Ionization & Water Fuel

[tutanka]

NEMO ALERT: Australian Fuel System Alternate-Energy

"Air is bled in small amounts into the cell done by the suction of the engines intake strokes"

"Also according to the information source complementing a copper electromagnet on the anode improves the nitrogen fuel synthesis. Wrap insulated copper wire into a coil then wrap the coil around the anode of the cell and connect to the anode in series, apprantly this will improve the nitrogen hydroxide synthesis up to 10 times."

"The magnetic wire wrap helps strip gas bobbles from the anode and cathode of the chamber so that more gas bubbles can be produced."

"1) You've got electrolytic action on a very weak electrolyte.

2) You are using stream water and a very few grains of rock salt as a one time catalyst.

3) You are only reacting 12 volts DC on the chamber mixture.

4) You are pulling a lot of fresh air into the chamber which is mostly made up of nitrogen.

5) Once the chamber has been run for a while it generates approximately 13.7 volts on its own, just like a battery.

6) Unlike the other systems out there, the fuel gas is nitrogen hydroxide and not oxygen and/or hydrogen."

Anyway, all those are from the link at the top, read them in context and
check out the other links in this thread:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2748-nitrogen-hydroxide.html

You can see the consistent talk of bubbling air into the cell, magnetic
field, warmth of cell, etc...

Hello,
You send on thread more informations but in fact don't understand how you want to go.. can you explain better your idea? Regards

[sucahyo]

For the "HHO" cells, there is a very consistent concept of bubbling air into the bottom of the hho cell according to many of the posts claiming "nitrogen hydroxide." And heat seems to especially help in the water
separation process.

It would be easy enough to use heating elements, etc... to warm air but
when an engine is running, there are multiple sources of heat that are
automatic...

Might as well build the HHO cell in paralel (not in series like what usually done) and don't care wether the water reach boiling temperature. Who knows that water vapour might actually help .

I think the use of electrolyte should be avoided, some say that Na or K foam will form on the engine inside. One of the extreme example is the piston got coated with brown enamel, don't know if it is from iron oxide or from NaOH foam.

The link give me error: "this ip is banned".

[Aaron]

nitrogen hydroxide posts

NEMO ALERT: Australian Fuel System Alternate-Energy

"Air is bled in small amounts into the cell done by the suction of the engines intake strokes"

"Also according to the information source complementing a copper electromagnet on the anode improves the nitrogen fuel synthesis. Wrap insulated copper wire into a coil then wrap the coil around the anode of the cell and connect to the anode in series, apprantly this will improve the nitrogen hydroxide synthesis up to 10 times."

"The magnetic wire wrap helps strip gas bobbles from the anode and cathode of the chamber so that more gas bubbles can be produced."

"1) You've got electrolytic action on a very weak electrolyte.

2) You are using stream water and a very few grains of rock salt as a one time catalyst.

3) You are only reacting 12 volts DC on the chamber mixture.

4) You are pulling a lot of fresh air into the chamber which is mostly made up of nitrogen.

5) Once the chamber has been run for a while it generates approximately 13.7 volts on its own, just like a battery.

6) Unlike the other systems out there, the fuel gas is nitrogen hydroxide and not oxygen and/or hydrogen."

Anyway, all those are from the link at the top, read them in context and
check out the other links in this thread:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2748-nitrogen-hydroxide.html

You can see the consistent talk of bubbling air into the cell, magnetic
field, warmth of cell, etc...

[Aaron]

WFC consideration

@All,

For the "HHO" cells, there is a very consistent concept of bubbling
air into the bottom of the hho cell according to many of the posts claiming
"nitrogen hydroxide." And heat seems to especially help in the water
separation process.

It would be easy enough to use heating elements, etc... to warm air but
when an engine is running, there are multiple sources of heat that are
automatic...

pcv output (blow by) - it is warm but not sure how much air output there
is.

exhaust heat or exhaust itself - this is used by geet and of course has
plenty of volume of "air" and definitely hot.

radiant heat from engine itself - heat but no air.

Another component is that in those websites about "nitrogen hydroxide",
they also incorporate magnetic fields with the HHO cell. I don't know if
it is necessary or just an enhancement. But there are claims it seriously
increases the bonding of nitrogen to hydroxy..supposedly. Even if they
don't know the chemistry, by observation they could still be aware that
they get better results with magnetic fields than without.

It could be permanent magnets or coils. I'd prefer permanent magnets
since it doesn't need a power source that we have to provide.

Murlin mentions:
"I believe copper intake tubes along with heat, helps this process to take place as the water inside the cell is heated."

and

"It just requires a tad of vacuum, some copper, water and heat and a battery...."

I have to still think out the copper deal, still designing my preferred
air/gas processor in my head.

1. hho cell
2. warmth (by "electrolysis" current anyway) and/or air from pcv or exhaust
like the geet
3. vacuum (which should happen through bubbler by venturi effect being
ducted into intake)
4. magnetic field
5. bubbled air (most nitrogen hydroxy pages talk about this a lot)
6. possibly koh from lye is needed as electrolyte - helps or hurts?
not sure of chemistry

Any comments?

[Aaron]

Hi Moose and misc...

Welcome Moose 53! I remember you briefly in the water sparkplug thread.

-----------------------------------

I'm just posting some various references for my own convenience,
not sure if anyone is interested but it deals with nitrogen/hydrogen/oxygen
power.

------------------------------------

Misc blurb about active nitrogen: "The atomic oxygen radicals ressociation is catalyzed by the "active nitrogen" (the ionized nitrogen) and process that involved a big clearance of Energy - the contact of atomic oxygen radicals with active nitrogen generates a plasma of several tens of thousands Kelvin moving with 25 -30 km / sec, Which could be accelerated by an MHD accelerator using appropriated magnetic fields, and by cooling that become plasma AIR, clear air ..."

That was looked at for propulsion.

-------------------------------------

20010093231 North American Aviation, Inc., Los Angeles, CA USA
Active Nitrogen as a Possible Fuel for Jet Propulsion Systems
Dixon, T. F., North American Aviation, Inc., USA; Aug. 08, 1947; 13p; In English
Report No.(s): AL-313; No Copyright; Avail: CASI; A03, Hardcopy; A01, Microfiche
There is a belief that the energy available in excited forms of nitrogen may be utilized as a power source for jet-propelled
devices. Very little is known, however, of the properties of active nitrogen. The theoretical performance of active nitrogen and
liquid hydrogen as a propellant system is high, though the assumed difficulty of maintaining nitrogen in a liquid state is prohibitive
for its success as a jet propulsion fuel.
CASI
Liquid Hydrogen; Nitrogen; Liquid Rocket Propellants; Propellant Properties

-------------------------------------

This is just the first page available of this article...

The Nascent State...
The nascent state - Journal of Chemical Education (ACS Publications and Division of Chemical Education)

The nascent state

J. H. Reedy and E. D. Biggers
J. Chem. Educ., 1942, 19 (9), p 403
DOI: 10.1021/ed019p403
Publication Date: September 1942


"Davy noticed in 1807 that electrolytic hydrogen will combine with nitrogen
in the presence of water, while ordinary hydrogen will not."




------------------------------

Sir Humphry Davy:
sir humphry davy - Google Search
Sir Humphry Davy
Humphry Davy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

-------------------------------

Would love copies of these if anyone can get them

Dini, D., "Closed Cycle Water Steam (from H2/02/
H20 Combustion) Car," in Hydrogen Energy
Progress IX, Edited by T.N. Veziroglu and C.
Derive-J. Pottier, International Association for
Hydrogen Energy, Coral Gables, FL, p. 1351, 1992.

30. Dini, D., "Nitrogen/Hydrogen Automotive Engine to
Avoid Atmospheric Pollution," in Hydrogen Energy
Progress VIII, Edited by T.N. Veziroglu and P.K.
Takahashi, Pergamon Press, Elmsford, N.Y., p. 1363,
1990.

Feasible Non-Polluting Car Engines Using Air-Water Components

Document Number: 911702
Date Published: September 1991
Author(s):
Dino Dini - University of Pisa
Abstract:
The paper is dealing alternative non-polluting engines for driving cars. Only air-water system components are used as working and heating fluids. Through optimization processes, gaseous nitrogen, oxygen and hydrogen, from air and water, may be obtained at acceptable energy (solar or nuclear) need, to be converted in liquid form at low cost. Using such cryogenic liquid fluids, solutions are proposed for car heat engines not producing air pollution and greenhouse warming, i.e.: 1) high pressure and temperature multiple expansion reciprocating engine, with water steam as working fluid produced in a H\d2/O\d2/H\d2O combustion chamber. In a closed cycle, water steam is condensed by an air-radiator; and 2) superheated and reheated nitrogen in a double acting reciprocating gas expander, whose open cycle get heat from hydrogen-air combustion.
File Size: 1317K
Product Status: In Stock
See other papers presented at Aiec, August 1991, Warrendale, PA, USA, Session: Aiec

---------------------------------------------------

[rosco1]

Members of the team.

As tutanka has written previously, explosive thermal energy is comprised of more than one stage, the most important stage is the Nascent plug.

Tutanka and myself would very much like to formally introduce the readers to Moose 53, who is very much an integral part of this team.

While he obviously likes to keep a low profile, it's only fitting that everyone here be aware of who the third member of the team is.

[tutanka]

Not before it explode. I am talking about the event after the explosion. The endothermic reaction part do not start before reaching very high temperature.

What you describe sound more like implosion after small explosion. I am talking about temperature after the combustion chamber reach plasma temperature.

I think the exothermic reaction(NH3/ammonia creation) will happen along with the first fire and help catalyst the burning. After the temperature reach the endothermic reaction requirement (HNO3 creation) it will made a bigger bang and sudden temperature drop because of big energy requirement, along with greener gas output. Only theory though.

Hello,
This is my consideration after test, thermal explosive energy is reached ONLY using an catalist because you forget that you use only water that not burn usually. In fact new fuel mixture must be unstable, water is stable so it does not react. Object of that project is create unstable mixture for reach an fastly exothermic reaction because you want use that into an engine that run at some rpm. We have called that "micronic fuel mixture" that react only with nascent plug and plasma. About Meyer.. I'm sure that inside injector of meyer is created low amount of catalist, not all water droplets are transformed inside..

[sucahyo]

I think the term "Thermal Explosive Energy" is disqualified from any definition of "cold explosion".

You have to ask yourself this one question, "How do I get the combustion of water fuel to push my piston down with strong enough force?"

Cold explosion is quick fast popping of the gas that doesn't really give a punch. It recombines into water forming a vacuum by the decrease in volume. That isn't what we want.

Not before it explode. I am talking about the event after the explosion. The endothermic reaction part do not start before reaching very high temperature.

What you describe sound more like implosion after small explosion. I am talking about temperature after the combustion chamber reach plasma temperature.

I think the exothermic reaction(NH3/ammonia creation) will happen along with the first fire and help catalyst the burning. After the temperature reach the endothermic reaction requirement (HNO3 creation) it will made a bigger bang and sudden temperature drop because of big energy requirement, along with greener gas output. Only theory though.

[Aaron]

thermal

Sucahyo,

I think the term "Thermal Explosive Energy" is disqualified from any definition
of "cold explosion".

You have to ask yourself this one question, "How do I get the combustion
of water fuel to push my piston down with strong enough force?"

Cold explosion is quick fast popping of the gas
that doesn't really give a punch. It recombines into water forming a vacuum
by the decrease in volume. That isn't what we want.

The Thermal method is active nitrogen and h1 giving EXPANSION and it's
apparently hot.

[sucahyo]

Hello,
HEAT is important for obtain reaction but my reactor is ONLY chambre of combustion not outside reactors are used.. in part can be used GEET .. but only for use heat from exaust gas. Regards

Thanks . I forgot that there is weakness in utilizing exhaust heat. Some of the chemical reaction above is endothermal (absorb heat). It is possible that in some condition the engine will run cool because it produce cold explosion...


Some more chemical reaction in heat:
Catalytic converter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Since 1981, three-way catalytic converters have been used in vehicle emission control systems in North America and many other countries on roadgoing vehicles. A three-way catalytic converter has three simultaneous tasks:
1. Reduction of nitrogen oxides to nitrogen and oxygen: 2NOx → xO2 + N2
2. Oxidation of carbon monoxide to carbon dioxide: 2CO + O2 → 2CO2
3. Oxidation of unburnt hydrocarbons (HC) to carbon dioxide and water: CxH2x+2 + [(3x+1)/2]O2 → xCO2 + (x+1)H2O

...
Unwanted reactions can occur in the three-way catalyst, such as the formation of odiferous hydrogen sulfide and ammonia (NH3). Formation of each can be limited by modifications to the washcoat and precious metals used. It is difficult to eliminate these byproducts entirely.

We can assume that NH3 always produced. Maybe this is the reason for why water injection can improve ICE performance.


Also ammonia can help reduce NOx:
Selective catalytic reduction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

4NO + 4NH3 + O2 → 4N2 + 6H2O
2NO2 + 4NH3 + O2 → 3N2 + 6H2O
NO + NO2 + 2NH3 → 2N2 + 3H2O

The ideal reaction has an optimal temperature range between 630 and 720 K, but can operate from 500 to 720 K with longer residence times.

Iron- and copper-exchanged zeolite urea SCRs have been developed with approximately equal performance to that of vanadium-urea SCRs if the fraction of the NO2 is 20% to 50% of the total NOx.[4] The two most common designs of SCR catalyst geometry used today are honeycomb and plate. The honeycomb form usually is an extruded ceramic applied homogeneously throughout the ceramic carrier or coated on the substrate. Like the various types of catalysts, their configuration also has advantages and disadvantages. Plate-type catalysts have lower pressure drops and are less susceptible to plugging and fouling than the honeycomb types, but plate configurations are much larger and more expensive. Honeycomb configurations are smaller than plate types, but have higher pressure drops and plug much more easily.[1]

Selective non-catalytic reduction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

specific temperature window to be efficient. The reaction also needs sufficient reaction time in that temperature window.

The reason for long ammonia post is I think ammonia hold the key for more cold combustion.

[Jetijs]

Hi Aaron.
I use tungsten electrodes on my plasma setup that I demonstrate to people that are interested in this. It always gives blue/white plasma burst.

[Aaron]

the color purple

Very interesting, is the tungsten contributing to that color?

Is that open air or open air + water mist?

I've seen white, bluish, green and even touches of red but don't
think I've seen that distinct color of purple before with the plasma.

[rosco1]

Aaron

That is interesting the purple colors. Is that with or without a filter?

Tutanka retired for some sleep about 30 minutes ago.

That's without a filter.

Those are the actual colours apparent with the ignition and plug combo.

[Aaron]

colors

Tutanka, to clarify, the neutral ions in the air processor you mention is
processing both air and water at same time?

Neutral ions (positive/negative) are only based on ambient air and not water treatment (circuit posted isn't the same used, we use high HV field 30+30Kv for increase ionization treatment)

Otherwise, there is still a method of + ionizing air and - water right or
have I misunderstood something?

As written I don't see the instructions of meyer exaclty, these inputs are referred to Gas Processor and water steam used inside meyer process for increase time of reaction ..

What % of light spectrum in plasma is ionizing UV for these particular
plasma ignition systems?

You can see with your eyes..

That is interesting the purple colors. Is that with or without a filter?

[Aaron]

Water Sparkplug

I haven't thought about these plasma circuits since some of my "Gray Motor"
tests last spring or summer. If anyone is new to this thread and wants to
see what this plasma ignition deal is all about, please see this thread:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2242-water-sparkplug.html

It is the #1 MOST VIEWED thread on Energetic Forum and I think the best
thread on the internet on the subject. I think I might be partial to this
forum

Anyway, I started that thread after Jibbguy urged me to check out Luc's
diode effect in his youtube vids or at OU.com. I could see that some people
thought the effect was coming from the wall since the LV cap was charged
by an inverter so my first goal was to prove that it had nothing to do with
that and so I showed the isolated cap experiments proving the effect was
indeed NOT from the AC at the wall. I could see the comparison to the
Gray circuit as it was the only thing that matched the description by
Hackenberger himself when he said the KEY to the Gray system was mixing
STATIC (HV POTENTIAL) with DC (DIRECT CURRENT) and this is what
these plasma circuits do.

So that is why I started the Water Sparkplug thread. Gmeast probably
had the most developed public domain plasma ignition based on these
concepts and used steam to increase up to 43% mpg on his VW. That is
very substantial. Rosco posted some compression tests showing the
plasma getting BIGGER under compression and with air I believe while
regular sparks gets SMALLER under compressions and with air blown on
it.

Luc was originally looking to replicate S1R's "water powered engine", which
nobody has ever replicated and could be either complete disinformation
or a planned leak to leak these concepts into the public domain piece
by piece. Who knows? In either case, that S1R was also mixing LV/high
current with HV through the relays - always confusing drawings that
never reveal anything. I saw the reverse diode of Luc's and knew that is
the FIRST path for HV and the gap is SECOND. Everyone else thought
the diode automatically blocked but it doesn't until AFTER hv moves
through first. I gathered that 8 years ago or whenever John Bedini first
released his diagrams of the Gray circuit after Peter Lindemann first
released his book. John's diagram showed the reverse diode.

In the Water Sparkplug thread, Rosco and others showed some replications
of the Krupa plug, that appears to not have significant advantage over
the plasma ignition and a regular resistorless plug with the ground strap
cut off. Rosco, please correct me if that is incorrect. I couldn't duplicate
these plugs because I don't have the tools or machining or welding
experience but I can cut off a ground strap

Over the evolution of the thread, many circuits came into being all basically
based on the same principle of LV being caused to move over with a
current punch following the HV, when normally that LV cannot jump the
gap to begin with. I have my own wild theories and I do believe they
are theories and not hypothesis on why this really happens with my own
aether model but in any case, LV can jump a big gap under the right
conditions.

So there were positive circuits and negative inverted circuits. Some people
used whatever depending on the polarity of the ignition coil. Some get
HV from the punch up and some get HV on the way down as far as I know.
Many of these circuit schematics started to pop up around the web,
which apparently were simply knock-offs in my opinion of all the work and
sharing done at Energetic Forum.

That is just my short take on the Water Sparkplug thread.

For me, there have been nothing but seriously profound synchronicites
non-stop in all of this for me and why I'm so interested in this Tutanka
process, not just for the water fuel, but the obvious possible connections
to the Gray circuit. This plasma effect in a combustion chamber and
possibly in a Gray Tube, both use mixing of HV and LV, etc... allotropic
nitrogen, etc... anyway, it would sound like I'm making it all up if I told
the full truth about how everything happened.

Anyway, if anyone wants the scoop on the plasma ignition concepts,
please see this thread:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2242-water-sparkplug.html

Tutanka's ignition process he and his team developed that he is mentioning
is proprietary and won't be shared here but the bottom line
is that plasma ignition is the way to go and a tungsten electrode should
be able to hold up to the abuse. And there are MANY variations of the
plasma ignition circuits in the water sparkplug thread so please check
them out.

If you want to see some examples of some plasma "sparks" with these
circuits, here are some of my youtube vids. The dates show on those
vids are for the 2nd or 3rd time I posted them because my first few
accounts kept getting deleted by youtube.

These are open air tests on the bench from small plasma bursts up to
big ones that blew up water bigger than baseball. But of course, it kills
normal plug electrodes quickly. Use sunglasses and ear plugs because
this plasma can blind and deafen you and if you think that is a joke,
it's not. It is like a little sun with head pounding pops and what you
see in the camera cannot do it justice compared to what you see in
real life...much brighter and much louder.

I'm sure none of this compares to Tutanka's ignition - these were just
learning and having fun

I'm posting the Gray circuit ones too because when I first put an inductor
in series with the plug and plasma circuit, the plasma became silent and
I could see the inductor jump. I mentioned the "silent plasma" once but
never brought it up and I think it was Jetijs was the only one that
picked up on that...at least the only one that asked me. Someone
else mentioned after I posted the vid he thought it made a "slow" plasma.
Perhaps this inductor can prolong the length of time the plasma remains
in the combustion chamber.

Ground stap is equivalent to grid in Gray
circuit. Anyway, all the Gray "motor" experiments are simply an inductor
in series with the plasma circuit. AND, the LV cap is caused to discharge
QUICKER than normal under these circumstances. Not sure if everyone
has seen that, but I think it was Greg that showed it first, which I think
hints to the possibility that the inductor is seen as a negative resistance
during the effect.

YouTube - Plasma Ignition - Water Sparkplug Circuit by Peter Lindemann
YouTube - Plasma CDI (capacitive discharge ignition) 50hz
YouTube - Water Sparkplug | Plasma Ignition | With current restriction
YouTube - Water Sparkplug | Plasma Ignition| Booster Caps
YouTube - Plasma Spark Implosion
YouTube - Gray Tube Demonstration Proof of Concept
YouTube - Gray Tube Demonstration Proof of Concept
YouTube - Gray Tube Test
YouTube - Water Sparkplug Circuit Verification
YouTube - Water Sparkplug Isolated Capacitor
YouTube - Water Sparkplug Test on Lawnmower
YouTube - Ralph Bergstresser Spark Prolonger 3939814 never used it, just wanted to know about it.
YouTube - Gray Tube | Pendulum Setup
YouTube - Here's how the Gray Tube works
YouTube - Gray Circuit Coil Popping Demo
YouTube - Aaron's Green Plasma Motor in the Dark
YouTube - Murakami-Gray 2 Point Motor
YouTube - Positive Jumps to Positive with Common Ground
YouTube - Murakami-Gray 3 Point
YouTube - Plasma with AND without Inductor
YouTube - Murakami-Gray 3 Point Plasma outside of tube
YouTube - Murakami-Gray 1 Wire Battery Charging effect
YouTube - Murakami-Gray Recovery in 4 places
YouTube - Murakami-Gray Motor Replication

I have to engulf my head back into the plasma ignition stuff so that
is the purpose of this post! lol