Open discussion for projects on this forum.

[citfta]

Wow Dave,

Another good find. You can clearly see in the second picture that there are screws through the case every 90 degrees so that would be for mounting four poles. Plus it looks like there are spaces for four brushes. And the price is half the cost of the other place. Thanks for the good links. Maybe mbrownn can give us his opinion about this one. But with the end caps being non-magnetic and four poles it should be just what we need it I understood all he has posted about the proper type of motor.

Carroll

[Turion]

I've contacted them to find out which are two pole and which are four pole, but so far I haven't heard back. I figured if nothing else it would give us some part numbers to search on eBay for a good deal. Here's one: Cub Cadet Tractor Starter Generator Off A 100 | eBay

New Starter Generator Club Car FE290 FE350 DS Series 1996 2006 1018294 01 | eBay

Dave

[citfta]

Hey Dave,

Thanks for the link. I wish they gave more information about them. They don't really say whether they are two pole or four pole. Some of them look to have four screws in the case like they would have if it was a four pole motor/generator. I think I have a line on one of the Cub Cadet ones for free. If I get it then I will know if it is four pole or not. The nice thing about these is since they are used as generators also they have good bearings in them instead of bushings like a car starter motor. The one for a club car is the one that looks like it might have 4 screws in the case to hold four poles. But it is over $200. A little out of my price range right now. But thanks to your link I now know what to look for and may be able to find some junk ones from a golf cart repair place.

Later,
Carroll

[Turion]

For anyone interested
Starter-Generators, Small Engine,

Dave

[citfta]

Hi again mbrownn,

When I wrote about the higher current draw I was referring to a motor/generator built in the "traditional" way. We had several of them where I worked. They were used mostly to convert from 120 volts 60 Hz to 120 volts at 400 Hz for testing military equipment.

When it comes to the Lockridge or any research and testing on it I consider you much more qualified than myself or actually anyone else on this forum. I believe you are the only person on here actively involved in working on it.

I remember that back in the late 1960s and into the early 1970s the Cub Cadet riding lawn and garden type tractors had a Koehler engine on them that had a combination starter/generator. Power from the battery was applied to the motor and it turned the engine over through a belt around the flywheel. After the engine started then the motor/generator became the generator for recharging the battery. I don't remember if those were two or four poles. If they were four poles they would probably make a good candidate for working with. I will have to see if my dad might still have one of those lying around somewhere. (He never gets rid of anything. )

Any time you want to move this discussion over to your thread that will be fine. Although this thread is for discussing almost anything of a technical nature.

Thanks again for your input.
Carroll

[mbrownn]

Hi artv,

Yes you can drive one coil and take power from another coil. And as you posted they will oppose each other. This is basically what mbrownn is working on. The problem is how to overcome the losses so as to be able to use the power coming from the coil without causing the power driving the other coil from going too high. According to some pretty well established evidence the Lockridge device was able to supply enough power to run itself and also light 300 watts of bulbs. (I think I remember that right. mbrownn can correct me if I am wrong on that). You have to remember that as you take power from the one coil the current has to go up on the driving coil to produce the extra torque to keep the armature turning under the extra load.

You really need to get you some small motors so you can play around with using one as a generator and the other as the motor driving the generator. If you can find a Radio Shack near you they are closing a bunch of stores and you can get a lot of stuff there really cheap. I picked up several transformers the other day for the price of one of them. Actually working with them will help you understand them much better.

Later,
Carroll

[mbrownn]

That needs to be a 4 pole shunt wound motor, correct?

Ideally you use the old VW generator, but a four pole brushed motor is a start. Ideally you want an even number of slots in the armature and devisable by 5. The commutator would ideally have double the number of segments as slots. series wound makes things a little easier than shunt. but removable pole shoes are important.

Hi Mbrown, I don't understand your drawing. The orange is the field coil but it is turned slightly to the left so the right hand leg is closer to the armature?
Why would the lines of flux travel 3 pole faces away, is that supposed to represent a coil wound on the armature?
Without any coils on the armature the flux lines produced by the field coil would go straight into the iron core from one leg of the coil , and return to the other leg of the coil?
If the rules are right it should simply be a matter of putting 2 coils in opposition on the same amount of pole faces ,thus they will cancel each others drag , you still need a way to drive it though.

Yes the pink parts are the armature winding that is in attraction with the orange field winding, but I dont know what you mean by turned to the left. The flux moves from the field coil, via attraction to the armature, and through the armature coil, then it takes the easiest route back to the opposite pole of the field coil. As the two active coils are wound in series and in attraction the magnetic attraction to the unpowered shoe is strong, and the flux pulls the armature round in a clockwise direction. Using this method keeps all the flux in the iron which is important for efficiency in this motor.

Just using two coils and this 90 degree arrangement dramatically reduces BEMF in the powered field coil, and I suspect a little in the armature. Because of this the need to oppose the BEMF with an additional coil is dramatically reduced. The BEMF could be reduced further but ill leave that for another time.

You could actually replace the field coil with a permanent magnet but I haven't tested that.

If you use a standard armature, it still works but not as well and has more BEMF.

It is the acute angle that the flux is bent around, that wants to take a straighter path, that actually gives the torque in my opinion, and attraction is the mode that allows that to happen.

This is only a part of how I interpret the Lockridge to work. The fact that we do not know how the original lockridge device worked, and as it is so different to anything I have seen anyone else's posts, I consider it my own work. I did this by reverse engineering the device, staying as close as is possible to what is known about it. As a result I no longer refer to it as "the lockridge" but as a motor/generator device. It is a work in progress and I don't have all the answers, but I am happy to share what I do know.

If anyone wants to disagree with my interpretation thats fine, but please stay polite. I think if we want to discuss it in greater detail we should do it on the Interesting Motor thread where I posted the most information.

[citfta]

Hi artv,

Yes you can drive one coil and take power from another coil. And as you posted they will oppose each other. This is basically what mbrownn is working on. The problem is how to overcome the losses so as to be able to use the power coming from the coil without causing the power driving the other coil from going too high. According to some pretty well established evidence the Lockridge device was able to supply enough power to run itself and also light 300 watts of bulbs. (I think I remember that right. mbrownn can correct me if I am wrong on that). You have to remember that as you take power from the one coil the current has to go up on the driving coil to produce the extra torque to keep the armature turning under the extra load.

You really need to get you some small motors so you can play around with using one as a generator and the other as the motor driving the generator. If you can find a Radio Shack near you they are closing a bunch of stores and you can get a lot of stuff there really cheap. I picked up several transformers the other day for the price of one of them. Actually working with them will help you understand them much better.

Later,
Carroll

[Midaztouch]

greetings

Citfa and company, what's yours game?
You so blindly wrote all kind of rubbish about DC asymmetric motors,
and yet here you are, in this forum. It seems that it is too late for you,
considering your ages, to change your mind, nothing wrong whit that, just add to that some respect
towards true researchers nothing more.
With these conventional BS know you're not going anywhere.
It's like you're stuck in the mud.
I can only figure it out what a bunch of **strubating monkeys can learn something from you.

I'm steel newbie here, but you people, in a few posts here are so offensive.
Even worse than one who just copied someones work and started new thread.
So funny.

.

Padova

IC we have a newbie here. I was one too you know, a baby as a matter of fact. I bought one of those Imperial motors almost 2 yrs ago for my electric EV build. I followed that thread DAILY and took notes... For over 2yrs.

I paid for my motor with shipping to Japan. I'm going to use it anyway I see fit. And as you can see, I'm not doing it the way they do it... You should be asking yourself why is there Only 1 person working on the 5 pole... that's it, one person!?
No other motor, just the tiny irregular useless 5pole only! And now he's finished. WTF

Over 20 members have that huge expensive 28pole 45lbs Imperial motor! Lately they are starting to show up! They want answers and growing inpatient!

If you had a huge thread and people spent REAL money, Some members are in the hole for $$$$$! Would you be busting you butt to make things right and prove your work!? ... Think about it!

I'm a small time builder who wanted to build an electric motor for my motorcycle. I just got tired of the runaround and same old info a different day. AKA he is stalling!.. I'm nobody special but I'm trying to work with what I paid for. And I'm doing what I thought was interesting and new.

Don't open your mouth about personal things you know nothing about!... After 3yrs, still on the 5pole and making the same CAD a different way! #SMH

Your in for a rude awakening
Midaz

[shylo]

Hi Mbrown, I don't understand your drawing. The orange is the field coil but it is turned slightly to the left so the right hand leg is closer to the armature?
Why would the lines of flux travel 3 pole faces away, is that supposed to represent a coil wound on the armature?
Without any coils on the armature the flux lines produced by the field coil would go straight into the iron core from one leg of the coil , and return to the other leg of the coil?
If the rules are right it should simply be a matter of putting 2 coils in opposition on the same amount of pole faces ,thus they will cancel each others drag , you still need a way to drive it though.

Carroll, If you have 2 generating coils but only load 1 at a time only 1 is causing drag, the other can be motored by a seperate supply, causing an opposition. Can you not use the 2 oppositions to counter each other?
artv

[citfta]

Hi again padova,

I am really sorry about your reading disability. You apparently can't find where I wrote any rubbish about the asymmetrical motor. So you pretend you don't want to discuss it. Then why did you come to my thread and start this discussion? Since you can't back up your false claims then your posts have no validity. You might have to look up that big word.

As for staying away from you. What a totally dumb thing to post. YOU came here. I didn't hunt you up and try to give you a hard time. If you don't like what I post then YOU go away. I was a member of this forum long before Dufo showed up and will probably be here long after he is gone.

Because you have proven you can't carry on an intelligent discussion anything you post in this thread from now on will be ignored. Go back and play with your building blocks and leave real discussions for the grownups.

There is no any burden. You know what you wrote. I won't discuss with you. You and your company, please stay away from me, as far as possible. As long as you are saying that the BEMF actually is a good thing for the motor.

regards

Carroll

[citfta]

Thanks mbrownn for an excellent post. I am learning a few things from you. Please continue any time you want to add to this thread. No matter how much we know we can always learn more and I appreciate your time spent writing up your posts. I did go back and read the thread about a different kind of motor. It was very interesting. I have started looking for a suitable motor to do some experimenting with. That needs to be a 4 pole shunt wound motor, correct? Those appear to be a little bit hard to find but I am pretty good at finding surplus and other stuff on the internet so I will keep looking.

Thanks again.
Carroll

[mbrownn]

Hi Carroll, If a coil produces bemf ,...It will have a polarity,
Why can't you rebound waves off each other?
I still can't see how any of this is possible.

To understand BEMF you must think of it as purely a voltage with no current, because of this it has no magnetic effects. Most motors have significant amounts of BEMF and it is used as a way to control motor speed. This is done by it opposing the applied current so if you apply 12v and have 6v of BEMF your effective voltage is only 6v. The current that flows through the motor is what you would get with 6v under ohms law but you are consuming power at 12v.

Remember motor torque is based on current and the number of turns, voltage not being part of this simple equation. Yes voltage is inevitable because you have to overcome resistance.

If you have an open circuit generator coil it causes no drag on the armature, the same can be said of a coil that is blocked by a diode or a higher voltage in the opposite direction. This way BEMF does not cause any extra drag on the armature.

If your motor has BEMF of 6v, you can use a generator coil that generates 6v set to oppose the back emf to cancel it out but it does not solve the problem unless the applied voltage and current passes through it, but now you have the drag instead of BEMF. This is why it is a problem. I have seen some experiments where it appears they have overcome this problem, but I cant confirm it as I have never done it myself.

My approach was to reduce the BEMF in the motor. This means keeping the moving armature coil away from the powered field coil. The problem here is that in modern armatures all the coils on the armature are carrying current and so this cannot be done with a modern armature. On the drawings that show how motors work they show a simplified single coil and it can be done with such a single coil armature. If you build an armature with multiple coils that are not connected to each other, it can also be done provided only one coil is powered at a time and the rest are open circuit.

How did I reduce BEMF?

http://www.energeticforum.com/attachments/renewable-energy/14790d1410747610-interesting-motor-image1-jpg

The orange is the powered field coil, note how it is in the middle of the pole face of the armature and set in attraction to the armature. Note also the coil has been moved 90 degrees to the normal position, this is the asymmetry I use. As there is little movement or bunching of flux at this point there is also little BEMF here. The other field coil shown is open circuit and all other coils and shoes have been removed.

At the 3'oclock position the magnetic return path is where bunching and movement of flux occurs thus causing BEMF in the armature, but if we assume the armature has the same number of turns as the field coil we would expect that the overall BEMF would be half that of a conventional motor. In reality it is less because there is no cutting of lines of flux as in a conventional motor.

Now if we place a coil at the 3'oclock position we can generate voltage and current in exactly the same way as BEMF is produced. Its almost like we have taken the BEMF from the powered field coil and used it as an output.

This is my solution, not perfect I admit, but it does work. On 12v the current would have burned out the motor so I had to reduce it to 3 or 4 volts

Bemf is opposing ,can it be used to drive?

If the number of turns on the output coil are sufficient you can feed the output coil to the input thus reducing the current needed from the supply. It wont eliminate the need for a supply but will reduce it increasing overall efficiency, you can also put a second load in series as the windings of the motor cause little voltage drop, but as you increase the voltage of the output coil you will reduce the current and so the efficiency gain.

Why not have 2 or 200 coils ,the loses , where are they?
Any lose is a form of magnetic interaction, which produces power, if used the right way?
artv

You can have as many coils as you like but each has to be on a separate magnetic circuit for this motor to work. As it started as a four pole motor it makes sense to do the same with the other half of the case, but you have to separate the two halves magnetically to prevent a magnetic short circuit.

The iron losses are only in the armature as this is a DC motor, copper losses follow ohms law. As the iron losses are used up in the motoring calculations, they cant be used in the generator calculations, the same goes for friction and drag so you would expect the generation to be very efficient. This is not the case, In fact the losses are shared between the motoring and the generation making each a little more efficient than if you had a generator bolted to a motor.

You also have torque available from the motor to do work but this is inversely proportional to the generated output.

The generated output efficiency increases with electrical load on the generator, as increased electrical load would draw more current through the motor windings if the output coil is placed in series with the motor coils.

This device would not be an answer to our electrical needs but would be a great advancement on the automotive motors as it is much more efficient.

Just a few things to think about and I hope it helps you understand how you can change things in these types of motor.

[Matthew Jones]

There is no any burden. You know what you wrote. I won't discuss with you. You and your company, please stay away from me, as far as possible. As long as you are saying that the BEMF actually is a good thing for the motor.

regards

Where do these idiots come from? "Stay away from me..." Then go away moron, until you have functional understanding of what is being discussed.
Get an education then contribute.

Matt

[padova]

Hello padova,

By your own admission you are new to this forum. And your small number of posts confirms this. So you really don't know anything about me or anyone else on this forum. I am on this forum because I have seen with my own eyes things that didn't seem possible. I have been actively involved in building and working on many projects on this forum. So you are mistaken about me being stuck in the mud.

Now you have accused me of writing all kinds of rubbish about DC asymmetrical motors. Where did I write that? Show me one quote where I wrote rubbish about DC asymmetrical motors. You say you are not into motors so how do you know what is rubbish and what isn't. You are correct in your assumption that I have a problem with Dufo. I don't have a problem with his motor. My problem with him is because of his attitude and his constant belittling of anyone that doesn't bow down to him.

The burden is now on you. Show me where I wrote any rubbish about DC asymmetrical motors.




Carroll

By the way I don't have any "ages" I have only one. I am 69 years old and have worked on motors for over 50 years.

There is no any burden. You know what you wrote. I won't discuss with you. You and your company, please stay away from me, as far as possible. As long as you are saying that the BEMF actually is a good thing for the motor.

regards