Open discussion for projects on this forum.

[mbrownn]

Hi Carroll, I am seeing something similar.If I use only one magnet for the stator, my amp draw is at 4. If I place the other magnet stator on top the speed increases and the amp draw drops to 2.

The second magnet gives a good return path for the flux so the speed goes up and generates more BEMF. The BEMF is what limits the current.

If I bring a laminated core instead of the 2nd stator magnet, it also increases rpm and drops the amps.

Its the same as with 2 magnets your getting the BEMF. There should be some difference because of air gaps etc but the principle is the same.

The original motor only had 2 brushes, I put 4 brushes on using 2 for input and using the other 2 for collecting. The output is 14vdc after going through a bridge. My input is an 18volt drill battery. Also if I put a magnet on the magnet stator can ,the output of the collectors goes up, but I don't see an increase in consumption.

I would need a lot more detail about your device to give you a good explanation.

If I hook a little motor to the output brushes it runs fast and strong , it causes my input draw to go up,and slows rpm but only for about 20 seconds. Then it returns to normal speed and draw like it doesn't even know the little motor is there.

At a guess, it sounds like your getting some sort of transformer action like in UFO's device but as the current stabilises the transformer action stops.

And this is with Mbrownns' wind 12-6 1-7 ...the whole armature filled. But every 2 coils share the same commutator section, so every other comm section is blank.
artv

I would like to see what you mean about sharing the commutator section.

The BEMF occurs in my armature, just the same as yours but the difference is I have a powered field coil with no BEMF, instead of a magnet.

Is this the 90 degree setup?

[citfta]

Thanks guys,

Always good to get some ideas from others who are working on similar projects. I'll think things over for a while and then decide what I want to try next. I think I will look for another one or two of these motors. With the removable magnets they are going to be easy to modify and try new ideas.

Later,
Carroll

[shylo]

Hi Carroll, I am seeing something similar.If I use only one magnet for the stator, my amp draw is at 4. If I place the other magnet stator on top the speed increases and the amp draw drops to 2.
If I bring a laminated core instead of the 2nd stator magnet, it also increases rpm and drops the amps.
The original motor only had 2 brushes, I put 4 brushes on using 2 for input and using the other 2 for collecting. The output is 14vdc after going through a bridge. My input is an 18volt drill battery. Also if I put a magnet on the magnet stator can ,the output of the collectors goes up, but I don't see an increase in consumption.
If I hook a little motor to the output brushes it runs fast and strong , it causes my input draw to go up,and slows rpm but only for about 20 seconds. Then it returns to normal speed and draw like it doesn't even know the little motor is there.
And this is with Mbrownns' wind 12-6 1-7 ...the whole armature filled. But every 2 coils share the same commutator section, so every other comm section is blank.
artv

[mbrownn]

Well I finally got a little time to play around with one of the scooter motors I got. It has 4 poles with magnets top and bottom one polarity and the side magnets the opposite polarity. It also has 4 brushes with the top and bottom brushes connected together and the side brushes connected together. It has the conventional wind I have seen in the other scooter motors I have taken apart. Coming from a com segment the wire goes to a nearby pole and then is wrapped around 3 poles and brought back to the next com segment and then continues on by moving over one pole from the first one and wrapping around the next three and so on. This means all coils are connected in series with each coil section overlapping the one before it by 2 poles. I also found a nice surprise when I took the motor apart. This motor has the magnets held in place by a plastic housing. So you can easily remove the magnets or swap them around to try different configurations.

I was going to rewind it when I took it apart but after studying it for a while I decided to try something else first in the interest of learning. I realized I could disconnect the brushes and bring to the outside two of the brush leads. Two of them were already outside since that is how power is fed into the motor.

I drilled a couple of holes in the end cap and brought out the other two leads. I then put it back together. I powered the original two leads which meant I really was only powering 1/4 of the armature. I then checked the voltage on the other two leads to see what I had. I found the voltage was close to the supply voltage but not quite there. That made sense because I was actually measuring what was the BEMF on the powered windings.

I then tried adding some external magnets to the section of the housing where the armature was acting like a generator. I was able to raise the output of the generator side to about 2 volts higher than my supply voltage. This did cause an increase in my supply current but I was kind of surprised I could even get it to do that with no modifications to the armature.

Because the coils are all connected in series I could not feed the output back to the input without creating a short which caused the current to go way up and the motor to almost stall. I am thinking at this point a rewind of the armature might make an interesting device for further study.

Any suggestions or comments are welcome. I am debating what kind of wind I want to try. Since I can move the magnets around I should be able to get it to run with the simple wind Mbrownn has shown us. With fixed magnets of north south north south I could not do that because the simple wind would have created attraction and repulsion at the same time and the motor would have stalled.

Later,
Carroll

Try my MADMAG (interesting motor) Use a single magnet set in attraction and a piece of iron or steel set at 90 degrees. Later you could replace the iron with a shoe and coil.

First run it with a standard armature and then with a simple armature and do torque and speed comparisons.

If you find it interesting, split the case and ad a second magnet and shoe. also try the recovery from both armatures and finally the feeding the generated current through the armature.

A slice out of a piece of pipe would work until you make a shoe.

[Turion]

Thanks Carroll,
Good to be back. Went to AZ to help my mom out for a few weeks. Going back in a couple to finish up. But thought I might have time to do some things with the motor in the mean time. Got a pretty heaping plate of projects right now, but better to be too busy than too bored I guess.

Dave

[citfta]

Hi Dave,

It is an MS1020 made by Hong Yuan Co. Ltd. The other motor I modified per Matt's instructions was a MY1016 and it had 4 magnets. But they were epoxied in. Good to see you back on the forum.

Later,
Carroll

[Turion]

Carroll,
Which model Razor Scooter motor was that? I think all the ones I have only have 2 magnets in them,but will have to check.

Dave

[citfta]

Well I finally got a little time to play around with one of the scooter motors I got. It has 4 poles with magnets top and bottom one polarity and the side magnets the opposite polarity. It also has 4 brushes with the top and bottom brushes connected together and the side brushes connected together. It has the conventional wind I have seen in the other scooter motors I have taken apart. Coming from a com segment the wire goes to a nearby pole and then is wrapped around 3 poles and brought back to the next com segment and then continues on by moving over one pole from the first one and wrapping around the next three and so on. This means all coils are connected in series with each coil section overlapping the one before it by 2 poles. I also found a nice surprise when I took the motor apart. This motor has the magnets held in place by a plastic housing. So you can easily remove the magnets or swap them around to try different configurations.

I was going to rewind it when I took it apart but after studying it for a while I decided to try something else first in the interest of learning. I realized I could disconnect the brushes and bring to the outside two of the brush leads. Two of them were already outside since that is how power is fed into the motor.

I drilled a couple of holes in the end cap and brought out the other two leads. I then put it back together. I powered the original two leads which meant I really was only powering 1/4 of the armature. I then checked the voltage on the other two leads to see what I had. I found the voltage was close to the supply voltage but not quite there. That made sense because I was actually measuring what was the BEMF on the powered windings.

I then tried adding some external magnets to the section of the housing where the armature was acting like a generator. I was able to raise the output of the generator side to about 2 volts higher than my supply voltage. This did cause an increase in my supply current but I was kind of surprised I could even get it to do that with no modifications to the armature.

Because the coils are all connected in series I could not feed the output back to the input without creating a short which caused the current to go way up and the motor to almost stall. I am thinking at this point a rewind of the armature might make an interesting device for further study.

Any suggestions or comments are welcome. I am debating what kind of wind I want to try. Since I can move the magnets around I should be able to get it to run with the simple wind Mbrownn has shown us. With fixed magnets of north south north south I could not do that because the simple wind would have created attraction and repulsion at the same time and the motor would have stalled.

Later,
Carroll

[mbrownn]

Dot totally give up on that wind, feed it less volts and the power goes down. As for the speed, that has a lot to do with the design of the pole it is acting on and the angle it rotates through while being powered. A 32 segment commutator and narrower brushes would have helped.

[citfta]

Hi Art,

Thanks for taking the time to try that wind. I expected it to be very power hungry because it should have almost no BEMF which would allow it to use a lot of current. I am surprised that the torque was low. I expected it to be stronger than that.

With all the rainy weather and other obligations I have had my yard work has gotten way behind. I am staying very busy trying to get caught up on that and do a few tests using the pump motor coils as a generator. That still looks promising but no OU yet.

Later,
Carroll

[shylo]

Hi Carroll, I didn't have any good luck with that wind, I found it to be weak and very hungry.
Currently trying mbrownns' 12-6, less amps and more speed.
When I get it where I want it , I want to put an N-machine on the shaft to see how that works.
Tesla said it was a very efficient generator.
Just thought I'd let you know.
artv

[shylo]

I don't think the way armatures are made with stator arrangements , in all the motors I've taken apart, is the right way to do it.
With 16 comm sections it should be 9 pole faces on the armature, and a 4 pole stator, that way you can bring the fields closer. Wind three drive coils, spanning 3 faces each.
Just a thought.
artv

[mbrownn]

Ok thanks for the explanations , Lets see if I understand, so by going through the transformer ,it adds resistance to the circuit, E=IxR, increasing R reduces I? And this reduces power P=ExI ,that's why the motor slows down?
I want to measure the resistance of the circuit ,do I just measure at the battery terminals, is that the proper way?

You can do that to measure the ohmic resistance. The impedance or inductance of the coil, also creates a resistance so just measuring the resistance you will find the figures dont add up.


To Mbrownn, I have no collector brushes yet ,but am going to make some.
The brushes in the video were just a quick mount ,gonna make a better setup.
I have used collector brushes in the past as you stated where the collector is in contact with the input for an instant, but found that in that design you're really just sipping at your power supply.
As for the cut stator housing ,I'm going to try and mount opposite pole magnets of the one underneath , but in separated strips as many as I can fit in, to see how that works.
artv[/QUOTE]It all depends upon the circuit of the collector brushes, some circuits will sip at the supply, others wont.

Splitting the case is for when you have a 4 pole motor with a 2 pole armature, such as in my motors. The field poles have to be somewhat less than 90 degrees wide. This may work against you with the armature in the video.

[shylo]

Ok thanks for the explanations , Lets see if I understand, so by going through the transformer ,it adds resistance to the circuit, E=IxR, increasing R reduces I? And this reduces power P=ExI ,that's why the motor slows down?
I want to measure the resistance of the circuit ,do I just measure at the battery terminals, is that the proper way?

To Mbrownn, I have no collector brushes yet ,but am going to make some.
The brushes in the video were just a quick mount ,gonna make a better setup.
I have used collector brushes in the past as you stated where the collector is in contact with the input for an instant, but found that in that design you're really just sipping at your power supply.
As for the cut stator housing ,I'm going to try and mount opposite pole magnets of the one underneath , but in separated strips as many as I can fit in, to see how that works.
artv

[citfta]

Hi Art.

I had some time this morning to watch the video again. I didn't understand the first time that the transformer was connected in series with the motor. I agree with the explanations Matt and Mbrownn gave. It is interesting that you only have two coils on the armature yet it is drawing 5 amps and seems to be getting to some pretty good rpms. It appears you have a motor that is generating a pretty low BEMF. That is why it is revving so high when fed with full voltage and current.

I really need to get busy and wind a motor with all poles wound like you have done so I can test it. Right now very busy trying to catch up on yard work between the rains. The grass and bushes have gotten out of control. LOL.

Carroll