a bad thing because the reflected power can damage the transmitter output device especially if it is solid state like a transistor. In the old days when CB was really popular the CBers discovered they could adjust the length of the coax to get the signals to reinforce and thus fool the SWR meter into thinking the reflected signal was actually the signal going out. This didn't really help their transmitted signal but it did make the transmitter output happy. The correct way to solve the problem is to make sure the antenna impedance is correct so all the power actually goes into the antenna and thus gives you a better signal out.

Now what erfinder is doing is actually close but not the same. He wants the reflected power and has found a way to use it to do some pretty interesting things in the way of generating power from some coils. You need to look for his Youtube videos and you can learn from a serious researcher.

What Gene has posted about heterodyning is also correct. This is something else you can learn a lot about in the ARRL handbook. This is a common method used by all radio and television receivers to help them to separate the signals of one channel from all the rest. I don't really have time right now to explain how all that works but the idea is very sound and has been used since the early days of radio. If you get into serious study and have questions then just ask and I will try to answer as best I can or at least point you in a direction to help you.

Could you explain what you mean by your statement that the load will see a 60 hz source even if it in the beginning was not. I am not understanding what you mean by that.

Mostly aimed at Citfta but anyone who would like to comment. I have been looking into many things along the way. What has gleaned my attention is the ability of two signals to share the same transport. When thoes two signals hit each other, they add but go on. On the whole, the "transport" or wire will see a pulse of the addition. I have proved this with two signal gens and a scope.
If you have these two signals timed to say 60 hz then a load will see the signal as a 60 cycle source. Then a load will see a 60hz source even if it in the beginning was not. Might be noisy but still 60 hz.

Later,
Carroll

trying to find out if my line of thinking is true. Comments?

[genessc]

Ah synchronicity. I just read some comment by harvey norris about how parallel flows on parallel strands end up seeing a zero force between each strand due the energy in motion. The comment referenced the guy that wrote the below book.

Newtonian Electrodynamics
Graneau, Peter; Graneau, Neal

I went looking for a used copy of that book, and found a single version of it for about 165bux... I'm awaiting delivery of it. It should be a good read, here was the description for it.

"Book Description: Dust jacket now contained in mylar cover. Contents include: Evolution of Newtonian Electrodynamics, Longitudinal Ampere Forces, Theoretical Developments, Nature of Current Elements, The Railgun, Arc Explosions.; 8vo "

The main thing I'm curious about is the longitudinal ampere forces...

Tesla was also noted to say you could have many currents on a single conductor...

Have you looked up heterodyning at all? the mixing of two frequencies to produce a 3rd and 4th... which if done just so produces the 3rd as a reinforcement of one of the primary frequencies? for example if you wanted to produce a 60hz frequency from a pair of oscillators, one could be set to run at 60hz, the other at 120hz... then given how heterodyning works, when those two freqs mix they produce the Added and Subtracted sums as additional beat frequencies... thus the added frequency would be 180hz... and the subtracted frequency would again be 60hz... reinforcing one of the base beat freqs. This idea tho considers two sources mixed after the signals are produced... not really a single conductor coil being used for both to be driven on that one strand.

You might look into radio a bit for the "mixing" aspect of wavelengths.

Hopefully thats helpful.
Gene

Mostly aimed at Citfta but anyone who would like to comment. I have been looking into many things along the way. What has gleaned my attention is the ability of two signals to share the same transport. When thoes two signals hit each other, they add but go on. On the whole, the "transport" or wire will see a pulse of the addition. I have proved this with two signal gens and a scope.
If you have these two signals timed to say 60 hz then a load will see the signal as a 60 cycle source. Then a load will see a 60hz source even if it in the beginning was not. Might be noisy but still 60 hz.

trying to find out if my line of thinking is true. Comments?

[genessc]

Howdy Artv,

cool, yeah I understand, I do better with something to get my hands on too.

Inductance might be considered the inverse of capacity. The two are directly related and always exist on whatever component there is. Thus all electric components carry the triplet of Resistance, Inductance and Capacitance in some measure/combination.

Both inductance and capacitance need to be measured "at frequency" so that they can be determined as its a function of the Frequency which determines how the things being measured return their results.

If the Frequency of the thing doing the measuring changes, So does the measured values of the SAME thing under test.

Thats why I suggest an LCR meter that does its measures on at least 2 frequencies so one can get an idea of how the frequency affects the Traits of the component being measured.

Impedance is Resistance At Frequency. Resistance is Not a set value when the power applied is not constantly applied DC. Resistance varies with the frequencies applied to whatever component. So with pulsed DC or AC or any of the range of waveforms that are not constant, the actual response from the components varies.

Thats a good question on the bulbs, I don't think it would be the same thing because each lamps filament has the same characteristics as the other filament, so it would not be accounting for the necessary voltage to go thru the lamps with 3 lamps (40/40/20) all in series eh? I'd need 3 x the volts rated on one of the lamps to get them to light at all in series, so some 360vac. If I put them all in parallel it might be closer to the 100watt single bulb, but I would most likely see an imbalanced flow of energy with most going to the pair of 40watt bulbs and a lesser part going thru the 20watt bulb. In theory that amount of Current being allowed to flow *should* produce the same effect as a single 100watt lamp. I'm not sure what doing this would prove tho, do you have a reason for why you'd test the circuit in this manner?

All good man, you seem intent on wanting to learn so thats cool by me. If I can help you out, I'll do so.

Take care,
Gene

Thanks for the reply Gene, I do read on that all about circuits, but it's hard to grasp the concepts through reading. I do better with hands on.
Inductance to me is sort of like capacity?
Impeadence is like resistance?
What I meant by adding a load behind was trying different loads.
Sorry that may not be clear, the 40watt killed the motor, the 100watt didn't light but it increased the rpm at the same time reducing input??
Would the 40 with say another 40 and a 20 in series produce the same results as just the 100?
The math says yes right?
Sorry not trying to waste anybodies time ,just when I see stuff like that it makes me want to try all kinds of different things.
artv

[genessc]

Kool, thanks for giving it a go. The 24v side on your trafo is a little low by about half the inductance needed for the effect to be noted, tho also your drain pump you noted was 124mH or so so I would have thought that might be close still.

The ratio seems to be a 5:1 ratio, with the drain pump being the 5 for L and the trafo being the 1 for L.

In my case its 151mH for the drain pump and ~30mH for both the 24v secondary on the 50va trafo and ~30mH for 3 x 12v windings all in series on the 800va trafo. The resistance must be pretty low given that these are the LV sides windings...

You might see if you can add more inductance in series to the 24v side of the trafo where it connects to the drain pump to try and get that up to ~30mH or so to see if that makes the effect more pronounced then when you short the secondary...

This config might be used for charging caps I guess... it would need to be compared against bedinis SS SG tho since that charges caps the best I've seen... so far.

Take it easy,
Gene

Hello again Gene,


Well I got the pump motor mounted and connected to a 12 volt motor. I do not have a way yet to accurately measure the rpm but I still wanted to do some quick tests.

First some data to consider. The impedance of the pump motor winding is 126.6 mh. The transformer can be wired for 240 or 480 volts. The secondary is only 24 volts with no center tap.

240 v primary impedance 1.293 H with 24 volt winding open
240 v primary impedance 35.6 mh with 24 volt winding shorted
480 v primary impedance 4.86 H with 24 volt winding open
480 v primary impedance 142.6 mh with 24 volt winding shorted
24 v secondary impedance 15.1 mh with 240 volt winding open
24 v secondary impedance .42 mh with 240 volt winding shorted.

Now to the testing: If I connect the 240 volt winding to the pump motor (generator) and with the motor being driven I can short out the 240 volt side (the side connected to the generator and I really can't tell it makes any difference. However if I short out the secondary (the 24 volt side) it does slow the motor down a little bit and increases the current draw slightly. I only have an analogue meter on my power supply but it looks like the current goes up from about 4 amps to maybe 4.25 amps. A barely noticeable change.

If I connect the 480 volt winding to the generator I get basically the same thing. I then connected the 24 volt winding to the generator and with it connected this way I don't see or hear any change whether the input or output is shorted or not. I can light a 7.5 watt 120 volt bulb to about half brightness with it connected to the 240 volt side. The voltage getting to the bulb is only about 78 volts so I know it is putting out a small amount of real power. I can also use a bridge and charge some caps but they wanted to go higher than they were rated so I went back to just measuring the AC power going to the bulb as a reference.

I think the reason I may not be getting the results you are getting is because the motor is pretty worn and it may be that under load the rotor is rubbing the stator and causing some problems. I need to order a new one or try to find one not as worn as this one. The other one I have is even worse. I can feel it rubbing the stator all the time.

It is interesting that it doesn't seem to make any difference whether the output is shorted or open when connected with the 24 volt side going to the motor/generator.

Later,
Carroll

[erfinder]

Mostly aimed at Citfta but anyone who would like to comment. I have been looking into many things along the way. What has gleaned my attention is the ability of two signals to share the same transport. When thoes two signals hit each other, they add but go on. On the whole, the "transport" or wire will see a pulse of the addition. I have proved this with two signal gens and a scope.
If you have these two signals timed to say 60 hz then a load will see the signal as a 60 cycle source. Then a load will see a 60hz source even if it in the beginning was not. Might be noisy but still 60 hz.

trying to find out if my line of thinking is true. Comments?

Early in my experimenting I stumbled onto the same phenomena. Specifically, I realized that EMF of proper phase and polarity can be projected at one another along a common wave guide, when the waves collide they "can" be made to add, resulting in a new wave which exists only for the period during which these two waves are transitioning through one another. The amplitude of the new "temporary" wave is equal to the sum of the two waves. One of the more interesting things I noted is that collision doesn't result in the destruction of the waves themselves, like waves on water which are travelling at different speeds, the two waves move through one another, the two behaving as if they are totally unaware of the existence of the other except at the instance when the two pass through each other.

To generate these waves, I find it advantageous in setting up an imbalance within the circuit impedance, a concept I call impedance mismatching. A wave sent out by the transmitter encounters an abrupt change in system impedance, this results in the transmitted wave being partially or completely reflected back in the direction of the transmitter, as the reflected wave is returning, the transmitter fires off another wave which meets with the returning wave. At the instant of perfect alignment of the two colliding waves, one experiences an increase in amplitude.

All that to say this, I know where you are coming from and hope that you continue your investigations in this direction!


Regards

[thaelin]

Mostly aimed at Citfta but anyone who would like to comment. I have been looking into many things along the way. What has gleaned my attention is the ability of two signals to share the same transport. When thoes two signals hit each other, they add but go on. On the whole, the "transport" or wire will see a pulse of the addition. I have proved this with two signal gens and a scope.
If you have these two signals timed to say 60 hz then a load will see the signal as a 60 cycle source. Then a load will see a 60hz source even if it in the beginning was not. Might be noisy but still 60 hz.

trying to find out if my line of thinking is true. Comments?

[shylo]

Thanks for the reply Gene, I do read on that all about circuits, but it's hard to grasp the concepts through reading. I do better with hands on.
Inductance to me is sort of like capacity?
Impeadence is like resistance?
What I meant by adding a load behind was trying different loads.
Sorry that may not be clear, the 40watt killed the motor, the 100watt didn't light but it increased the rpm at the same time reducing input??
Would the 40 with say another 40 and a 20 in series produce the same results as just the 100?
The math says yes right?
Sorry not trying to waste anybodies time ,just when I see stuff like that it makes me want to try all kinds of different things.
artv

[citfta]

Hello again Gene,


Well I got the pump motor mounted and connected to a 12 volt motor. I do not have a way yet to accurately measure the rpm but I still wanted to do some quick tests.

First some data to consider. The impedance of the pump motor winding is 126.6 mh. The transformer can be wired for 240 or 480 volts. The secondary is only 24 volts with no center tap.

240 v primary impedance 1.293 H with 24 volt winding open
240 v primary impedance 35.6 mh with 24 volt winding shorted
480 v primary impedance 4.86 H with 24 volt winding open
480 v primary impedance 142.6 mh with 24 volt winding shorted
24 v secondary impedance 15.1 mh with 240 volt winding open
24 v secondary impedance .42 mh with 240 volt winding shorted.

Now to the testing: If I connect the 240 volt winding to the pump motor (generator) and with the motor being driven I can short out the 240 volt side (the side connected to the generator and I really can't tell it makes any difference. However if I short out the secondary (the 24 volt side) it does slow the motor down a little bit and increases the current draw slightly. I only have an analogue meter on my power supply but it looks like the current goes up from about 4 amps to maybe 4.25 amps. A barely noticeable change.

If I connect the 480 volt winding to the generator I get basically the same thing. I then connected the 24 volt winding to the generator and with it connected this way I don't see or hear any change whether the input or output is shorted or not. I can light a 7.5 watt 120 volt bulb to about half brightness with it connected to the 240 volt side. The voltage getting to the bulb is only about 78 volts so I know it is putting out a small amount of real power. I can also use a bridge and charge some caps but they wanted to go higher than they were rated so I went back to just measuring the AC power going to the bulb as a reference.

I think the reason I may not be getting the results you are getting is because the motor is pretty worn and it may be that under load the rotor is rubbing the stator and causing some problems. I need to order a new one or try to find one not as worn as this one. The other one I have is even worse. I can feel it rubbing the stator all the time.

It is interesting that it doesn't seem to make any difference whether the output is shorted or open when connected with the 24 volt side going to the motor/generator.

Later,
Carroll

[genessc]

Yeap, Morins "stuff" is all in Morins head. When he gets to DETAILS he'll sort his own ignorance.

That doesn't really explain the oddity of the inversion of current draw via shorting on a transformer wired up backwards to that particular type of motor tho eh?

The 50watt trafo waveform had some curvature to the waveform but on the 800watt trafo that output waveform was nearly a perfect triangle wave.

To be sure I haven't done any more with it than I'd shared in the last video. It charges up capacities... probably a pulser could be used to discharge those charged capacities thru another transformer to produce Current pulses maybe that would be sent to recharge the source battery driving the DC motor thats turning the drain pump or something.

There was never a doubt in my mind that Morins methods were questionable. I've dealt with his Type before and they will not stick to a single context, they produce one, then when called out on that one they find a more expensive and harder to locate set of components (ala don smith and metglas) and spin that for a while... and then on to the next ...

It is nice seeing others are aware of it too tho... Quickest way to know is to do.

I'll go check that article out. Thanks for that!

Take care,
Gene

It appears I am not the only one that sees serious problems with the claims made by Gerard Morin. Here is an article written by a respected researcher who also sees problems with Gerard's claims.


Gerard Morin's Free Energy Delusion - Revolution-Green

Respectfully,
Carroll

[genessc]

Hi Artv,
Not sure what you are asking in reference to without you also commenting on the context so I'm familiar with the one you are referencing. I've been thru quite a few contexts and still have others in "play" so this is a needful part of discussing things.

I have tried 100watt 120vac bulb, 220v 100watt bulb, and 40watt 120v bulbs. The two 100 watt bulbs are less of an "impedance match" for the output so they will take the energy in as primarily current and not much volts.

The 40watt bulb was a match for the output impedance and it would cause the input current to drop momentarily but then it would come back up over the original input current as the 40watt lamp tried to light up fill brightness which reflected to much drag on the prime mover, in this case the 12vdc motor, and my dc supply only can give 3amps max current, so it drops volts while trying to push the 3amps till it all stalls out. (If I attach that to an non-current limited supply, the dc drive motor should take that input as more current at the set 12vdc being fed into the drive motor to take up the effort of maintaining the rpm under load, so its already pretty tight with the bulb only being 40watt rated and input at 12vdc and 3amps is 36watts so if the input goes up more than about half an amp then the efficiency drops back below 100%, and I suspect it Would go up by at least an amp which at 4amps 12vdc into that 12vdc motor would likely ruin it. I ruined the first of this same motor by to much current so been trying to not ruin the second one.)

"And what about putting a load behind the bulb?"

The above question you asked shows you're not really grasping that the load is the bulb. Anything put behind the bulb, would in theory be in parallel and thus be additional Current at the set volts output that would be drawn. Perhaps you can clarify what you meant?

All LOADS require some volts AND amps or they won't be using "power" which is Watts. Watts is Volts times Amps.

I would recommend a website like all-about-circuits.com or something like that to go review basics of power. You can teach yourself the answer to these questions by taking the time to read up on the concepts that have been proven over the last 150 years by thousands of engineers. One has to become familiar with the basics so that the terms and comprehensions are able to be shared mutually with both parties sharing the same terms for how whats being reviewed together is working.

Cheers!
Gene

Hi Gene, I don't understand most of what you were talking about.
You must of tried even larger bulbs?
And what about putting a load behind the bulb?
The bulb needs amps ..? The motor needs voltage...?
Is it splitting it up some how, the bulb wants more amps, so the motor gets more voltage?
Is that even possible?
Excellent video btw.
Thanks artv

[citfta]

It appears I am not the only one that sees serious problems with the claims made by Gerard Morin. Here is an article written by a respected researcher who also sees problems with Gerard's claims.


Gerard Morin's Free Energy Delusion - Revolution-Green

Respectfully,
Carroll

[shylo]

Hi Gene, I don't understand most of what you were talking about.
You must of tried even larger bulbs?
And what about putting a load behind the bulb?
The bulb needs amps ..? The motor needs voltage...?
Is it splitting it up some how, the bulb wants more amps, so the motor gets more voltage?
Is that even possible?
Excellent video btw.
Thanks artv