Bi-toroid Transformer of Thane C. Heins

[BroMikey]

Experienced Person

Oh I didn't know all of that thanks a mil. Will do, keep her down to a mild roar on voltage. Also thanks for the Approx .4 value so maybe I won't be so lazy and run the numbers.

I wound the primary like this.

181 turns of 22AWG coil dia 2" X 5/8" thick X 1/2" wide OHMS= 2.9 again.

It is setting up on the glue right now for about an hour.

The first test will be to use 1 primary and one secondary with a single core to link them together. I will take readings.

So it sounds like to me that I can't take the iron out of this conventionally wound coil and replace it with ferrite unless I triple the length of wire.

Because this is all I have done. I have taken the coil of wire off of one spool and rewound it to fit my ferrite. And you are saying it will burn up using the replacement ferrite core? I didn't realize this.

So the ferrite is about 1/3rd as conductive as Iron? So I would need more turns to run 117vac.

Well no problem I wasn't planning on doing much more on low frequency. I am doing the low frequency for the reason that I need to gain a relative idea what these core do by comparison to iron and you have just informed me.

So it is worth it to me. We all need to start from the beginning like this even if it is only for a few hours of pondering No sense wearing myself out on it.

So the coils I have are better suited for high frequencies pretty awesome I'd say since I will be spending most of my time doing that.

Again thanks for the help so when I power up I will know more what to expect. I don't mind running at 10-20vac on the primary because the secondaries should be able to run some of my low voltage bulbs and I can still run amp draw tests for power in and power out.

I am not sure how my scope should be hooked to read power factor but I will look for this function on this HP54100D $29,000 scope when it was new.

My bubble was never much of a bubble for bursting because I really never expected much more out of it than to light low voltage stuff.

I wasn't gonna just power right up to 117vac so I have no bubble for sure now and this is good. No I didn't think I was going to get twice from this sloppy slammed together set of coils.

I did however expect that if I took an iron core out and replaced it with a ferrite that I could power it up to 117vac safely yet I always us a variac to inch up slowly.

You have warned me ahead of time so I will see what you are saying real soon. Gonna pull out my amp too. Gotta couple of older rack mount signal generators to play with feeding the input.

Power factor readings at low voltages should be doable.

Mike

Worth a shot I guess.

Keep the voltage way down. With that small of a core, high voltage and low frequency it is sure to saturate the core. The formula I posted is darn close for most all power transformers. If I were you I'd run the numbers. If it calculates that you need 560 turns and you only have 200, well... You'll see soon enough.

You need the voltage, the frequency, the cross sectional area of the two cores and the Tesla value which will be probably around 0.4 for your ferrite cores. I would expect it to give you a whooper of a turns count.

I looked closely at Thane's big coil for the wall power test and it probably has 1000 turns on there or more which fits pretty close to my formula. That many turns of small wire and you get big copper loss, but if the coil is only acting as an exciter, then no big deal.

Trust me, I tried the wall power gig with my setup and I have big C cores with a Tesla around 1.2 and still I was saturating at about 80 volts @ 60Hz. I was putting down 60 turns per layer of 24 AWG and stopped at 8 layers, so roughly 480 turns. That's when Bill told me to forget about low frequency--not going to work.

Seriously, I'm not trying to burst your bubble. Just saying I've been down that road. I think what your putting together has pretty good chances of working at higher frequency, but running it at 60 Hz will probably be disappointing. You might see a little if you keep the voltage way down, 10 volts at the most.

[Dog-One]

Worth a shot I guess.

Keep the voltage way down. With that small of a core, high voltage and low frequency it is sure to saturate the core. The formula I posted is darn close for most all power transformers. If I were you I'd run the numbers. If it calculates that you need 560 turns and you only have 200, well... You'll see soon enough.

You need the voltage, the frequency, the cross sectional area of the two cores and the Tesla value which will be probably around 0.4 for your ferrite cores. I would expect it to give you a whooper of a turns count.

I looked closely at Thane's big coil for the wall power test and it probably has 1000 turns on there or more which fits pretty close to my formula. That many turns of small wire and you get big copper loss, but if the coil is only acting as an exciter, then no big deal.

Trust me, I tried the wall power gig with my setup and I have big C cores with a Tesla around 1.2 and still I was saturating at about 80 volts @ 60Hz. I was putting down 60 turns per layer of 24 AWG and stopped at 8 layers, so roughly 480 turns. That's when Bill told me to forget about low frequency--not going to work.

Seriously, I'm not trying to burst your bubble. Just saying I've been down that road. I think what your putting together has pretty good chances of working at higher frequency, but running it at 60 Hz will probably be disappointing. You might see a little if you keep the voltage way down, 10 volts at the most.

[BroMikey]

Primary

Hey Dog-One

It turns out to be a 150-60 foot piece of wire from a pile pumps I have. The standard voltage to these windings is 117vac so I learned along time ago for each gauge of wire like 23 awg needs 160 foot of wire to work off the wall and the 26awg needs a 130 foot around an iron core.

So I cheat, I use an already calculated out length of wire

Mike

[BroMikey]

Lol Fuse



Hi Dog-One

Yes of course well I am using one of my 3 variacs

Also what might interest you is to look at the last post i made of Thanes 169vac primary.

The point it 40 turns of thick wire is not going to cut it. That is for a switch mode design. Like a pass transformer approach.

I am going to try 23awg probably 2" dia coil 1/2" X 5/8" so we are looking at a primary similar to what a standard transformer coil would need.

Just a standard set of coils using ferrite instead of iron to see what Thane saw. Look a few pages back and you will see the video of Thanes experimental setup. It has 3 huge coils so large they are almost touching.

The primary is so thick with windings is reminds me of a normal sized coil for AC, and it is.

Did you see THAT video? Or are you only seeing the THANE stuff in other BiTT setups?

Look close, they are not all the same.

Then I can turn around and pull the primary when I want to run switch designs. I need circuits for that. Pulsed DC will do very little so I need an AC inverter that has a variable frequency.

Most of the VFO circuits around are 400hz. This is unacceptable.

I the mean time pure sine wave does exist coming out of the wall so the bigger coils are required.

I always use either a huge wirewound resistor with multiple taps or a variac to inch up to the voltage watching the amp draw.

Yes good insight for any beginner. Don't wanta smoke all yer goodies in a NEW YORK minute.

What do you think about that Dog-One? Did you see Thanes big windings. I put a large picture of Thanes windings up but sometimes people see these pictures and they are not sure of the purpose.

Let me point out that Thane stated in his video that the experimental data he was exploring centered around using straight AC off the wall. The input coming off his variac straight off the wall was 169volts and if I remember right something like .32 amps? I think that is right.

So looking at the spool tells me he uses a long enough piece of wire to use wall current. Now that is one big roll of wire dudes.

Mike

Okay...

If you run the numbers through that formula I posted, I think you'll find the primary cores will saturate; you know what that means? A dead short plugged into the wall.

Please use a fuse.

[wayne.ct]

Safety Warning

Don't be surprised if you trip your circuit breaker. Be careful out there.

[Dog-One]

Also I want everyone to know I am going for straight AC out of the wall first.

Okay...

If you run the numbers through that formula I posted, I think you'll find the primary cores will saturate; you know what that means? A dead short plugged into the wall.

Please use a fuse.

[BroMikey]

X & Y scope type

Hello Web000x


Yeah I got one of those kind of scopes. The cap measuring idea is new to me so I will keep that one under my hat Between you are me it is good to come up with more ways to monitor resonant circuit operations.

Also I want everyone to know I am going for straight AC out of the wall first. The second primary I wind will be switched in and out in a matter of minutes to run the gamut with an old audio amp.

Of course once it can be verified that AC out of the wall works I will want to run a light on it.


THEN GO FOR BROKE

Mike

If you have an XY display mode on your scope, you can visually represent the BH curve of your material by using the attached schematic.

@BroMikey,
Regarding my resonating caps heating up, using a higher voltage rating capacitor usually means that the capacitor is relatively bigger than lower voltage caps of the same capacitance value. These bigger caps are still going to dissipate the same amount of heat, assuming similar dielectric materials are used, but it will be more difficult to observe with the human senses since that heat will be dissipated over a larger volume. I like to push the limit of my resonating caps so that when it does start to heat up, I can feel it. It is important to document all sources of heat coming from the secondaries. Just do be careful if following my path because it does become dangerous if you over drive the caps. They will explode. I've seen resonating voltages reach well into 500 volts so don't think you can use just any old cap. Luckily I have quite an assortment that can handle the voltages.

Dave

[Web000x]

If you have an XY display mode on your scope, you can visually represent the BH curve of your material by using the attached schematic.

@BroMikey,
Regarding my resonating caps heating up, using a higher voltage rating capacitor usually means that the capacitor is relatively bigger than lower voltage caps of the same capacitance value. These bigger caps are still going to dissipate the same amount of heat, assuming similar dielectric materials are used, but it will be more difficult to observe with the human senses since that heat will be dissipated over a larger volume. I like to push the limit of my resonating caps so that when it does start to heat up, I can feel it. It is important to document all sources of heat coming from the secondaries. Just do be careful if following my path because it does become dangerous if you over drive the caps. They will explode. I've seen resonating voltages reach well into 500 volts so don't think you can use just any old cap. Luckily I have quite an assortment that can handle the voltages.

Dave

[BroMikey]

BH Curves

I am using an audio amp. Since I'm using a resonating capacitor in the secondaries, the inherent low pass filter in the audio amp doesn't limit power delivery. Once I get close to resonance, the impedance of the primary drops enough to where I can still pump power into it. I start to lose a sine wave after about 100kHz.

Lookin' good, Mike. Hope you make a discovery that simple, available material will also manifest the effect. I've got a sneaking suspicion that only cores with a highly square BH curve will work the best. I've got a method for determining the BH curve of a material using an XY scope function. If anybody is interested, I'll post details.

Dave

Hello Dave

Sure put the method out there maybe I'll come up higher in the ranks someday. If you don't post it I can't learn anything now can I?


Saturation (magnetic) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Hello Dog-One

Remember that iron core you bought? Well it is my assumption that any winding using ferrite should display the effect. I may not run my house on it or even top any of you gentlemen but maybe my approach will inspire "Joe Experimenter" Even Joe knows more than I do. I just make it look simple stupid so that it is an offer someone can't refuse.


Yes you are right I could have wound rectangular coils yet extra mass is okay if I can get it tuned.

Mike

[Web000x]

Looks pretty good Mike, but I have to say, you have a lot more copper there than you really need to get around those cores.

I just ordered some toroids too, so if I get stuck with my AlphaCores, I can fall back to what Dave has and work forward from there.

A bit curious how Dave is running at 80kHz. Guess he's not using an audio amp. Mine drops off pretty fast once I get above 20kHz. I do have some switching boards that can go much faster, but now we're talking square waves instead of sine waves. Guess that is something else that needs to be explored.

I am using an audio amp. Since I'm using a resonating capacitor in the secondaries, the inherent low pass filter in the audio amp doesn't limit power delivery. Once I get close to resonance, the impedance of the primary drops enough to where I can still pump power into it. I start to lose a sine wave after about 100kHz.

Lookin' good, Mike. Hope you make a discovery that simple, available material will also manifest the effect. I've got a sneaking suspicion that only cores with a highly square BH curve will work the best. I've got a method for determining the BH curve of a material using an XY scope function. If anybody is interested, I'll post details.

Dave

[Dog-One]

Looks pretty good Mike, but I have to say, you have a lot more copper there than you really need to get around those cores.

I just ordered some toroids too, so if I get stuck with my AlphaCores, I can fall back to what Dave has and work forward from there.

A bit curious how Dave is running at 80kHz. Guess he's not using an audio amp. Mine drops off pretty fast once I get above 20kHz. I do have some switching boards that can go much faster, but now we're talking square waves instead of sine waves. Guess that is something else that needs to be explored.

[BroMikey]

Mikeys BiTT Build HEHEHE

Hi Everyone

Progress is sweet. Here are my beginning winds. It is 171 turns of 20 Awg

The circumference of the spool is around 14" and 200 feet.

This is gonna Be a JIM Dandy!! I can feel it in my bones. I have wandered for years to find an experiment or two to settle on like John Bedini's Solid state SG OSC and cap dump I did.

Here is one more to make it three devices I have deemed worth the time. I am sure there must be more but some demos don't give clear instruction so i am limited to the ones with a complete parts list.










I wanted you all to see how I ganged up three flyback cores so I cracked it open for you.


Don't know the permeability of flybacks but I am hoping someone can tell me.










More work to be done. With all of the experienced men on this thread anyone should be able to get enough help to build these little BiTT transformers.

Very exciting days to be alive gentlemen.

Mikey

[BroMikey]

Secondary coil Number One Done

Just wrapped up s 200ft 170 turn secondary CCW but it didn't turn out as pretty as I wanted it to. The spool I made today that went over top of the winder spool is made of HDPE or in my case an empty window washer fluid gallon jug.

That smooth plastic slides around easy so I will get it right off when the glue dries in 2 hours. I will wait til Sunday to make another spool.

I didn't keep up with the turn count but three of my meters read 2.9ohms so it is going to be fun but what I am doing is using a marker on the spools so i know when to stop winding at the edge of the circle.

Winding perfect rows is harder than I thought and will require .001 tolerance precision. Maybe I can make one or buy one for not to much. The poor boys live hand to mouth.

This gives me a single coil dimension of inner dia 4" (4" Sch80 PVC spool base) with the outer 5" Dia X approx 5/8" thick which also corresponds to a 1/2" wide coil.

I wanted to go to 3/4" originally for a 5.5" outer but stopped at my gut feeling. Just ball parking the thing knew it was time to stop.

Mike

[BroMikey]

Lowering frequency

Hey Web000x

I was about to comment on so many demos with no cap values I have come across on Youtube. Great work sharing the complete setup for the average Joe experimenter. What seems to be an insignificant detail to you will keep replicators from success who didn't get the EE training you had.

On the core material. Like Dog-One has posted that he wanted to order a special core design based on calculations at low frequencies was going to run $900 I would like to say that the $3 price tag is much more appealing.

Great first step!! OBVIOUSLY

I think as long as a core material has a good frequency response in the AUDIO range and or above the Joe Experimenter is good go so to speak.

Of course we all know the audio range stops at a little over 20,000 hz.

I think once the Bi-toroid core mass and wire reach a couple of pounds the freq drops way down.

The transformer core material you are using has a range of 400hz-100,000hz
Pretty dern good I'd say. This is the most common core material in the switch-mode industry.

If the experimenter decides later that they need a special core then "tooling costs" shoot up to the tune of 300-500 dollars before your material charges are added in. It is a common core material readily available that all of the companies stock as producers.

It is the shape and size that gets you in the end. Special dies to hold the hydraulically pressed ferrite/metglass dust into with a slight bit of binder.

If you go to Micro metals the whole list of various compounds added to your core is shown, metals such as Aluminum, iron, nickel, cobalt and many more or OXIDES these metals are OXIDIZED in form.

Information on "Bonding of Oxides" through the use of heat and pressure in the presences of chemical etching substances and high temperature binders are well known.

So like Dog-One has stated we better stick with the lower priced smaller cores for now. Yet when I thought about what Bill has done with higher frequencies it shouldn't be hard to get the 1000 watts Dog-One has for a starting goal for a transformer no bigger than a thin sinder block, copper included.

The Cores go up to 4" X 6" and can be added together as we see Bill doing to couple the growing coil area as wattage and size is increased to meet the need.


Also anyone who has a pain in the back side toroidal ring that is 6-8" in diameter can have it cut in half with a tile saw or ceramic cutting saw.

As the size of the core material increases so does the frequency lower. There maybe other factors to lower the operating frequency as well.

Excellent shift to over 90 degrees Dave. On the heating of the capacitor maybe the voltage ceiling of the cap should be higher? I know you are reading lower voltages with your meter. I have tried using 4X higher volt caps sometimes just for kicks to see what happened.

Heating generally relates to over loading, stress with accompanying friction and ultimately heating. I am sure you are aware of these basic facts.


Mike

I'm seeing good results at around 80 kHz when the secondaries are wired in series, resonating with a 10 nF series capacitor, and powering a small load such as a 3 volt lamp. This is where I obviously see incandescence coming from the secondary load while also seeing a negative power factor on the scope. The phase shift is obviously greater than 90 degrees. Still waiting on new, identical scope probes to arrive in the mail. But from the battery of tests I threw at these probes, I'm pretty sure what I am seeing is legitimate.

I'm still not sure how to measure my output in my secondaries to the fullest extent possible. I can find the resistive wattage with no problem, but I have a significant amount of heat emanating from my series resonating capacitor. I haven't quite wrapped my head around what I need to do to calculate the conductive losses in the dielectric material in the capacitors. It appears that the heat is actually coming from the dielectric like Dollard has spoken about. If anybody has any ideas, let me know.

I'd love to throw a parallel resonating capacitor on the primary tuned to the frequency that my secondaries resonate at. Ideally, I'd be able to get the oscillations started with a quick make and break power switch sequence and then let the oscillations grow until it burns itself up or falls out of resonance due to total saturation. This system is very dynamic. It is difficult to account for the many variables of varying inductance to get it right on the first try. I'll keep at it. Hopefully we can keep the circuit simple.

As far as your idea about secondary windings turn ratio, I think it is an interesting concept, but can't help but to think that you might be losing efficiency. By skipping turns on the primary toroid, you are effectively lowering your EMF applied to the secondaries. It just seems to me that you would want your primary and secondaries to be as fully connected and fully disconnected as possible, if that makes any sense.

I encourage everybody to pick up some of the 3r1 cores that Dog One referenced in the above quote. They are less than 3 bucks a pop and they do indeed show what appears to be power flowing back to the source. I spent way more on mine than that... This is what I've needed. Something I can study which will show me the way. It's pretty inspiring to see it manifest on your bench.

Good Luck All



Dave

[BroMikey]

Switchmode too?

Hi DeLorean

When winding coils are crunched in a software program the frequency must be considered. Do you know if this new software goes right up the scale?

It probably does but I can remember a time in the mid 90's that the information availability was all most nil. I remember calling one company asking them to teach me anything about their core rings and how a few turns of wire could be a design implement. They wanted me to sign a NON DISCLOSURE agreement.


Today 20 years later things have changed with everyone on board no problem software programs the works everyone knowing what to expect.

Still I think the schools only teach us what these gov controllers want us to know. The software idea is great thanks, I think a switchmode based one could help until two secondaries are used.

These simulations are very limited especially when we get to the altered flux path densities. I doubt most simulator could handle a problem it has never been designed to do.

Simulators come after a technology has been developed and used in the real world years later. The simulator helps the average Joe Experimenter (Like Me ) to calculate things out in seconds instead of the long hours needed by Engineering Techies.

Mike

For these types of transformer windings it might be necessary to turn the formulas for expected electrical behaviour from electrical values parameters to magnetic flux parameters.

why?

using 1 wire for winding around both the black core and the small one and then the same for winding for the small core only will create more than a change in transformer rating. the wire between the black and the small core wil create another kind of influence to the magnetic flux.

looking for a software based on magnetic flux calculations in a multi-core system could be a good idea for that reason.