Electric Motor Secrets

[uusedman]

This is the circuit in action. I am going to apply it to the motor once i get a chance. Changed a few things in the circuit, tomorrow will post the difference.

YouTube - Rotary Attraction circuit 3-1A

[Eric]

hehehe i am seeing a few to many "we's" here. i have had these ideas for well over a year now and i am following my own path based on observations i have seen in my experiments with my motors. it looks to me that you are jumping ahead again abit to fast. but thats up to you, i tried a 555 timer circuit awhile back but dropped it for a different idea. i wouldnt worry about the amp draw for the time being. there are a lot of other things that can be learned first with the basic circuit first. yes it may appear that your amps go up a bit when you load the shaft but to put it into perspective try comparing amp increase with your motor when you load the shaft with amp increase in a standard dc permanent mag motor when you load its shaft. the standard motors amp increase will still be far more dramatic. as to the duty cycle it seems like what your describing has more to do with timing than duty cycle. duty cycle deals with length and duration, not when/where to initiate/begin and collapse/end. but both are important parts. again i would make make sure to more thoroughly play with the basics. start with 1 steady ontime pulse, work on how to adjust the length and timing of this pulse and see how the motor behaves. its good to see you thinking this stuff through, now just try not to jump the gun and skip ahead. you dont have to build the perfect machine the first time. start with 1 pole then add poles and get all the poles running before worrying about chopping the dc.

keep in mind the secret is not really in the BEMF alone, its in understanding the relationship between the electric circuit, the magnetic circuit, and the mechanical energy can use.

cheers!
Eric

[uusedman]

I think i made a mistake in the circuit, that 555 IC timer should control pulse into the base of the transistor and not the way it is now.

[uusedman]

very nice!! i little different approach than i was thinking, which is good! its nice to see your ideas, not just a reproduction of my ideas/answers.

so here is some more of my thoughts and then you can share what you think about it.
it looks like your getting closer to what i was suggesting in regards to 2 duty cycles. i believe we can break the process down into 2, well maybe 3 categories.
1. electrical
2. magnetic
3. mechanical

the first duty cycle i observe is a magnetic/mechanical one. or how long do we need a magnetetic field to pull the rotor into alignment.

the second duty cycle i see is an electrical/magnetic. or how much energy(electricity) do we need to create the magnetic pull.

I believe we are on the right track and the secret of magnet attraction is in collecting successfully and efficiently the B EMF.

The first and second duty cycle can be answered in terms of rotor angle degree according to the place of rotor to the stator. If pulsed too soon or too late, the rotor will only stagger to make a revolution. There is the point of bliss of attracting the rotary to its peak. Whatever the duration is for attracting the rotor into alignment, should be cut into pulse (DC - DC - on DC). For the duration of the coils to saturate is much shorter than the duration of on time. Once saturation happens, any more energy going to the coil will only dissipate into heat and be wasted, unless, if we pulse the coil just enough to meet the required energy to saturate and open circuit to let that B EMF to charging source or maybe to the second coil that is attracting the opposing rotor. The higher the RPM's the shorter is the time duration. The angle duration should be the same since it is based on magnetic attraction and not time constraint.

This circuit is in the starting stage and I have not tested it, however, the idea is when the transistor is closed, the coils oscillate pulses. The Cap is at 1 microF which is a little high if we going to get high number, maybe it should be in the nano Farads.

Back to the question that originated this discussion, how will the AMP react when we put a load with the ideas we presented?

so far i see a few ways to design a solution.
1. figure out how much time is needed to pull the rotor, calculated from rpms and the width of the rotor then figure out how many balanced ontime pulses you would need per rotor pass
2. figure out how much time is needed to pull the rotor, calculated from rpms and the width of the rotor and design the rotor width small/short enough that at a certain rpm the time spent in the rotor pass is short enough to handle one balanced ontime pulse
3. figure out how much time is needed to pull the rotor, calculated from rpms and the width of the rotor and design the coils resistance or impedance not sure which or both to slow or lengthen the rise time of the ontime.

hope that helps!
Eric

How can we start on the above? I can offer my simple and basic help.

P.S. A part from this circuit I copied from learning electronics manual. Open Source

[Eric]

I had a similar scenario working on my Newman Motor, however, did not continue to establish a circuit with numerous pulsing when the circuit is closed. The following is what I believe should be done:

In order to established a electromagnetic field in our motor, the on time pulse, I think would be significantly short. Maybe 1/1000 seconds if not more. Therefore, in that time of pulse, we should open and close the circuit as many possible times to get the inductive collapse. The more pressure I put on the shaft, the more pulses I put through and the more inductive collapse I am retrieving. If the shaft slows down, on my motor currently, I am getting a longer pulse than if it is at a higher speed. Plus, only one duty cycle of recycled BEMF.

I believe the energy coming out of the inductive collapse is greater than the pulse that originated it, true or false?

What I meant in rest position is that, when one set of coils are pulsing the other set of coil are in idle awaiting its turn. I did a video to show 2 coils pulsing systematically one after the other.

i will check on that tranny.

I will try to get some pics on the scope of my emitter to collector, once i have some stuff down and understood

very nice!! i little different approach than i was thinking, which is good! its nice to see your ideas, not just a reproduction of my ideas/answers.

so here is some more of my thoughts and then you can share what you think about it.
it looks like your getting closer to what i was suggesting in regards to 2 duty cycles. i believe we can break the process down into 2, well maybe 3 categories.
1. electrical
2. magnetic
3. mechanical

the first duty cycle i observe is a magnetic/mechanical one. or how long do we need a magnetetic field to pull the rotor into alignment.

the second duty cycle i see is an electrical/magnetic. or how much energy(electricity) do we need to create the magnetic pull.

when i look at a scope shot of my motor i notice that the time it takes for a field to build in the core is a lot quicker than the time needed to pull the rotor into alignment. also in my first motor i used an adjustable window with an optotrigger, this allowed better control to change the ontime in a 1 pulse process, and if you stick a filament light bulb on the kickback and open the ontime up a lot its easy to see that you still only get 1 short flash on the kickback bulb. i wasn't sure why until peter helped me better understand that the ontime and the collapse operate under different mathematical principals.

the ontime is easier, it operates under the simple formula V=IR so the voltage of your source and resistance of your motor coil combined with the "time" spent in the ontime phase will tell us how much energy we are paying for at the source. but what then?

once we have spent energy to build a field in the core of the motor and then precede to turn the switch "off", does the amount of energy collected(recycled) also follow V=IR? no. its math is a lot more complicated i believe it can be found in this book Lindsay: Solenoids & Electromagnets i am still rereading that book to get a better understanding of the math. but for now i think the important point is that the "rule" is completely different. as i understand it, the amount of energy returned is not a function of how long we run the ontime but instead its a function of how strong the magnetic field is (amperturns) when we kill the switch and the impedance of the motor coil plus the load the kickback is connected to. now consider that when you use a low gauge wire (say 18 gauge) and apply your source the rise time(time needed to raise/build a magnetic field) is incredibly short. 2 things can determine when this initial process is done.
1. the voltage of your source in conjunction with the resistance of your coil (v=ir) has achieved all the amps times the number of turns in your coil(amperturns) it can. or 2. your core material cant accept anymore magnetic field energy(is saturated).

once this point has been reached "no more energy can be collected when you kill the switch" so if the ontime is left on longer than this point the, field is maxed, and is no longer "storing" more energy, all you are doing is allowing more(exess) amps to travel freely through the coil to drain/short your source. when this is understood you might be able to see what i mean by 2 duty cycles.
what you want to do is find a balance of how much time(energy=amps*time) is needed to build the field to its max then kill the switch and collect/convert as much "stored magnetic energy" into generated electricity back to the system. to answer another question of yours. where you believe you are getting more energy from the kickback than what you put into the ontime, the answer is no. the electric circuit used to "run" the motor is/was never intended to be cop>1 (overunity) the magic is not in the electric circuit. if you get 70% back that's pretty good! this is why i like to use the word "recycle" when talking about the electrical part. the "secret", if you want to call it that is in measuring how much "total" mechanical energy you can harvest from the shaft after you "recycle" the 70% back into the "runtime" process. if you want something more conceptual to read about recycling electrons then i would get this book "Energy Conserver Theory" by George Wiseman found here Energy Conserver Theory, Book 1 [4901.99.00.503] - $8.00 : Eagle-Research Store

so we have an electrical/magnetic proccess (duty cycle) or balancing the energy spent in the ontime with the energy recycled in the collapse
and a magnetic/mechanical proccess (duty cycle) time spent useing a magnetic field to pull in the rotor

so far i see a few ways to design a solution.
1. figure out how much time is needed to pull the rotor, calculated from rpms and the width of the rotor then figure out how many balanced ontime pulses you would need per rotor pass
2. figure out how much time is needed to pull the rotor, calculated from rpms and the width of the rotor and design the rotor width small/short enough that at a certain rpm the time spent in the rotor pass is short enough to handle one balanced ontime pulse
3. figure out how much time is needed to pull the rotor, calculated from rpms and the width of the rotor and design the coils resistance or impedance not sure which or both to slow or lengthen the rise time of the ontime.

anouther test you can try is to go back to just 2 poles/coils, ties both run batts in series for 24v, use each tranny circuit for each pole, you will want both reeds to fire at the same time(paralel) run only 1 pole/coil from the 24v source and dump the kickback into that big blue cap you have. the cap will now be source 2 for the other pole/coil so tie the second tranny circuit into the cap source and dump the kickback from the 2nd pole into a charge batt. in my weed wacker motor setup the rpms started out slow then increased more as the voltage on the cap got higher for the 2nd pole, this is like running a second motor on recycled energy alone and then you are also recycling some of the recycled energy again into a charge batt! after you play with
that you can come up with other ways to tie in the other poles.

hope that helps!
Eric

[uusedman]

Looking good Uusedman, nice video.
Now with only 2 magnets just use your RPM guage and divide by 2.
You said your cap was in line with your run battery, so are your run batteries 2 volt or 12 volt? If its only 2 volts your total draw and that circuit is next to nothing only .2 watts!

I have 2 circuit, each run battery is 12 V. that is about 1.2 watts which is still cool. The question is, how efficient is the motor?

[Mark]

Looking good Uusedman, nice video.
Now with only 2 magnets just use your RPM guage and divide by 2.
You said your cap was in line with your run battery, so are your run batteries 2 volt or 12 volt? If its only 2 volts your total draw and that circuit is next to nothing only .2 watts!

[LowTechIsCool]

regenerative break

Hi all,

What would happen if you wanted to use the motor as a break?

as in, you use the motor in a car and you want to stop, so you run a series of charging pulses and recovery pulses? Since the load wont be stopped instantly, the rotor will unalign and the inductance of the stator will decrease, you might get some impressive recovery.

Just brainstorming at this point: Image you are operating the motor normally, not as a break, but instead of having absolutely no current at the point of rotor-stator alignment, you have the stator still containing full current and you switch to recover mode at the point of alignment. I am sure this wont help with torque ripple, and you would need some super fun programming on a microcontroller with a position encoder, but could the large recovery impulse make up for the loss of torque?

-Chris Corkum

[uusedman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hjwtqtXlQs

newest improvements.

[uusedman]

even if you dont have the dvd right now its good to see you thinking about the process! although i dont understand what you mean by "rest position" are you refering to stevens diagram? the relax position is just a clarifcation that the colapsing field might not be finnished yet depending on what sort of material is used in the core of the motor. if you are just using 1 pulse per rotor pass than consider that you have 2 pulses per revolution you are running at what 1500 rpm which is 25 rev per second which would give you 50 pulses per sec or 50hertz
thats really low so i dont think you have to worry about the extra relax time i would focus on understanding the first two parts the "on pulse" or energy required/consumed to build the field and the off time required to collapse the field and capture/recycle energy back into the system. these 2 are very important parts to understand and think about. how much ontime do you need? how much will you get back in the collapse? jetis confirmed that when he loaded his motor his amps increased also but he got more recovery, but remember! in jetis's circuit he is chopping his ontime up many times per pass of the rotor. you arnt yet, so you first need to ask your self why if jetis doing that? if you slow your shaft down on your motor what does that do to your ontime? what does that do to your offtime?

hope that helps!
Eric

oh and one other thing i forgot about is you tranny staying at room temp? or is it getting warm? if its getting warm your tranny might not be opening all the way and then it can also function as a resistor which is why it might be getting warm. are you still useing 470ohm resistors for your transistor bridge?
i would get a range of pairs from 1/2watt to 2watt from 100ohms up to the 470ohm you have. and try lowering the resistance, you want the tranny to open all the way fast and clean. but pay attention to how hot the resistor bridge gets that will tell you if your resistance is too low.

I had a similar scenario working on my Newman Motor, however, did not continue to establish a circuit with numerous pulsing when the circuit is closed. The following is what I believe should be done:

In order to established a electromagnetic field in our motor, the on time pulse, I think would be significantly short. Maybe 1/1000 seconds if not more. Therefore, in that time of pulse, we should open and close the circuit as many possible times to get the inductive collapse. The more pressure I put on the shaft, the more pulses I put through and the more inductive collapse I am retrieving. If the shaft slows down, on my motor currently, I am getting a longer pulse than if it is at a higher speed. Plus, only one duty cycle of recycled BEMF.

I believe the energy coming out of the inductive collapse is greater than the pulse that originated it, true or false?

What I meant in rest position is that, when one set of coils are pulsing the other set of coil are in idle awaiting its turn. I did a video to show 2 coils pulsing systematically one after the other.

i will check on that tranny.

I will try to get some pics on the scope of my emitter to collector, once i have some stuff down and understood

[Eric]

oh if you want to see a scope shot of my first motor to get an idea of what the on time and off time look like go here Eric's page, Photos these are shots taken accross the emmitter to collector

[Eric]

About painting the spining disc black, should i just paint over the magnets black and leave one shinny. Mark had mentioned that.

um, no to be more specific you have the magnets attached to the "side" of the spinning disk, but if you look directly down on the disk from the top (top down view) you have a nice flat smooth spinning circle,disk,plate
however you choose to think about it. paint that black then put one reflective dot on that flat disk. even if you paint the magnets, because the rest of the aluminum motor housing provides a light colored back drop, your optical gun might still pick up 4 pulses per rev or worse it might pick some up some of the time. the best approuch is a continuous black background with 1 very reflective spinning dot

I will buy another wet cell 12V battery to play with today to fix the limiting ampere. Well post the results as soon as I get that info. Also, the loads whether it is bulb cap or battery, that info will be posted.

keep in mind that you can dump the kick back into anouther seperate coil
as well.

As far as the mechanical switch goes, I will try to make some adjustments, but, for the time being the reed switch is doing a good job. You are correct, if my RPM starts to get in the 2000+, the magnets will fly if not glued, so that will have to be fixed as soon as I figure out a way.

if you are going to use the reed i would buy some much smaller dot magnets from radioshack or simmilar store. you dont need those big guys glued on the disk.

How many turns should the inductor be for each pole (16 gauge)? Should I use 18 or 16?

well the larger the gauge the less voltage you need just keep in mind that semiconductor componets have a voltage drop so if you run this at 12v or less the voltage drop subtracts a larger percentage of your efficancy so there are also benifits to a higher supply and a smaller gauge. personally i crammed as meny turns as i could fit on to my version 3 motor without having the rotor interfere with the coils. but if you want to use some math to calculate amper turns then counting the turns would be benificial.

And yes, I think it is time I take Jetis and your plans to do a bi-filar inductor.

hehehe i dont. i would play with the existing coils first since you know they are insulated
try and use them first and do more than 2 poles. also i like to remind my self when i work on a motor with more than one pole that, control wise, each pole can be viewed as a seperate motor circuit and , if you use a cap to collect the kickback from one pole you can used anouther simple reedswitch control circuit to dump that into anouther pole of the motor. so there is a lot you can learn first before doing the bifilar. i didnt even consider a bifilar untill my 3rd motor. it was my 2nd motor, a modified 2 pole weed wacker motor that has 2 poles with 1 strand of wire each pole, that gave my an idea for how to control a bifilar in my 3rd motor. and its a very diferent idea from jetis's so like i said it helps to be patient and learn from your tests. who knows maybe you will discover a better way than eather one of us. so try to learn and figure out first why and how "you" want to use a bifilar rather than just copying our attempts.

As far as the AMP increase upon load the shaft, I think when the motor is in the rest position, that is when the motor is slowing the rpm which is telling the power source to give more out. In conclusion, 2 fire position should be intact, when 4 poles are pulsing the other 4 are resting, and as soon as the pulse is over from the first set of poles the resting poles pulse.

even if you dont have the dvd right now its good to see you thinking about the process! although i dont understand what you mean by "rest position" are you refering to stevens diagram? the relax position is just a clarifcation that the colapsing field might not be finnished yet depending on what sort of material is used in the core of the motor. if you are just using 1 pulse per rotor pass than consider that you have 2 pulses per revolution you are running at what 1500 rpm which is 25 rev per second which would give you 50 pulses per sec or 50hertz
thats really low so i dont think you have to worry about the extra relax time i would focus on understanding the first two parts the "on pulse" or energy required/consumed to build the field and the off time required to collapse the field and capture/recycle energy back into the system. these 2 are very important parts to understand and think about. how much ontime do you need? how much will you get back in the collapse? jetis confirmed that when he loaded his motor his amps increased also but he got more recovery, but remember! in jetis's circuit he is chopping his ontime up many times per pass of the rotor. you arnt yet, so you first need to ask your self why if jetis doing that? if you slow your shaft down on your motor what does that do to your ontime? what does that do to your offtime?

hope that helps!
Eric

oh and one other thing i forgot about is you tranny staying at room temp? or is it getting warm? if its getting warm your tranny might not be opening all the way and then it can also function as a resistor which is why it might be getting warm. are you still useing 470ohm resistors for your transistor bridge?
i would get a range of pairs from 1/2watt to 2watt from 100ohms up to the 470ohm you have. and try lowering the resistance, you want the tranny to open all the way fast and clean. but pay attention to how hot the resistor bridge gets that will tell you if your resistance is too low.

[uusedman]

just a quick note.

the inductor that originally came with the motor was not bare like I thought, it has resin, and I did put it on the motor and is working.

For those who bought this motor, you can use the stators that are already on the motor, you just have to attach them correctly.

[uusedman]

@eric

I am going to get the AC AMP fixed I don't know how it went over my head.

About painting the spining disc black, should i just paint over the magnets black and leave one shinny. Mark had mentioned that.

I will buy another wet cell 12V battery to play with today to fix the limiting ampere. Well post the results as soon as I get that info. Also, the loads whether it is bulb cap or battery, that info will be posted.

As far as the mechanical switch goes, I will try to make some adjustments, but, for the time being the reed switch is doing a good job. You are correct, if my RPM starts to get in the 2000+, the magnets will fly if not glued, so that will have to be fixed as soon as I figure out a way.

How many turns should the inductor be for each pole (16 gauge)? Should I use 18 or 16?

And yes, I think it is time I take Jetis and your plans to do a bi-filar inductor.

I had lost my DVD for electric motor secrets, so I order it and bunch other DVD. It is a way to learn and support Dr. Lindemann.

As far as the AMP increase upon load the shaft, I think when the motor is in the rest position, that is when the motor is slowing the rpm which is telling the power source to give more out. In conclusion, 2 fire position should be intact, when 4 poles are pulsing the other 4 are resting, and as soon as the pulse is over from the first set of poles the resting poles pulse.

[peper10]

Hi everybody!!!!

I highly suggest you to see the ENERGY TECHNOLOGY NOW chanel on
Youtube...
gotoluc already see some vids but nobody mention the vids on here...
There some new way to harness the emf and used it..
If Aaron wants me to start a new tread it`s fine with me,i just don`t want
to stast a tread for nothing...
THERE SO MUCH TREAD STARTED RITH NOW,that sometimes a tread is redirect and talking the same thing as the previous!!!!!!!!
Anyway i hope you enjoy the viewing of this guy and maybe lighting new
idea.....
They already start a tread on OVERUNITY.COM....
Thanks!!

Alain