Open discussion for projects on this forum.

[bistander]

Permanent Magnet Synchronous Generator Design

Hi Turion,

https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/7/11/7105/htm

This is an interesting paper from 2014 on PMSG design. Physically I think it is about same size as your large genny, I assume the one you claim 1800 watts out/300 watts in. It is designed for slower speed and bit more power. But notice the design process.

Also notice the test rig in figure #13. It looks similar to equipment which I used years ago when developing motors and generators. Ah, the good old days, when men proved their claims.

Regards,

bi

[Iamnuts]

Sorry.

Turion and some others,
I hate to say this but I believe bistander's physics to be sound.
Messing with motors and generators can give encouraging results but,
as I've tried to explain before, you're only altering the efficiency UNLESS
you're getting over 100%.
These days motor designers are managing 99% efficiency in some of
the larger motors running optimum load.
In essence C. O. P. 'is basically concentrating energy from a reservoir
of low grade energy into a useable but much smaller quantity of higher grade
energy. Example, thousands of gallons of ground water into 50. gallons of
warm water in your domestic tank.
I'm willing to say who I am, just PM. me.
I'm also up to being told that everything I say is utter crap, if I'm wrong
I'm wrong and apologise.
John.

[bistander]

The trouble with you

See? All of this is crap. It has nothing to do with 1800 watts output from a generator using 300 watts input. It's your way of avoiding to issue. Prove your claim of 1800 watts output from a generator using 300 watts input.

[bistander]

My job?

Bi,

All your effort?

Why?

Your time?

It makes no sense...

Who would even care?

Unless it' s your job...

It is isn't it?

Yes...

We all know...

Hi Sputins,

I like energy, power, physics, electric machinery and continue to research and learn. Along my journey I attempt to help a few and correct basic misconceptions or in some cases, expose fraud or scam. Not many, but some folks do appreciate my efforts and tell me so. It could just take one light bulb in one guy's mind going off to bring the world saving energy invention out of the mist. Maybe I can help that guy, or maybe that guy is me next week, or maybe it is Turion with his 1800/300 genny. Here, just trying to get Turion to come clean.

Not sure what you mean by job.

Thanks for chiming in.

bi

[Sputins]

Bi,

All your effort?

Why?

Your time?

It makes no sense...

Who would even care?

Unless it' s your job...

It is isn't it?

Yes...

We all know...

[bistander]

Know what I'm talking about

Hi Turion,

That is incorrect. I know exactly what I'm talking about. You don't know what I'm talking about. This is what I meant when I said I didn't want to educate you so you could understand what's really happening.

I never said you couldn't eliminate cogging. And yes, you can see the results on your test bench. What I'm telling you, and is fact supported by numerous authors and texts, is that cogging or the elimination of cogging makes no difference to the generator under load at operating speed.

bi

[bistander]

Requested experiment

Turion,

Mr. Potato Head says such an experiment as you described would only demonstrate braking torque due to Eddy currents and core loss. You would need a sensitive torque transducer to actually see the cogging torque. If the drive motor isn't too noisy you might be able to see current ripple caused by cogging. But you knew that, right?

Regards,

bi

[bistander]

Wrong

...
You got burned on the 3 Battery system.
You got burned on speed up under load
You got burned on magnetic cogging
...

BS. I am right on all three counts. I just don't want to educate you enough for you to understand why. You don't even try to learn the real science

I never wanted to get into the battery systems with you. I know it's a loser. I avoided it for so long but mentioned it once quoting a Jeff Dove post. My mistake. I never claimed you lied about it.

Go back a few years of forum posts and read where I participated in an analysis of Thain Hiens' claims. I'm not searching for it and don't feel the need to prove anything to anybody about it. It doesn't do anything for performance or efficiency at load. Consider that my opinion. I don't care. I know you're mistaken about it but don't recall calling you a liar about it.

Cogging. Again. It, or the elimination of it, makes no difference at speed and at load. Ever notice the cogging torque on the rotor pulls it to the center of the core? Off to one side, it pulls CW. Off to the other side, it pulls CCW. So when the generator is rotating at normal speed with normal load, cogging contributes equal CW and CCW torque. Or in other words, net cogging torque is zero. This means it does not affect the average current or voltage, or average input torque or RPM. Cogging at speed and load appears as torque ripple which is annoying due to noise and vibration, but is not a factor in power conversion performance or efficiency except a possible fraction of a percent loss due to minor loop hysteresis. And again, I say you're wrong in your cogging statements, which isn't calling you a liar.

But, again, all that is distraction, or strawman tactics to avoid the real issue with me. You're lying and fraudulent about having a proven 1800 watt output/300 watt input generator. Prove that. Be a man and back up your statement.

bi

[bistander]

The old speed up

No, this is what I said.

... So what if shorting a coil causes an increase in speed. That has nothing to do with it. Output power will not exceed input power. If Thaine Heinz had anything of value, why hasn't it been commercialized? He's got nothing of any value.
...

And the fact that he doesn't own a patent on it would enhance the opportunity for commercialization by others. The fact that it has been around for so long with no takers indicates its perceived value. Zilch.

We hashed through this years ago when bromikey was promoting him. I thought it was dead and buried. It should be.

bi

[bistander]

Just distraction

Turion,

All you're doing is avoiding the issue. The 1800 watt output/300 watt input machine is the only thing that maters. It is the falsehood you continue to insist you have. I know that is untrue. Prove me wrong. You can not. I don't care about your tricks and methods used to build your generator. I only care about the performance claim: 1800 watt output power with 300 watts input power.

Regards,

bi

[Iamnuts]

[bistander]

Cogging

...They decrease the amp draw of the motor significantly and increase the output of the generator. ...

I told you the fact (truth) about this and backed it up with a Wikipedia page. You don't believe me and that's alright. How about you changing the wiki article to reflect your version of machine output at speed and load? That ought to bring in few expert opinions.

[bistander]

All I want is proof of Turion's generator claim

Forget about cogging, batteries, splitting potential, and other stuff. All I am interested in is the 1800 watt generator which uses less than 300 watts input to produce the 1800 watts output power as Turion claims he has or had repeatedly.

Without that proof, what I have said about Mr. Turion stands on its own.

I disagree with you guys about those other topics, but they're not worth arguing over. The 1800W out/300W in generator makes all that other stuff irrelevant. Turion has stated numerous times that generator is independent of the battery system and can be run with a standard motor.

Look back on this in a few years and tell me who was right.

Regards,

bi

[citfta]

Yep. That's what I've been saying. Same goes for cogging.



From: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogging_torque

Niether acceleration under load or cogging have any significant effect on generator performance at operational speed and load.

Regards,

bi

Sorry Bi,

But our tests have proven both of those claims to be false. But since you insist on changing what is being said to suit your own purposes you won't see those results.

You keep taking what Dave says out of context. He clearly said that when used in the 3 battery system the motor produces more power than consumed. That is because the power used by the motor gets recycled back into the 3rd battery. And if you go back and read what Dave said it is clear that he meant exactly that and nothing else.

You are only making yourself look bad when you insist on calling Dave and Matt frauds. There are several of us that have proven beyond any doubt that the three battery system does extend the run time available from the batteries.

And even some skeptics have seen that the Matt modified motor does increase significantly the charging of the 3rd battery. I personally did the testing for Dave on the neutralizing of the magnetic cogging and saw how that caused the input power to drop when done properly.

I have not seen his large generator run, but I believe Dave about the input and output power because everything he and Matt have told me so far has been proven correct.

What is truly amazing is the personal attacks on a couple of guys that have very generously shared what they have learned. They have never asked for a dime from anyone that I am aware of. And I know Dave and Matt both have spent thousands of hours and thousands of dollars to get where they are now in their knowledge. They both have my total respect and admiration for their dedication and generosity.

Respectfully,
Carroll

[bistander]

Same for cogging

Yep. That's what I've been saying. Same goes for cogging.

Cogging torque
Cogging torque of electrical motors is the [torque] due to the interaction between the permanent magnets of the rotor and the stator slots of a Permanent Magnet (PM) machine. It is also known as detent or 'no-current' torque. This torque is position dependent and its periodicity per revolution depends on the number of magnetic poles and the number of teeth on the stator. Cogging torque is an undesirable component for the operation of such a motor. It is especially prominent at lower speeds, with the symptom of jerkiness. Cogging torque results in torque as well as speed ripple; however, at high speed the motor moment of inertia filters out the effect of cogging torque.

From: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogging_torque

Niether acceleration under load or cogging have any significant effect on generator performance at operational speed and load.

Regards,

bi