Future Energy hydroxy cell

[rick123]

Freddy seems to say things that make no sense. Why did he state "sacrificial anode"? I see no erosion of his tubes comparing that vid to previous pictures.

Why does he state 3 octave difference and not give any reference to a frequency? From what I read you cut frequency in half to move one octave, so if I have a 3/4 inch tube that has a pitch of 1.2k the other tube needs to be at 150 hz (3 octaves lower) or 9.6k (3 octaves higher).

When he anneals the tubes, what is he going to do? Stick them in a box of carbon and put them in an oven or open fire? Get er done already...

If Freddy can run his truck %100 on HHO, I think he is lying or got it to work by accident and is trying to act like he knows what is going on but he does not.

Do any of you know how to make the tubes resonate 180 degrees out of phase?


Here is Freddy un-altered PWM

[adam_mizer]

FF Cell

Try to find this post.
This is a post answer right from Freddy himself:

Fred@FEC
We are not here to scam anyone! Nor are we trying to sell anything to anyone. Please come and see for yourself. Production with the early prototypes netted us only 11.9LPM with over 100 amps! Not until contemplating the best way to cause more chaos in the pressure vessel, analyzing why we were not getting much production, hours of fluid model programs of the flow dynamics of the cell, we have found the following will set you, your HHO project, and your minds free!! The inner tubes are tuned 180 degrees out of phase with the outer tubes. The PWM is tuned to the inner tube resonant frequency. The large center tube set are tuned 4 octaves lower than the outer small pairs. NO coffee this mourning so I am doing the best I can--anyhow-----The square wave pattern produced with the PWM is not the best for accelerating molecules, for it happens so fast, and the molecular density of the water is so low that very few molecules are picked up and propelled. Now if there was some way to build an acceleration ramp and deceleration ramp into the sign wave then in theory we would be able to disrupt the molecular bond of the water more by picking up and accelerating more mass. Well much by accident I discovered that by adding ferrous oxide 10% by weight to the epoxy we use to seal and firmly mount the tubes in the bottom of the vessel, and seal the electromagnetic coils on the bottom of the vessel, it creates a very slow charging and slow discharging capacitor, which smoothes out the sine wave resembling a natural sound wave when viewed on the scope. Also we have achieved further gains in production by working with the upper harmonics of the tube resonance frequency. Also the center tubes have a clearance of 1mm and produce the most heat, the outer tubes are smaller and have a 2mm clearance and run relatively cool, plus having four different tube lengths, diameters, tube thicknesses, adds to the discordant resonance in the vessel. Also take into account that we are producing allot of free radical electrons which act to ionize the HHO and stabilize it when pressurized. The when injected and metered directly into the intake port, decompresses with compression stroke of the motor, a little spark---wala---lots of energy----Please prove me wrong! I personally am doing this for my grandchildren. I would like them to have a world to inherent, that at least has air to breath, and no oil demigod to die for!!!!I have helped as many people as I can perfect tier projects, and this is not my first rodeo with HHO. So please keep your sharp words to yourself until you have ammo to shoot Please!!!


Tried to upload a 970kb picture, it won't go.

[adam_mizer]

FF Cell

Oh forgot to mention no where have I seen here posted about the annealed SS tubing. It undergoes a heat process too! Soften the steel.

[Farrah Day]

The info was pulled because the open source now changed to an upcoming e-book, which for all I know could change too. I'll have to check my sent email folder when I had first sent this information

Oh...Ooo. Well this is new to me... and I expect new to a lot of people here too.

FF does mention that he doped the epoxy resin at the base with rust, which itself raises a lot of questions, but I've seen or heard nothing of coils at the bottom.

Anyway, after what you've just stated, I've got a feeling Freddy's out to make some money afterall, and this is all going the way of a big fat scam!

[lamare]

The walls are stiff, because of the metal, so you can't get accoustic resonance perpendicular with respect to the tube walls. The resonance has only one way to go and that is in the length of the pipes.

Hmm. This is not entirely correct. You can have resonance in both directions, but the resonance frequencies in the length direction of the pipes are much lower then the frequencies between the pipes, because of the difference in distance the sound has to travel. This is analog to the difference between closed versus open cylinders:
Acoustic resonance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Note that in this example, the tube is open or half open....

Both stiff walls and open ends are possible.....

[adam_mizer]

FF Cell

Yes the first stuff he (wrote or video'd) explained, in there was a certain PWM from ebay but it makes no difference what PWM it is in that the PWM must handle a high continuous current and this should equate to a very high pulsed current.
Looking into this I found the MX068 model was the same.
Then he stated he modified it to 15hz. Changed the mosfets to a stronger size (higher current) even though the mosfets on this unit could handle an enormous amount of pulsed current he went slightly higher.

Lets see if I can find this: (no) if its available it is now harder to find.
Watching this FF stuff real thorough right from the beggining and everytime I posted a find (on Yahoo group) he pulled video's and he pulled answered email texts at his you-tube and anywhere else. I saved some things like pictures (and he pulled pictures too!) but the video's were not saved. He edited out this information. Have no clue why as he was going to be open source at first.

Anyways take my word or not its a fact the PWM was modified for 15hz and the mosfets exchanged out as he stated this information at the beginning. (I swear on the BIBLE).

That field is so close to the 14.3hz Schuman Resonance which are EARTH magnetic field resonant frequencies (check Wiki). Pulsing a magnetic coil at these Schuman resonant frequency's will show you that the magnetic field becomes its full strength at those peaks. Thats a real easy to test and nice to see.

Now the e-coils on bottom of the tubes were also mentioned in the beginning and trying to find this info, it seems its not available. I'll email you a picture if you want and copy's of my early emails with the information I found before it was edited out. He doesn't show the full coil on bottom because its in the epoxy but the pictures were high enough resolution to blow up 400% and see the wires. Besides that he stated this a s a fact at the beginning.

The info was pulled because the open source now changed to an upcoming e-book, which for all I know could change too. I'll have to check my sent email folder when I had first sent this information.

[Farrah Day]

eclipz, FF appears to be using an off the shelf PWM, which provides dc pulses of a user adjustable frequency, with a gating frequency option.

What's happened to him I wonder? I was only joking about him 'popping his clogs' before he gives up the secrets!

[eclipz]

Maybe all is not only just 1 frequency maybe is more like what mike explain in this thread.

None Electrolytic Splitting Of H2o

It kinda look like that to me. Anyone have tried that?
I'll probably going to try it soon.

[Farrah Day]

Freddy says he pulses at 15hz which is very close to Schuman resonant peak at 14.3hz. Why was it chosen, it is a powerful magnetic field.
The part I have not seen discussed yet is there are magnetic coils on the bottom of the cell, personally they appear to be wrapped on the studs to the outer tube (ones with the brass tubes). This add's another interesting force into the equation. Now top that all off with 60psi in the cell housing. Several applied forces which all have not been experimented together or at least I havn't seen or read anything about this yet.

Hi Adam, where does FF say he pulses at 15Hz? I may have missed this, but it's hard to see where 15Hz relates to his (now deleted) tube tuning video.

Why are you relating frequency to a 'powerful magnetic field'?

What magnetic coils on the bottom of the cell? How do you know this, FF hasn't disclosed the schematics or a photo of this yet... has he? Brass tubes? You've lost me - can you provide a link?

[lamare]

[4/2/2007 11:29:10 PM] Tao says: UNTIL, I just watched that video
again..........
[4/2/2007 11:29:50 PM] Tao says: Look at what Dave was pulsing his DC at in
the video: 5714Hz!!!! At 1:11 in the video you can see what he was pulsing
at.......
[4/2/2007 11:30:58 PM] Tao says: Based on the equation for acoustic
resonance, Dave was pulsing his tubes at the EXACT frequency at which those
tubes will resonate ACOUSTICALLY in FRESH WATER... So, my finding was
basically his: Dave found the BEST gas production at the VERY SAME frequency
that just so happens to be where his tubes resonate ACOUSTICALLY IN WATER
... HMMM...
Maybe it is nothing at all but a coincidence, but maybe there is just
something to it........................

Something else about the tuning because I can't wrap my head around yet I believe the 2mm gap of the small tubes is also a harmonic of the open tube frequency. Then add the the large tube-set at 4 octives below the small tubes and its gap of 1mm another harmonic of the picture.

There has to be some intense science behind this to achieve the final outcome that just hasn't been evaluated yet.

OF COURSE!!

The pipes are just like the pipes in an organ, for example. The walls are stiff, because of the metal, so you can't get accoustic resonance perpendicular with respect to the tube walls. The resonance has only one way to go and that is in the length of the pipes. And the way to keep it going is by exciting it electrically, meanwhile providing power extracted from the electric field.

Awesome find!!

One more piece of the puzzle dropping into place.

[adam_mizer]

FF cell

Ive been following along, you have a great discussion.
Maybe I have missed certain things but I'll input this anyway.

Freddy says he pulses at 15hz which is very close to Schuman resonant peak at 14.3hz. Why was it chosen, it is a powerful magnetic field.
The part I have not seen discussed yet is there are magnetic coils on the bottom of the cell, personally they appear to be wrapped on the studs to the outer tube (ones with the brass tubes). This add's another interesting force into the equation. Now top that all off with 60psi in the cell housing. Several applied forces which all have not been experimented together or at least I havn't seen or read anything about this yet.

The tubes are tuned and here is an excerp from emails years ago talking about Lawtons tubes:
[4/1/2007 3:40:25 PM] Tao says: Just doing a simple calculation a tube in
plain fresh water, the equation from
Acoustic resonance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia shows f=(n*v)/(2*L) where n corresponds to the harmonic, v is the speed of sound in the water, and L is
the length of the tube....
So, lets simplify this equation, n can be always 1, v is 1435 m/s in fresh
water according to Wikipedia.
So, f = (1*1435)/(2*L) = 717.5 / L = f , Just for fun, lets take the
frequency Dave was producing Hydroxy at in his latest video on Youtube:
3425.781Hz
So, 3425.781 = 717.5 / L , L = 717.5 / 3425.781 = 0.21 meters , So that
would be 8.27 inches long.... So, how long in inches are Dave's tubes? Just
curious........
[4/2/2007 11:26:20 PM] Tao says: So, I asked how long Dave's tubes were,
well, I looked up how long they were from an old post Dave did on the
original forum back in 2004...
[4/2/2007 11:26:44 PM] Tao says: Dave said that his tubes were about
12.5-13cm (which is about 5 inches long)
[4/2/2007 11:27:39 PM] Tao says: so, calculating that into the equation:
717.5 / L = f , we have 717.5 / 0.1275 = f , so f = about 5650Hz
[4/2/2007 11:28:21 PM] Tao says: So, based on what it says at the END of
that video on youtube, it says that the hydroxy was being produced at
3425.78Hz
[4/2/2007 11:29:00 PM] Tao says: BUT, they acoustic frequency came out to be
5650Hz, so I said, 'oh, too bad' seems there isn't much of a connection, I
guess I need to do more research'
[4/2/2007 11:29:10 PM] Tao says: UNTIL, I just watched that video
again..........
[4/2/2007 11:29:50 PM] Tao says: Look at what Dave was pulsing his DC at in
the video: 5714Hz!!!! At 1:11 in the video you can see what he was pulsing
at.......
[4/2/2007 11:30:58 PM] Tao says: Based on the equation for acoustic
resonance, Dave was pulsing his tubes at the EXACT frequency at which those
tubes will resonate ACOUSTICALLY in FRESH WATER... So, my finding was
basically his: Dave found the BEST gas production at the VERY SAME frequency
that just so happens to be where his tubes resonate ACOUSTICALLY IN WATER
... HMMM...
Maybe it is nothing at all but a coincidence, but maybe there is just
something to it........................

Something else about the tuning because I can't wrap my head around yet I believe the 2mm gap of the small tubes is also a harmonic of the open tube frequency. Then add the the large tube-set at 4 octives below the small tubes and its gap of 1mm another harmonic of the picture.

There has to be some intense science behind this to achieve the final outcome that just hasn't been evaluated yet.

[Vickers]

Hmmm...Hijacked thread. Back to the start.
Some points of interest here.

The cell is pressurized. Therefore the boiling point has been raised. Which will result in higher temp and more efficiency.

Stand alone system. Not a joke booster.

HHO is injected via fuel rail???????? Has to be. Explains pressurization.

ECU will adjust to suit. Has no choice. In fact there is no reason I know why It would fail for hho only system.... as long as production flow is sufficient.

May have used alloy anode in first design and subsequently realized the benefits of high heat pressurized electrolysis????

Uses PWM to control input current once cell has reached operating temp?(like a stove simmer stat)? Dont take much energy to keep water boiling. Kinda like pushing a kid on a swing. A few good shoves at first and then use your little finger to maintain momentum.

He uses a dryer?? Not to too sure why. I would have thought vapor would be advantages in this system.

[lamare]

So, at least from my point of view, we need a small dc standing voltage on the electrodes, which may just be helped by the formation of a dielectric mineral build up (conditioning), and we need to apply an alternating electric field that best induces ionisation. It may be that this is frequency related, but it may also be voltage related, one or the other, or both - or indeed perhaps the waveform is critical. Of course if it is voltage related and the higher the better, then having the cells as part of a tuned LC circuit then starts to make sense.

In this scenario, things are quite simple. There are no mysterious or exotic reactions taking place and there is no need for inner and outer tube tuning as there are no physical oscillations of the tubes. We still get the same reactions occuring at the electrodes as in normal electrolysis, but we are simply inducing ionisation far more efficiently.

There would be no need to explain the gains via radiant energy or the aether (which people often feel the need to do), instead, the cell itself simply becomes the source of the greater current flow. There would still be losses due to the resistance of the water to the passage of ionic species, but it would be far more efficient as a whole.

If this is the case, we simply need to determine what voltage waveform or pulsed voltage frequency has the greatest effect on the water molecule.

It really might just be that we've been looking too hard and thinking too deep. Mind you, none of it is helped by some of the weird and wonderful so-called science that inventors in the past have posted by way of an explanation. It may seem to be over-Faraday, but that would be because of where the measurements are taken from - in reality, the gases evolved would be abiding fully by Faraday's Laws of Electrolysis.

To round off then, what I'd most like to see is the signal across FF's WFC... preferably before he pops his clogs!

I think you are on the right track, good to read things are starting to make sense. I think what is important regarding "tuning" of the tubes is that the distance between the tubes is as constant as possible, cause that is one of the parameters that determines the resonance frequency of the fluid in between the tubes. And resonance is one of the keys by which you are able to draw power from the ether.

[Farrah Day]

Looks like Fred Wells is claiming the truck is running on a version similar to these plans

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/6420-hydro-gen-fuel-system.html

Not sure whether to laugh or cry

Tad

I had exactly the same thoughts when he provided a link to the earlier plans, but assumed that this new unit must be substantially different. Though I am now just beginning to wonder if he's simply drawing more current through it.

Just a few other thoughts while we wait for breaking news from FF.

Firstly, I'm extremely surprised that he can get away with driving the vehicle on either gasoline or hydroxy without altering the timing. This does seem a little odd to me.

Does anyone know the timing of that particular Dodge truck? Surely it must fire well after TDC, otherwise the engine would be making some very funny noises and have blown up well before the 3000 miles they claim to have driven on hydroxy.

Tad, regarding what happens at so-called resonance, I've long thought that this has nothing particularly to do with the electronics resonating, and more to do with the water ionising.

We know that if we draw a current through water, that intermolecular collisions and near misses generate electric fields that occasionally add enough energy to a water molecule to cause it to ionise, and that this is all the current really does. The ionic species are then drawn by the voltage potential on the electrodes which goes some way to prevent the ions reforming as water and of course provides the charge exchange medium.

So the current not only causes ionisation, but those ionic species then become part of the current, which then as they are drawn to the electrodes can induce further ionisation. But drawing the initial current through the cell is inefficient, and very hit and miss.

My take on this when pulsing is this:

By pulsing the voltage across the electrodes, the associated electric field is inducing the water to ionise. The the resulting ionic species are the drawn apart and attracted to the voltage on the electrodes, but the key thing is that we no longer need to draw a heavy current through the cell from the supply to induce ionisation.

As ionisation is an endothermic process, this would also explain why these cells are said to remain relatively cool.

So, at least from my point of view, we need a small dc standing voltage on the electrodes, which may just be helped by the formation of a dielectric mineral build up (conditioning), and we need to apply an alternating electric field that best induces ionisation. It may be that this is frequency related, but it may also be voltage related, one or the other, or both - or indeed perhaps the waveform is critical. Of course if it is voltage related and the higher the better, then having the cells as part of a tuned LC circuit then starts to make sense.

In this scenario, things are quite simple. There are no mysterious or exotic reactions taking place and there is no need for inner and outer tube tuning as there are no physical oscillations of the tubes. We still get the same reactions occuring at the electrodes as in normal electrolysis, but we are simply inducing ionisation far more efficiently.

There would be no need to explain the gains via radiant energy or the aether (which people often feel the need to do), instead, the cell itself simply becomes the source of the greater current flow. There would still be losses due to the resistance of the water to the passage of ionic species, but it would be far more efficient as a whole.

If this is the case, we simply need to determine what voltage waveform or pulsed voltage frequency has the greatest effect on the water molecule.

It really might just be that we've been looking too hard and thinking too deep. Mind you, none of it is helped by some of the weird and wonderful so-called science that inventors in the past have posted by way of an explanation. It may seem to be over-Faraday, but that would be because of where the measurements are taken from - in reality, the gases evolved would be abiding fully by Faraday's Laws of Electrolysis.

To round off then, what I'd most like to see is the signal across FF's WFC... preferably before he pops his clogs!

[UncleFester]

Looks like Fred Wells is claiming the truck is running on a version similar to these plans

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/6420-hydro-gen-fuel-system.html

Not sure whether to laugh or cry

Tad