The bistander thread

[bistander]

Okay Guys this is what I ordered.

3 of theses battery's for the 3BS tests:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

This battery for the One battery test:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...0?ie=UTF8&th=1

These 2 chargers:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

And this boost converter:
https://smile.amazon.com/Numerical-R...%2C168&sr=8-18

Anything else I can get off Amazon for this project? Not sure what type of battery terminals the one big battery has any ideas?

Thanks for all the help everyone.

-Altrez

Hi Altrez,
looks like M6, maybe M5 threaded terminals. Appears screws are included.
The Dork unit is called a regulator. It may be different than a boost converter. I'd have to see schematics. A regulator may be isolated whereas a converter will not. The manual won't display on this device. Besides that reviews are not very good. Personally I've been pleased with the product or two I've gotten from them.

regards,
bi

[altrez]

Okay Guys this is what I ordered.

3 of theses battery's for the 3BS tests:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

This battery for the One battery test:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...0?ie=UTF8&th=1

These 2 chargers:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

And this boost converter:
https://smile.amazon.com/Numerical-R...%2C168&sr=8-18

Anything else I can get off Amazon for this project? Not sure what type of battery terminals the one big battery has any ideas?

Thanks for all the help everyone.

-Altrez

[bistander]

Attached is a circuit.
Testing goes like this.
Charge your battery. Let it rest. Measure it with a battery analyzer.
Attach a MATT MODIFIED MOTOR turning another (stock) motor as a generator directly to a battery. Put a full wave bridge on the output of the generator and connect a 12 volt Light bulb to it as a load with a kilowatt meter between the FWB and the load. Run the battery down to 12.2 volts. Let the batteries rest, and measure the batteries. That gives you a baseline output in power to the load as recorded by the kilowatt meter. YOU ALSO NEED TO KEEP TRACK OF THE TIME THE SETUP RAN.

Now charge the battery back up to where it was. Let it rest, and then test and record with a battery analyzer. The problem with comparing one setup to another is the starting energy in the battery and the ending energy in the battery. Hard to accurately compare.

Then run the first attached circuit. You run it until the total OUTPUT to the load is exactly the same as what the previous circuit put out. Then you stop the test, let the batteries rest for the same amount of time you did in the previous test, and measure the batteries with the battery analyzer. Compare what was in the batteries at the end of the two tests where you produced the exact same amount of power to the load as measured by the kilowatt meter. You can also record the time of the test run, but it's NOT important.

The third step, which is far more difficult to measure, is to run the SECOND circuit I am attaching. You can still run the load, but whether the light is brighter than with the previous test, or dimmer is hard to tell. It's had to get an accurate measurement of what goes into the load as voltage and amperage change over the course of the run. You can measure the TEMPERATURE of BOTH the load in the previous test and the load in this test with an infrared heat gun

https://www.amazon.com/Etekcity-Lase...s%2C507&sr=8-3

and log when the temp of the load drops below a certain point that was set as the "run" temperature by the previous test. If the load is running at a higher temperature, you can kind of ASSUME that more energy is going through it. Here is where your recorded TIME for the first run comes in. If the load runs at a higher temperature for longer than it did in the first test, has more power gone through the load?" Some will argue that it has NOT, and may have good reasons for that argument, but I know of no other way to compare when voltages and amperage aren't consistent. You can't simply put a kilowatt meter on it and measure the input to the load. You can't multiply volts times amps when both fluctuate, so unless you have some really good data logging equipment, this is the only way I know to have a reasonable idea. When the run. time exceeds the run time in the baseline test, stop the test, let the batteries rest and measure the battery.

On these circuits there is a + line going out of the battery to the BOOST MODULE and a + line going INTO the battery. That + line IN needs a diode in it and I forgot to put it in the drawing.

Just to save this post from modification or deletion. I may experiment with parts of it and want it in tact.
bi

[altrez]

Hi Altrez,

I have a fair amount of experience with LiFePO4. While that battery may be a good one, I would not recommend it for the test that Turion just outlined. He doesn't specify battery type for his test, but he bases some actions on voltage. The LiFePO4 cell, and therefore battery, has a much different voltage vs SOC (State of Charge) than PbAcid. I'm sure you can find and compare discharge characteristic curves for the two types.

Whatever battery you use, I suggest that you first test it to the manufacturer specifications. I've tested hundreds if not thousands of batteries over the years and have found a substantial number of stinkers as delivered new whether from the factory or from retailer.

Good luck,
bi

{edit} Just been researching (Google) that LiFePO4 battery (ExpertPower) and cannot find detailed technical data.I did notice that special charger is needed.

Thank you fo the information I have had a lot of new bad batteries as well.

[bistander]

A friend recommend this battery as a good starting point.

https://smile.amazon.com/ExpertPower...s%2C169&sr=8-2

What do you guys think?

-Altrez

Hi Altrez,

I have a fair amount of experience with LiFePO4. While that battery may be a good one, I would not recommend it for the test that Turion just outlined. He doesn't specify battery type for his test, but he bases some actions on voltage. The LiFePO4 cell, and therefore battery, has a much different voltage vs SOC (State of Charge) than PbAcid. I'm sure you can find and compare discharge characteristic curves for the two types.

Whatever battery you use, I suggest that you first test it to the manufacturer specifications. I've tested hundreds if not thousands of batteries over the years and have found a substantial number of stinkers as delivered new whether from the factory or from retailer.

Good luck,
bi

{edit} Just been researching (Google) that LiFePO4 battery (ExpertPower) and cannot find detailed technical data.I did notice that special charger is needed.

[altrez]

A friend recommend this battery as a good starting point.

https://smile.amazon.com/ExpertPower...s%2C169&sr=8-2

What do you guys think?

-Altrez

[Turion]

Attached is a circuit.
Testing goes like this.
Charge your battery. Let it rest. Measure it with a battery analyzer.
Attach a MATT MODIFIED MOTOR turning another (stock) motor as a generator directly to a battery. Put a full wave bridge on the output of the generator and connect a 12 volt Light bulb to it as a load with a kilowatt meter between the FWB and the load. Run the battery down to 12.2 volts. Let the batteries rest, and measure the batteries. That gives you a baseline output in power to the load as recorded by the kilowatt meter. YOU ALSO NEED TO KEEP TRACK OF THE TIME THE SETUP RAN.

Now charge the battery back up to where it was. Let it rest, and then test and record with a battery analyzer. The problem with comparing one setup to another is the starting energy in the battery and the ending energy in the battery. Hard to accurately compare.

Then run the first attached circuit. You run it until the total OUTPUT to the load is exactly the same as what the previous circuit put out. Then you stop the test, let the batteries rest for the same amount of time you did in the previous test, and measure the batteries with the battery analyzer. Compare what was in the batteries at the end of the two tests where you produced the exact same amount of power to the load as measured by the kilowatt meter. You can also record the time of the test run, but it's NOT important.

The third step, which is far more difficult to measure, is to run the SECOND circuit I am attaching. You can still run the load, but whether the light is brighter than with the previous test, or dimmer is hard to tell. It's had to get an accurate measurement of what goes into the load as voltage and amperage change over the course of the run. You can measure the TEMPERATURE of BOTH the load in the previous test and the load in this test with an infrared heat gun

https://www.amazon.com/Etekcity-Lase...s%2C507&sr=8-3

and log when the temp of the load drops below a certain point that was set as the "run" temperature by the previous test. If the load is running at a higher temperature, you can kind of ASSUME that more energy is going through it. Here is where your recorded TIME for the first run comes in. If the load runs at a higher temperature for longer than it did in the first test, has more power gone through the load?" Some will argue that it has NOT, and may have good reasons for that argument, but I know of no other way to compare when voltages and amperage aren't consistent. You can't simply put a kilowatt meter on it and measure the input to the load. You can't multiply volts times amps when both fluctuate, so unless you have some really good data logging equipment, this is the only way I know to have a reasonable idea. When the run. time exceeds the run time in the baseline test, stop the test, let the batteries rest and measure the battery.

On these circuits there is a + line going out of the battery to the BOOST MODULE and a + line going INTO the battery. That + line IN needs a diode in it and I forgot to put it in the drawing.

[BroMikey]

Nope. I use a lithium iron battery. A supercap might be a good choice though. I can't say, since I have never owned one.

Me gonna get both, Thanks Dave. I have converters galore. Probably I will show Jordan during this new school year coming up so watch for the potential difference testing. I guess just hook it up like the battery?

[Turion]

Nope. I use a lithium iron battery. A supercap might be a good choice though. I can't say, since I have never owned one.

[BroMikey]

Dave uses super-caps, batteries are obsolete.

[Turion]

ALtrez,
There are lots of guys around who have way more experience with Lithium iron phosphate batteries than I do. Hopefully they will speak up. As for boost modules, you need the most efficient one you can find that will still run between the positives. Some won't. when the sensors see voltage on the negative line they freak out. I'm trying to find spec sheets on ones I have. Meanwell, Drok, and three or four others. Will get back to you.

[altrez]

Hi Altrez,

It was luc running those battery tests. See post#110 video by him showing battery efficiency test.
http://www.energeticforum.com/forum/...ge8#post421408

Regards,
bi

Thanks for sharing the link!

-Altrez

[altrez]

Altrez,

Unless you have discovered something in your research that I don’t know about the 3 Battery system, I don’t know HOW you could possibly be successful running it with those small batteries, especially without a pulse motor like the Matt motor to provide pulsed charge to the 3rd battery, and you would want a boost module to assure you are hitting that battery constantly with enough voltage to charge it. As the battery charges the potential difference can dip below battery voltage and charge efficiency goes in the toilet. How will you overcome these issues to do a REAL and proper test?

Do you have a way of coming up with the pulse motor needed? I do NOT currently have one, as I gave too many away. I have enough parts to put a couple together, but I do not have the time, and would be willing to send you the parts to make one, possibly including the wire (will have to check on that...not sure I have any) I also have a spare boost module or two around here somewhere.

if you are willing to make that effort to do PROPER testing, and are going to purchase NEW batteries, hold off until I get the answers to the questions I have just asked. I am always willing, when I have the money, to put my money where my mouth is and I could probably come up with $300-400 for you to add to what you were GOING to spend on batteries to get some GOOD deep cycle batteries. Or possibly Lithium iron phosphate batteries that will handle charging and discharging better.

I would love to see somebody take the time to test the 3 Battery system properly and shut some people up who have no idea what they are talking about. Let me know.

Had a thought. If you REALLY want to see the potential of this system, you should build the single battery circuit bi says HE tested with no positive results. Far LESS expensive to build and Ivan show you how to set it up and PROPERLY test it. Still need that pulse motor, but only ONE battery.


Dave

Dave,

Thank you so much for the offer to help. I like the idea of using the one battery test first. Can you recommend a GOOD battery to buy off Amazon and I will order it. I have some boost modules but if you could please point the best 1 out on Amazon I will order a few of those as well. I will put in the effort and I will pay for everything just need a bit of help with the part list. I have around 1k in my project money at the moment that I can invest in the one battery test.

I will start off with the One battery test and go from there. I will do all the right tests I have all the necessary meters and data loggers. I will check on a motor.

Thanks Again,

-Altrez

[Turion]

There is no valid test with batteries that small. How about that bet? Put up or shut up.

[bistander]

Ivan is my cousin in Russia. Either that, or I meant to type “I can” instead of “Ivan”. Not sure which.

I love that Luc’s test is the “definitive” evaluation of the 3 battery system. He was told BY ME prior to beginning the tests that he would get NO positive results using THOSE batteries because they were far too small and offer too much impedance to being charged. Something I have said from DAY ONE about the 3 Battery System.

His response was that it was all he could afford and if he saw positive results, THEN he would invest in large, deep cycle batteries. His results were a foregone conclusion.

How about that bet bi? Grow a spine yet? Still flapping your feathers I see. Put up or shut up.

Turion, you say "definitive". Who are you quoting? It's not me. I never said that about his test. Although it does look like a valid test for what it was. IIRC he was in the process of preparing larger batteries to repeat the test but was driven away by some members.
regards,
bi