Bedini Earth Light

[Lidmotor]

One other BIG mistake to avoid

@All
There is another BIG mistake that I have made that should be avoided---not carefully recording the exact makeup of the cells and the steps in the build. I now have a cell that has run way way longer than it should have and I don't know the exact elements in it. It was a sloppy mistake. Trying to go backward now and guess what I did could have been avoided with a few notes on a piece of paper.

I wonder how many great inventions have been lost this way when the inventor made this one BIG mistake-----and then couldn't replicate the experiment.


Lidmotor

PS----The cell is a copper / zinc alloy with (I think) epsom salt and calcium cloride--and maybe something else. The copper was heated red hot and cooled several times. Regular tap water was used. It is running a reed switch pulse motor and has been for weeks. It is probably a simple galvanic situation but it has run much longer than it should have. Two milliliters of water every few days keeps it going.

[ibpointless2]

@Ibpointless:
I must respectfully disagree with your findings that oxygen is a bad thing. I am coming from from the experience of galvanic cells, so if you disagree with me, that is quite OK.
From the site:
Chem1 Electrochemistry: Electrochemical corrosion

Pitting corrosion

Most metals are covered with a thin oxide film which inhibits anodic dissolution. When corrosion does occur, it sometimes hollows out a narrow hole or pit in the metal. The bottoms of these pits tend to be deprived of oxygen, thus promoting further growth of the pit into the metal.

I respect your disagreement and you do bring up a good point.

Some metals don't need oxygen to rust. It looks like theirs many types of corrosion.

"Rusting is the common term for corrosion of iron and its alloys, such as steel. Many other metals undergo equivalent corrosion, but the resulting oxides are not commonly called rust." Rust - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

oxidising is just another form of corrosion. Some metals develop a oxide layer like aluminum to protect it. The oxide layer is not reactive but can allow electrons to flow. The oxide layer on aluminum is great! but magnesium oxide is not so great, its not conductive. "MgO is used as an insulator in industrial cables" Magnesium oxide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

@bedini, the jelly is not that great. It does help stop corrosion but its just not that great. Bubbles still show up over time but it was a fun test to do and I hope its given me some in-sight for future builds.

[John_Bedini]

Most metals are covered with a thin oxide

@Ibpointless:
I must respectfully disagree with your findings that oxygen is a bad thing. I am coming from from the experience of galvanic cells, so if you disagree with me, that is quite OK.
From the site:
Chem1 Electrochemistry: Electrochemical corrosion

Pitting corrosion

Most metals are covered with a thin oxide film which inhibits anodic dissolution. When corrosion does occur, it sometimes hollows out a narrow hole or pit in the metal. The bottoms of these pits tend to be deprived of oxygen, thus promoting further growth of the pit into the metal.

b rads,
That is why I disagree also. We could take this further as I have also seen impieties in the metal that generate little currents in the pits. as the impurities produce a type of acid gets stronger and stronger and then metal goes real fast. Thanks for posting that. The oxide really does not hurt anything as I have seen.
John B

[b_rads]

@Ibpointless:
I must respectfully disagree with your findings that oxygen is a bad thing. I am coming from from the experience of galvanic cells, so if you disagree with me, that is quite OK.
From the site:
Chem1 Electrochemistry: Electrochemical corrosion

Pitting corrosion

Most metals are covered with a thin oxide film which inhibits anodic dissolution. When corrosion does occur, it sometimes hollows out a narrow hole or pit in the metal. The bottoms of these pits tend to be deprived of oxygen, thus promoting further growth of the pit into the metal.

[cgalvisardila]

cgalvisardila.
Look I have always used the copper treated and I have also always used very expensive magnesium in my cells My favorite cells are the Alum cells, I did not have any luck with Graphite or Carbon as I did not see what the group did with the power. The graphite has always plugged up and the same for the carbon. These are my findings. The only reason the magnesium is gone is some galvanic action is taking place. Now the only thing different is that I'm running My oscillator circuit which I know returns back to the Alum cell. But I think Fausto has said the same thing in advise he gave someone here about oscillators. The Magnesium if pure should not do that, unless you are using some contaminated water in the mix of which I have found to be true. What Alum are you using as I use the food grade only. I do not agree with Ibpointless about using jelly of any kind as that is not the answer here to this problem. I have not had that happen and we run the cell day and night. The normal rate of Galvanic action is around 1 to 2% in a bad condition but as this happens it changes the mixture and it becomes very caustic to the magnesium and it eats away very fast almost as if you added table salt. so as this takes place you should see good power from the cell and then it will just die.
The next thing is how could you smell that if everything was new , did you use a carbon pole from a old carbon zinc battery? If you did you have caused the problem. If you do that then you must clean it and bake it and clean it again. soak over night in hot water rinse the next mooring and do it again until nothing is left.
John B

well.... i think i have brain pain... im using the activated carbon, (which claims to be pure) not the battery carbon, im also using the food grade alum as you said, i sensed the amonia smell as i added water... it does not happen with the rochelle-epsom+carbon mix... fausto had the same results, very strange. i try to replicate as accurate as i can but it is not always possible... i would love to get the pure elements but alfa aesar does not ship to individuals, they only ship to labs and companies, not residential addresses. the mg im using claims to be 98% pure, the new one i got from a company that fausto recomended... it lasts very long unlike the ribbon, which on some cells it lasts for months and in others corrodes by the next day... i have seen some strange things as well, for example, using the same mix and the same build on 4 cells, they all behave different, and its the exact same mix with the exact same elements... thanks john for the advice, cheers

carlos

[plengo]

I opened some few months old cells that I have running non stop without oscillators. They were cells using only alum + Mg + water.

They were totally corroded. I also have cells using alum with different mixes such as carbon and they are fine so far.

Alum with the wrong mixture becomes very corrosive to Mg. So one has to be careful with it.

I have made so far 50 or so formulas all variations of carbon, sand, alum and so on with different quantities and observing the results. So it is difficult to pin point so far if alum is the sole cause of corrosion. I think Bedini is right.

To give an empirical example, I have cells that are simply Sand, Carbon and Mg no alum. Probably (on top of my head) about 20 different combination of quantities and they are all running. Some run very well and some don't. Some corrode and some don't. The best so far combination has been 50% sand, 50% carbon with the grain not too fine. Very little corrosion if any and good power.

A little variation from that and it just does not work well. It is that sensitive. A little tiny amount of alum SOLUTION (about 99% water) boost the cells output tremendously without visible corrosion.

My Mg is not pure it is like 97% Mg and 3% a composite of Zinc and many stuff. So that makes a HUGE difference too.

Too much alum kills the cell, too little does not work well. Too much carbon does not work, too little either. Just sand works but the cell dies pretty fast, too little does not help.

Too much silica kills the cell in hours. So it is all about the relationship of each element and how they help each other. It is not just chemistry here. Much more than that.

Another observation is that when I have very little alum it grows much faster too its crystal structure than when just pure alum, very strange.

My best cell has been 50% Sand, 50% carbon, Mg with Iron Pyrite (1 mm tick around the Mg) using Sodium Silicate 40% as the glue. Water as much as you want and a tiny little amount of Alum solution 99% water.

This cell loves water while ALL OTHER FORMULAS so far hates too much water. Very strange again.

Fausto.

[John_K]

Carlos, download Windows movie maker from Microsoft. It is free. Very easy to use. Thats what I use when I,m on the pc. Else what Jim stated for Macs, Ipods etc....

Hey Chuck,

Thanks I googled Windows Movie Maker and was disappointed to see that you could only download it for Vista or Win7 and I'm still on XP.

But, I found out that if you are running XP with SP2 (which I am) it's already installed. Just went to Start>Programs>Windows Movie Maker and bingada bangada boom.

Now what did I do with that bleach?


John K.

[blackchisel97]

@All for those that think this can not be done. As I have done this many times. Just as an example I even dump out the acid in a new battery and change it to Alum, The battery in my Hot Rod is almost 14 years old and it does not corrode anything, so it works.
Sepp Hasslberger: How to convert a Lead Acid Battery into an Alkaline Battery
John

I can confirm this as well. Have done tests over the past year with LAB's converted to alum with very good results. I was going to start new thread about it. Plates are clean and batteries perform very well. I found quite easy way to get rid of acid. These converted batteries can run forever and I think they would work well as solar storage bank. I noticed that they can be taken down more than before (with acid) without any harm thous, having wider range of operation. I would love to hear your 2 cents about that John, since you have done more tests. I don't see any con's but all pro's in such conversion.

Thanks
Vtech

[John_Bedini]

water that is hidden under that crust

Lidmotor,
Good advise here on what could happen with the clip leads and it will happen very fast as they are Zinc/Tin plated. And good advise on the water that is hidden under that crust. Hope this helps all the new people doing these experiments.
John B

[Lidmotor]

A word of caution

@All
I am still doing testing on various cells. A couple of things that I discovered the hard way might help others avoid the mistakes:

1) When you are testing these cells remember that the clip leads or the probes from your meter can represent ONE OF THE DISSIMILAR METALS in a cell if it comes in contact with the cell electrolyte.

2) Some of my cells form a dry hard shell around the outside but are still moist in the middle. It gives you a false conclusion that the cell is totally dry. Think about how a tube of glue can form a dry pulg at the tip and keep the rest of the glue in the tube liquid. Same thing. The liquid water is sealed up inside.

3) Meters can lie to you. Something as simple as a bad contact point or a weak battery in the meter can throw a reading off. One of the main reasons that I built "Penny" was to backup what my meters were telling me and give me a better visual and audio way to observe cell performance.

Maybe this will help someone else and save some time and frustration.

Lidmotor

[John_Bedini]

magnesium

cgalvisardila.
Look I have always used the copper treated and I have also always used very expensive magnesium in my cells My favorite cells are the Alum cells, I did not have any luck with Graphite or Carbon as I did not see what the group did with the power. The graphite has always plugged up and the same for the carbon. These are my findings. The only reason the magnesium is gone is some galvanic action is taking place. Now the only thing different is that I'm running My oscillator circuit which I know returns back to the Alum cell. But I think Fausto has said the same thing in advise he gave someone here about oscillators. The Magnesium if pure should not do that, unless you are using some contaminated water in the mix of which I have found to be true. What Alum are you using as I use the food grade only. I do not agree with Ibpointless about using jelly of any kind as that is not the answer here to this problem. I have not had that happen and we run the cell day and night. The normal rate of Galvanic action is around 1 to 2% in a bad condition but as this happens it changes the mixture and it becomes very caustic to the magnesium and it eats away very fast almost as if you added table salt. so as this takes place you should see good power from the cell and then it will just die.
The next thing is how could you smell that if everything was new , did you use a carbon pole from a old carbon zinc battery? If you did you have caused the problem. If you do that then you must clean it and bake it and clean it again. soak over night in hot water rinse the next mooring and do it again until nothing is left.
John B

[cgalvisardila]

John,

do you think the alum is reacting with the carbon, and that's why it turns corrosive? this is a good point you rise here, i did notice a strong amonia smell on the first day i built a cell with carbon+alum replicating fausto's mix (it actually turned out to be a powerful cell) and a few days later the Mg was almost gone, fausto had the same experience... maybe that was giving the false impression that alum is corrosive, thanks for the article john... every day, new light into the matter

[John_Bedini]

for those that think this can not be done with Alum

@All for those that think this can not be done. As I have done this many times. Just as an example I even dump out the acid in a new battery and change it to Alum, The battery in my Hot Rod is almost 14 years old and it does not corrode anything, so it works.
Sepp Hasslberger: How to convert a Lead Acid Battery into an Alkaline Battery
John

[Herbie687]

Herbie687.
I guess we will start with the first one, That is a question that has two answers as my Alum cells are still working after 1 year. Nothing has rotted away so yes and no. I think Chucks are still running everyday under load. The Alum crystal just keep growing.
Gas, is not Browns gas but gas yes. The water will evaporate.
I think you know everything we know as you can flip through the posts here.
Others here may have a different opinion so you should ask them too.
We use food grade alum as safety is a concern.

John

Thanks John. Will Do.

[John_Bedini]

Alum

Hi everyone, I'm Kyle. Me and my friends have been experimenting with these crystal cells for the last 2 months now, and we want more info to help us along in getting this stuff out to the world. You all proabably want me to share my findings too, which I can do at the permission of my partners.

@JohnBedini Your YouTube Vids at the Energenx Channel have been a backbone for our research. Thankyou for posting them!
I have a few questions for you, and for anyone else who knows the answer also.
We want to start experimenting with the Alum + Water Cells, but before we do, we need more info.

1. Is it Galvonic? (or is that still TBD?)
2. Does the water evaporate? If so, is it Water Vapor, or Brown's Gas?
3. Is there anything else that I need to know about Alum + Water Cells?

Herbie687.
I guess we will start with the first one, That is a question that has two answers as my Alum cells are still working after 1 year. Nothing has rotted away so yes and no. I think Chucks are still running everyday under load. The Alum crystal just keep growing.
Gas, is not Browns gas but gas yes. The water will evaporate.
I think you know everything we know as you can flip through the posts here.
Others here may have a different opinion so you should ask them too.
We use food grade alum as safety is a concern.

John