Ionization & Water Fuel

[Oneminde]

Corona discharge produces Ozone but do you think that it also produces Positive Nitrogen Ions?

You need electron reduction - that is the first half of the reaction. You need to replace the valance electrons with certain atoms....

Com on you guy's - is there no one that actually see all of this by now????

[sucahyo]

Haber process - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As the temperature increases, the equilibrium is shifted and hence, the amount of product drops dramatically according to the Van't Hoff equation. Thus one might suppose that a low temperature is to be used and some other means to increase rate. However, the c to be efficient.

High temperature is required by the catalyst to work, not by the NH3 reaction.

This graph bellow means there will be more NH3 at lower temperature:


They don't use spark at NH3 plant for safety I guess...


BTW, after reading the post, I still don't understand what is the relation between limiting reagent and the death of nitrogen theory.

[pengrove]

Corona discharge produces Ozone but do you think that it also produces Positive Nitrogen Ions?

[sebosfato]

[sucahyo]

Searching the net on power consumption for corona discharge systems and found this paper:
PowerPoint Presentation - Energy-efficient transient plasma ignition

Thanks . Lol, that article is what I was trying to find yesterday.

I found this instead:

5.3 Ionization System
An effective ionization plate must be capable of interacting with the ionized particles that it creates without the complications of uncontrolled arcing. The method of ionization for this study is to pass the uniformly dispersed seed particles though a high voltage DC electric field, known as field ionization. For this case, a strong electric field forcibly extracts an electron from an atom. By charge exchange ionization, electrons are exchanged with another atom through the outer valence shells. The dimensions of the electrodes are dictated by the minimum separation distance required to prevent arcing [89]. Thin electrodes also tend to produce more of a corona discharge effect due to the concentration of charge on sharp surfaces. Using these principles, an ionization actuation plate was constructed with five electrodes (two positive, three ground) using approximately a one inch spacing between each. A 20 kVDC Glassman power supply is used to generate the electric field. For the maximum voltage, the electrode spacing is close to the minimum requirement to prevent arcing (roughly 1 mm of separation per kV for air under normal conditions). Since the seeded air has an elevated electrical conductivity, arcing is prone to occur. However, it is hypothesized that the air flow will somewhat reduce the tendency of arcing between the electrodes. Simple experiments conducted thus far using the ionization plate showed that an arc can be effectively "blown out" by a low-speed flow. Therefore, it is plausible that DC ionization of seeded air using a glow discharge can still take place without arcing although there may be a limited range of operation between conditions that suppress arcing while generating an appreciable amount of ionized particles.

It seems silent discharge mentioned in 100 years old book is the corona produced by sharp point not the arc. However, my experiment show that whenever corona starting to appear, it produce loud noise. I can make video because the spark jam my keyboard....

I think everyone should read this:Tim

I notice flaw in his chemistry at the first post of his theory thread. He won't answer my question about it, I don't think I will answer that. It is about how he calculate energy of water in and water out.

In here we talk more about water+ambient air in and something else out before combustion chamber.

[Oneminde]

I think everyone should read this:
Tim

There is a reason why H2opower is not here and we like that. Them who wants to follow h2opower can do so in other forums, there is also a reason why he do not post here.

This tread is no longer limited to Meyer, so this eliminates that post - the energy content and balenced equetions is still needed to calculate production rate and fuel concumption - but I think I can speak for most here when I rant you on the fact that no one besides h2opower is "limited" to use the exact same amount water / hdyrogen avalible. This is only a "fact" if a similar VW engine is used etc ... phu, I am so tired of reading this stuff sometimes.

H2Opower refuses to change and see facta that is presented here over and over again and everyone can do energy calculations. The only reason h2opower is used here is becouse you do not understand the physical reaction that are involved to form nitrogne tri-hydrogen. Energy concumption is NOT the only situation you need to solve, you are also dealing with fuel handeling inside you're engine ... Try to compress hydrogen gas over time in an piston engine and see what happens, that is the only way you will change you're direction and research angle.

Liqiud fuel is needed during compression to maintane the fuel within the cylinders if we look at a "normal" piston engine - forget all other engines becouse that is not what this is about, it is about a fuel conversion for 99% of existing car models and the engine version used is almost always the Otto Cycle static pressure port engine.

"But we have gas engines" - uhm ... LPG and CNG - ya, but they are still larger molecules then H2 ...

Normal hydrogen filled cars use cryogenic hydrogen = liquid prior to combustion - weird huh. aka it is only in a gasues state during expantion

[chasson321]

last edit...

[vrand]

Sorry but for me don't have sense.. I suggest you to study pulsed corona discharge.. Regards

Searching the net on power consumption for corona discharge systems and found this paper:
PowerPoint Presentation - Energy-efficient transient plasma ignition





Regards, Mike R.

[pengrove]

For last time.. I can't write complete process but I can help you to open your mind. The story start from old experimenters like ArchieBlue with the creation of nitrous hydroxide.. In fact nitrous hydroxide don't exist, is just an name for identified new molecule.. if you see ArchieBlue patent him mix air inside electrolytic cell for obtain nitrous hydroxide; that some years ago.. today appear that can be possible that nitrous hydroxide can be ammonia NH3 but as you know we use water that chemically is H-H-O, if 1+1=2 the same is for atoms and molecules.. In all case for run the process you need also energy or for understand better e- .. you can use low voltage and high current or viceversa.. for that you can use standard electrolytic cell like Bob Boyce or other device.. I suggest to see all days the first diagram system of meyer posted from Sucahyo..

Boyce and Archieblue both use Electrolyte. I though that Electrolyte would keep the reaction from working properly?

[tutanka]

Can you explain the process? Are you ionizing the the steam with the nitrogen at the same time? If so you must also have a magnetic field to keep the oxygen from recombining with the hydrogen. Is 18kv DC enough? I have a static generating power supply here. I am not so sure about the electrode configuration at this point. Your discharge tube design would be interesting to see. How much pressure and what kind of temperatures are we talking about here? The discharge tube would need to handle these high pressures and temperatures but also let a magnetic field through.

Contact me on Skype if you would please. I would like to have a conversation. My user name is divclone.

For last time.. I can't write complete process but I can help you to open your mind. The story start from old experimenters like ArchieBlue with the creation of nitrous hydroxide.. In fact nitrous hydroxide don't exist, is just an name for identified new molecule.. if you see ArchieBlue patent him mix air inside electrolytic cell for obtain nitrous hydroxide; that some years ago.. today appear that can be possible that nitrous hydroxide can be ammonia NH3 but as you know we use water that chemically is H-H-O, if 1+1=2 the same is for atoms and molecules.. In all case for run the process you need also energy or for understand better e- .. you can use low voltage and high current or viceversa.. for that you can use standard electrolytic cell like Bob Boyce or other device.. I suggest to see all days the first diagram system of meyer posted from Sucahyo..

[pengrove]

Can you explain the process? Are you ionizing the the steam with the nitrogen at the same time? If so you must also have a magnetic field to keep the oxygen from recombining with the hydrogen. Is 18kv DC enough? I have a static generating power supply here. I am not so sure about the electrode configuration at this point. Your discharge tube design would be interesting to see. How much pressure and what kind of temperatures are we talking about here? The discharge tube would need to handle these high pressures and temperatures but also let a magnetic field through.

Contact me on Skype if you would please. I would like to have a conversation. My user name is divclone.

[tutanka]

Yes, but I know that must not be the right answer or you would not be asking the question. I don't think that we are also splitting the water with ionization. The Positive charged Nitrogen atom must have a co-ordinate bond with the hydrogen branches of the water molecule.

Although I could be wrong.

But what you have sended?? However you are wrong..

[vrand]

But Bob Boyce is total guru? At today him build ONLY standard HHO cells with electrolyte using a lot of ampere and however also HHO interact a lot with metals.. about energy used.. all depend on the state of water and method used for create new combustible.. Sucahyo have posted first meyer system of meyer (needed more changes for work properly), of course..that was first idea of meyer on the creation of new combustible because only HHO CAN'T RUN AN ENGINE PROPERLY IN THE TIME. Meyer after more experiments using HHO have understand that electrolyte can't be used because change final reaction and for that have created WFC cell.. after experiments, using distilled water, him have understand that instead transform water in HHO can be useful water directly using in part the same method of mix water,air, exaust gas but I know for sure that sometime car stopped to run, the special injector don't work properly because is needed high technology inside.. my object now is run properly an engine for that I have decided to use gas production way using normal spark plug and secure method of gas production. About catalyst .. that is every chemical way for accelerate reaction but you don't need in that process.. you don't have to read patent of meyer but only see designs present inside these. Regards

Hi,
What is your energy input? What is the energy output?
Regards, Mike R.

[tutanka]

Time too drop a message.


"Look at the N2 molecule and compare that to the NH3 molecule - what do you SEE?"

Another guru
If you know all, as you mentioned, answer to my 3 questions..

1) What is type of water used for create NH3?
2) You use ambient air inside your engine?
3) NH3 needed high temp or catalyst for released H atoms, what you use ?

There are 3 simple questions and if you know correct process you reply in few minutes.. if you don't want reply appear clear to the eyes of all peoples that you don't know the process..

[tutanka]

Hi Aaron,
I was talking to Bob Boyce this morning about this NH3 closed loop cycle to run an engine.

His take on it:

1. The HV energy input, to ionize the air & water that is in air or will needed to be added, will also need HV current to break the N2 & H2O bonds. This will require lots of input electric energy.

2. To get NH3 will require 3H2O to N2 to get NH3.

3. Closed loop recycling exhaust gas is good as all the H2O and N2 gase elements are already in and don't need any more input.

4. Photon bombardment with EM (knocks electrons loose) from LED's was already patented by Meyers.

5. Ammonia is corrosive and would need stainless steel materials.

6. The recycled exhaust gas needs to be ionized then run through a heat exchanger cooler to take out the heat from the gas. So that when the ionized gases enters the engine chamber it can then expand at spark ignition.

Bob's main concern was the HV energy input, in the ionizing energies required to break the bonds, would be greater than the energy output from running an engine.

If tutanka and group experimental results figured this out, energy in is less than energy out, then it looks good to go to me.

Regards, Mike R.

But Bob Boyce is total guru? At today him build ONLY standard HHO cells with electrolyte using a lot of ampere and however also HHO interact a lot with metals.. about energy used.. all depend on the state of water and method used for create new combustible.. Sucahyo have posted first meyer system of meyer (needed more changes for work properly), of course..that was first idea of meyer on the creation of new combustible because only HHO CAN'T RUN AN ENGINE PROPERLY IN THE TIME. Meyer after more experiments using HHO have understand that electrolyte can't be used because change final reaction and for that have created WFC cell.. after experiments, using distilled water, him have understand that instead transform water in HHO can be useful water directly using in part the same method of mix water,air, exaust gas but I know for sure that sometime car stopped to run, the special injector don't work properly because is needed high technology inside.. my object now is run properly an engine for that I have decided to use gas production way using normal spark plug and secure method of gas production. About catalyst .. that is every chemical way for accelerate reaction but you don't need in that process.. you don't have to read patent of meyer but only see designs present inside these. Regards