Bedini Earth Light

[ibpointless2]

You can't say Morton's is necessary unless you've tried cells with other salt subs. You have no idea how a Siffo cell differs from, or doesn't differ from, your Morton's cell. You are jumping to an unfounded conclusion. More information is needed to say anything definitive.

I say Morton's is necessary if you wan't to replicate my Crystal glue cell and my stove top cell. Just look at Lidmotors replication of my stove top cell, he uses Morton and the cell stays alive without ever needing water added to it and that's due to the Morton's salt substitute. If you replicate my cells like I have using the Morton salt sub then you wont need to add water to it to keep the voltage alive.

So Yes I find it necessary to Use Morton's salt substitute if you want a cell that doesn't need water constantly added to it to keep the voltage alive. If you keep adding water to the cells it will corrode due to the water eating at the metals. Like I keep saying you need to trust me on this, I know its hard to understand but when you do make my cell correctly and it keeps its voltage even after a week without you adding any water you will then understand.

I have made many cells with many types of salt combinations and i find that there is something about Morton's salt sub and Epsom salts that makes a great cell that doesn't need water to keep its voltage alive.

[plengo]

I have been making cells like craizy. They are all lighting 10mm LEDs very bright. Some has 3 LEDs on and no oscilator.

Everytime i make a new i play with geometry. This is key. Water is the gas or sacrificial element. Water is actually good if controlled. No galvanic here.

This is not just chemistry guys. Transcend that a little. Do you really think a tree lives on what? Nutrients from the ground? Only? Water and radiation from the sun. Without either there is no tree.

Yes can be galvanic if you want, but if you control it is no longer galvanic. What you call pitty is just the first phase unless you add too much water or reactants.

Geometry.
Fausto.

[jehdds]

Guys,
Nick has a point. True solid state is what we seek.
I just destroyed for inspection ten cells of various mixes.
Interesting that one CAN see what appears to be frank galvanic action,
BUT not on all, AND upon close examination they make one think that what may appear as galvanic destruction COULD be a byproduct of polarizing a bit too vigorously and for TOO long.
Observations:
Copper if not oxidized before assembly is worthless,
And even after is still not optimal.
Inside out cell proved do NOT mix and match Cathodic materials.
Carbon is better for seeing less MG deterioration with excessive water.
If one sands down to bare metal where what appeared to be galvanic deterioration of the Mg, deep in any pit is either ZnO or MnO2 which indicate to me that it was a product of the polarization and NOT just galvanic attack.
Most cells showed no alteration of the oxide layer. This is consistent with pre treatment before assembly and post assembly just " Zappping" cell and NOT BLASTING / JUCING the heck out of the cell.
Despite ones subconscious hope that cramming a few more Joules into a cell in an effort to make the magical 4V 200mA forever cell is VERY
Counterproductive.
I do NOT think the ZnO/Carbon/Mg variant cells are electrochemically destroyed as one might anticipate. They ARE dependent for Current on some POLAR molecule. Can they work well for relatively moderate current,
You Bet. Can they last long? Yes. Are they solid state?
No. They are mutants. So far only JB has shown TRUE Solid State Cell,
Period. All Others have some molecular water tied up or needed for function.
My last Mn02/ZnO/silica gel that sprouted lots of crystals has not been touched with any water. It appears bone dry and makes 1.6v 500uA.
Is it anhydrous? Not a chance. Some water is in the lattice.
But it is acting like a stove top cell in that no water has been added.
I agree all we are doing helps learn. But perhaps we should switch gears and move toward the kiln. JB has and our friend from Alaska sees it too.
All thoughts welcome and I applaud all here for the tenacity,
Creativity and honesty. It is refreshing, and encouraging.
The key is to NOT quit trying, rather continue to pursue.
I am happy you all do so.
Very Best Regards,
Jim

[NickZ]

@ John Bedini:
Hey John, do you miss us as much as we miss you???

[NickZ]

@ Jim:
Yes, that looks like a good way to go. John had mentioned about the use of the ceramic electrolytes, which may also work very similar to these glass ones used in the Lithium batteries.

I just saw a video of a guy using similar methods as what I've been working on. He uses quartz, and two other rocks, only, as his electrolyte.
Check this out:
Joel Harvey's Crystal Battery, Endless Battery, SSEP Solid State Electron Pump. Study "Conclusion" - YouTube

NickZ

[NickZ]

All:
I think that some guys are missing the point of this thread. It is not about how to best use water or other liquids like bleach, acids, alkalines, etz to make wet cells that will work while the liquid is producing a chemical reaction, on sacrificial metals. There are already many of those type of batteries on the market, which can last for some time, and do work well. But, the idea here is not to compete with existing battery technologies, that function by charging and discharging batteries, primary or secondary type batteries. But to invent a dry cell, or a solid state type of crystal cells with a perpetual output, not ever needing to be charged, and never getting discharged, but without using galvanics to accomplish this result. Because a galvanic reaction will require the cells to break down and consume itself in time, and that is what we are trying to avoid, here.
So, some will think that their cells work fine so long as you add more water, and replace the sacrificial metals. And that's fine. But the rest of us that have been posting on this thread are working on dry cells, for a while now, and are working towards something else, that does not need water or liquids to work, and that will NOT die without continual waterings.

[LetsReplicate]

You must use Morton's salt substitute, it has something in it besides the chloride that makes the cells do what they do. You must use the Morton's to fully understand what I'm saying, trust me.

So I'm supposed to go to the city and go driving around from store to store in the hopes of finding a specific brand name of toxic salt substitute? (potassium chloride causes heart problems in healthy people: don't eat it) I probably can't even get Morton's here unless I special order it online, I did look for it.

So if I need Morton's to build your cells I'm simply going to use a different method of building the cell. Perhaps one that doesn't use Potassium Chloride, like Diveflyfish's. I am not afraid of water and all of these cells are cheaply replaceable when they degrade, so there is no reason whatsoever to think that adding water is a problem.

You can't say Morton's is necessary unless you've tried cells with other salt subs. You have no idea how a Siffo cell differs from, or doesn't differ from, your Morton's cell. You are jumping to an unfounded conclusion. More information is needed to say anything definitive.

There's a reason why I don't make these cells anymore and its mostly to do with the water needed to grow the crystal. I could never use a magnesium electrode because magnesium would fizz right away when place in the water mix. The fizzing and bubbling of magnesium in water is not it developing a oxide layer but instead its releasing gasses and corroding away.

That is why it is better to build up an oxide layer first using electrolysis, that way it doesn't fizz. The water in Elmer's glue will also cause fizzing on the bare magnesium as it drys, the gas will just be trapped around the electrode which will cause it to form moisture channels as the gas escapes the glue. This is akin to a capacitor bloating, there is a lot of force in those small gas buildups. These microscopic gas channels would also push through your spray paint coating. so all you're really doing by sealing it is limiting how much moisture from the air gets in, not stopping it. You live in a more humid climate than me, a fully dry glue cell reads as an open circuit here, it takes moisture in the air to make it run unless moisture is added. There is no direct gain to sealing the cell that I can see and moisture in the cell is the difference between the cell working, and the cell reading as an open circuit with no voltage.

I do the things I do for a reason. I use Notebook paper instead of copper cup or a cup like container because notebook paper doesn't trap water like a cup would. The paper wicks away the excess water and allows the cell to dry faster. I use the glue because it protects the inner metals from the outside air. I use Thin Magnesium ribbon and small 18 gauge copper wire because they will show corrosion faster than a bigger versions of them and when done right the glue cell doesn't show corrosion on the inside of the metals. I coat the cells with plastic or paint to protect it from the air and any water. Once my cells are made they don't need any water, ever, to run so that is why I coat them. The use of no needed water and coating them makes the cells electrodes last longer.

And for the 22gauge (which is SMALLER than 18gauge) aluminum-copper wire cells have to be crafted on plastic then flipped over and re-coated. Aluminum doesn't fizz and it's corrosion stays mostly in place, only weakening the wire. They are bifilar pancake coils which require both ends of each coil to exit the glue. I've been looking into ohmic leads to exit the glue (bolts) but there is no easy way to place them on the jig for winding. The cells are useless if the aluminum leads keep braking, and I seriously doubt that Morton's is the reason yours aren't breaking since you are were undoubtedly using thicker wire and magnesium is more flexible than aluminum. That is the exact reason I'm looking at Diveflyfish's ZnO "hot paint" for the cells now instead of Elmer's glue.

I could make my cells just like Bedini's Alum battery, Where I use a copper bowl and a huge piece of Magnesium that is separated by Epsom salt and salt substitute and water mix. I have done this but the thing is when the salts dry out I still have voltage but to bring amps back I can do what they do and add a drop of water and then i'm back to using water as the median of transport. The good news is that I would be using huge electrodes that won't corrode as quick as smaller electrodes. Bedini says to use the big magnesium electrode because its more pure than magnesium ribbon. Its not that the magnesium ribbon is less pure (it 99.98% pure) it just that the bigger magnesium bedini uses is just bigger so it takes longer to see any side effects of corrosion.

An electrolyte is ALWAYS going to be the median of transport whether you like it or not. ANY electrolyte will decompose the magnesium. By sealing moisture into the cell (which is what the glue is doing), you are slowing down the current output. When you slow down the current output the degradation of the metal slows down too.

If we were drawing 60mA off the copper-magnesium cell, we would see the magnesium degrade pretty quickly. But since we're capped at only drawing microamps in the semi-dry cells, the magnesium can appear to last for years.

Thick magnesium rods are nice because they have a large surface area and can be sanded/filed down to make new cells when the old ones die. That allows for multiple tests for the best combination without continually buying more metal. Water heater sacrificial anodes (magnesium bars) can last for years while completely immersed in water, that is what they are intended for.

[jehdds]

@ Plengo and All:
Yes, there may also be more to All cells than just a galvanic reaction, due to the reasons I've already mentioned. My cells need no water, at all. They are the proof that there is a non galvanic source of power, also.
Ib2 has also shown his two different wire salt crystal/glue cell, needing no additional water, and still working for quite a while. I take that as another proof of concept. We have both been working towards that goal, and have had some success, although with practically no current output.

If some cells died without water, or died from too much water, isn't this what we are trying to stay away from, the dependance of the use of water?
I am curious as to which cells (of the hundreds) that you've have made, don't use and need more water added, and are still working without any drop in current levels? I am not being critical, so please don't take it that way, just trying to see what works, without water, as this thread is about dry non galvanic type of cells.
John B has tried to find the answer to this riddle, and has shown us his solid state cell, but did not show how it was made, at least not that I can see. It only puts out a couple of mA, just like my cells do, but they can still light leds, for a very long time.


Solid state cell:
Solid State Crystal Batteries In Series 2 - YouTube

Nick,
Here is a guess and what I have found....

http://rm1.cc.lehigh.edu:8080/dept/IMI/pdf_DC07/Tatsumisago.pdf

All with time.
Very Best Regards,
Jim

[NickZ]

@ Plengo and All:
Yes, there may also be more to All cells than just a galvanic reaction, due to the reasons I've already mentioned. My cells need no water, at all. They are the proof that there is a non galvanic source of power, also.
Ib2 has also shown his two different wire salt crystal/glue cell, needing no additional water, and still working for quite a while. I take that as another proof of concept. We have both been working towards that goal, and have had some success, although with practically no current output.

If some cells died without water, or died from too much water, isn't this what we are trying to stay away from, the dependance of the use of water?
I am curious as to which cells (of the hundreds) that you've have made, don't use and need more water added, and are still working without any drop in current levels? I am not being critical, so please don't take it that way, just trying to see what works, without water, as this thread is about dry non galvanic type of cells.
John B has tried to find the answer to this riddle, and has shown us his solid state cell, but did not show how it was made, at least not that I can see. It only puts out a couple of mA, just like my cells do, but they can still light leds, for a very long time.


Solid state cell:
Solid State Crystal Batteries In Series 2 - YouTube

[ibpointless2]

The problem was corrosion due to the chlorine, it broke the aluminum wire in all of the 20 or so test cells. The copper wire also developed green corrosion where it left the cell. Trust me when I say that is what happened in the 22gauge wire cells.

That is why I opted for a cell with sturdier metal leads for test cells.



Alum is two metals, usually potassium and aluminum. It's possible that he is using Soda alum, ammonium alum or plain aluminum sulfate but if he did he should have specified.



There are many more oxidizing agents than just water, you could have done that test using a pure alcohol and the leads would degrade just as fast. Chlorine is a powerful oxidizer: potassium chloride in the water would corrode the magnesium extremely fast.

The repeated water evaporation helps build the crystal structure, something that does not happen in the glue cells.


Combustion means it eats oxygen when heated. Odds are there isn't very much of it in the mix.

Placing ground activated carbon in the cell should be just as effective, especially since it absorbs lose chlorine that will be degrading the metals, even if you can't see the corrosion because it is locked inside the cell.

You must use Morton's salt substitute, it has something in it besides the chloride that makes the cells do what they do. You must use the Morton's to fully understand what I'm saying, trust me.

The glue acts to protect the cell inner metals from the air and it works well when you have the right ingredients. I have built the "water evaporating" cells like John makes and others have made. I have built a true literal crystal battery where its only a crystal layer around the electrodes shown here. Polycrystalline Literal Crystal Battery - YouTube
There's a reason why I don't make these cells anymore and its mostly to do with the water needed to grow the crystal. I could never use a magnesium electrode because magnesium would fizz right away when place in the water mix. The fizzing and bubbling of magnesium in water is not it developing a oxide layer but instead its releasing gasses and corroding away.

I do the things I do for a reason. I use Notebook paper instead of copper cup or a cup like container because notebook paper doesn't trap water like a cup would. The paper wicks away the excess water and allows the cell to dry faster. I use the glue because it protects the inner metals from the outside air. I use Thin Magnesium ribbon and small 18 gauge copper wire because they will show corrosion faster than a bigger versions of them and when done right the glue cell doesn't show corrosion on the inside of the metals. I coat the cells with plastic or paint to protect it from the air and any water. Once my cells are made they don't need any water, ever, to run so that is why I coat them. The use of no needed water and coating them makes the cells electrodes last longer.

I could make my cells just like Bedini's Alum battery, Where I use a copper bowl and a huge piece of Magnesium that is separated by Epsom salt and salt substitute and water mix. I have done this but the thing is when the salts dry out I still have voltage but to bring amps back I can do what they do and add a drop of water and then i'm back to using water as the median of transport. The good news is that I would be using huge electrodes that won't corrode as quick as smaller electrodes. Bedini says to use the big magnesium electrode because its more pure than magnesium ribbon. Its not that the magnesium ribbon is less pure (it 99.98% pure) it just that the bigger magnesium bedini uses is just bigger so it takes longer to see any side effects of corrosion.

[LetsReplicate]

Trust me, using Elmer's Glue-All, Morton's Salt substitute, and Epsom salt makes for a cell that does not need any water added to it to keep it alive. I have many cells that are several months old using this mix and are still alive with the original voltage from day one and I never added any water to them. If you add water to a cell you will kill it because water is the reason why the metals corrode.

The problem was corrosion due to the chlorine, it broke the aluminum wire in all of the 20 or so test cells. The copper wire also developed green corrosion where it left the cell. Trust me when I say that is what happened in the 22gauge wire cells.

That is why I opted for a cell with sturdier metal leads for test cells.

We also forget that there is more than one type of alum. The alum Bedini uses does not contain potassium (i think its aluminum) and it seems to work for him and his alum cells. But Bedini's alum cells don't work unless they're wet and he uses such big electrodes the cell will last for a long time without showing any corrosion.

Alum is two metals, usually potassium and aluminum. It's possible that he is using Soda alum, ammonium alum or plain aluminum sulfate but if he did he should have specified.

I really do think a crystal cell can be made with water but we all must take a step backwards and understand the galvanic process. Make some simple water batteries with small electrodes and short the cells out and keep doing this til you find a mix of water and something that keeps the electrodes alive. I've mention it before, water is attracted to electricity but is repelled by magnets, this idea can be used to protect the metals. The very fact that the water cell corrodes is due to the water being attracted to the electricity that is made from the metals. A higher concentration of water is created at the electrodes and that high concentration of water is what starts eating the metals. Find a way to expose the electrodes to a very high magnetic field and the hydrogen's of the water will turn away but the ions will still flow and best part is the metals won't corrode. For those who want a simple test to prove that water is the reason why metal corrode just stick a piece of magnesium ribbon in water (you can add alum to the water if you want) and wait a few days; remove the magnesium from the water and hold it up to a light and you'll see holes in it due to it corroding away. Water does all the Corroding and Not galvanics 02 - YouTube

There are many more oxidizing agents than just water, you could have done that test using a pure alcohol and the leads would degrade just as fast. Chlorine is a powerful oxidizer: potassium chloride in the water would corrode the magnesium extremely fast.

The repeated water evaporation helps build the crystal structure, something that does not happen in the glue cells.

Fumaric acid or trans-butenedioic acid is the chemical compound with the formula HO2CCH=CHCO2H. This white crystalline compound is one of two isomeric unsaturated dicarboxylic acids, the other being maleic acid. In fumaric acid the carboxylic acid groups are trans (E) and in maleic acid they are cis (Z). Fumaric acid has a fruit-like taste. The salts and esters are known as fumarates.
...
Fumaric acid converts to the irritant maleic anhydride, upon partial combustion.

Combustion means it eats oxygen when heated. Odds are there isn't very much of it in the mix.

Placing ground activated carbon in the cell should be just as effective, especially since it absorbs lose chlorine that will be degrading the metals, even if you can't see the corrosion because it is locked inside the cell.

[ibpointless2]

Siffo uses sodium ferrocynaide decahydrate (yellow prussiate of soda) as an anti-caking agent. As and decahydrate, that means it should melt when heated like alum, but when I did a heating test useing just the salt substitute there was no melting or sizzling. That tells me there isn't much of it in the mix, a dopent at best.

Odds are all the salt substitutes use the same anti-caking agent.

I'm not sure if potassium chloride is needed, potassium is in alum as well, and Diveflyfish has higher current output cells without chlorides.

Morton's Salt substitute does not contain the same anti-caking agent as does Siffo. So Morton's Salt sub is different from Siffo's Salt sub, so its highly important to use Morton's salt substitute. Not all salt subs are the same. Morton's salt substitute contains Potassium chloride, fumaric Acid, tricalcium phosphate and monocalcium phosphate.

Trust me, using Elmer's Glue-All, Morton's Salt substitute, and Epsom salt makes for a cell that does not need any water added to it to keep it alive. I have many cells that are several months old using this mix and are still alive with the original voltage from day one and I never added any water to them. If you add water to a cell you will kill it because water is the reason why the metals corrode.

The reason why Diveflyfish has a higher current is due to him pre-charging some cells with a battery and wetting a cell with water. All the cells I show have been dried for at least 24 hours (months on some) and will never see water again (besides whats in the air and that's why I coat them in plastic or paint). I could get higher amps if I put one drop of water onto the cell, that would lower the resistance of the crystal lattice and thus more current but I will pay for it as the metals will corrode because water will be in contact with the electrodes. The use of ZnO is very interesting and needs to be look into more as it may be promising.

We also forget that there is more than one type of alum. The alum Bedini uses does not contain potassium (i think its aluminum) and it seems to work for him and his alum cells. But Bedini's alum cells don't work unless they're wet and he uses such big electrodes the cell will last for a long time without showing any corrosion.

I really do think a crystal cell can be made with water but we all must take a step backwards and understand the galvanic process. Make some simple water batteries with small electrodes and short the cells out and keep doing this til you find a mix of water and something that keeps the electrodes alive. I've mention it before, water is attracted to electricity but is repelled by magnets, this idea can be used to protect the metals. The very fact that the water cell corrodes is due to the water being attracted to the electricity that is made from the metals. A higher concentration of water is created at the electrodes and that high concentration of water is what starts eating the metals. Find a way to expose the electrodes to a very high magnetic field and the hydrogen's of the water will turn away but the ions will still flow and best part is the metals won't corrode. For those who want a simple test to prove that water is the reason why metal corrode just stick a piece of magnesium ribbon in water (you can add alum to the water if you want) and wait a few days; remove the magnesium from the water and hold it up to a light and you'll see holes in it due to it corroding away. Water does all the Corroding and Not galvanics 02 - YouTube


Now I must figure out what else in Morton's salt substitute besides Potassium Chloride is making the cell work like it does? I'm leaning towards fumaric acid.

[LetsReplicate]

anybody have salt substitute that's not made by Morton? If you do could you please post the ingredients in it. I'm trying to find what Morton's does different with there salt sub.

Siffo uses sodium ferrocynaide decahydrate (yellow prussiate of soda) as an anti-caking agent. As and decahydrate, that means it should melt when heated like alum, but when I did a heating test useing just the salt substitute there was no melting or sizzling. That tells me there isn't much of it in the mix, a dopent at best.

Odds are all the salt substitutes use the same anti-caking agent.

I'm not sure if potassium chloride is needed, potassium is in alum as well, and Diveflyfish has higher current output cells without chlorides.

[ibpointless2]

I found some interesting info about John Hutinson Crystal converter from this site hutchison energy

It seems John gave a cell to someone with about 600mV and as the days passed the cell kept falling down in power all the way to 200mV.

John H Crystal Converter Log.JPG

[plengo]

@ Plengo and All:
Thank you for that well thought out explanation.
However, I think that there can be more to it than just the feeding of the of a cells water habit, or it will stop producing power, and not grow crystals, etz. Is that not still just the proof that this is a chemical reaction that we are seeing? No water, no power? Or a variation of the galvanic theory?
On the other hand if a cell can produce energy without needing air, or needing water to burn or use in any way. Then that would be the proof that there is more to a solid state type of cell, than just what you have observed concerning flowing water veins inside the cells, drying up, like a plant.

I feel that the two different metals (or Carbon), are producing energy, by a conversion process taken from the surrounding ambient, similar to what some capacitors can do. This process can get totally over-shadowed by our not so wanted chemical or galvanic reaction, but Only If, there is air (oxygen and hydrogen), or water present.

My carbon/quartz cells use no water, nor do they need any water added later, and are sealed from the outside air, and can still light leds. Series connection of multiple cells of this type will produce any voltage needed, but with practically no current. Another proof of the non-galvanic nature of this kind of led light production, is this No Current, Potential Only, type of cell. No oxidation and no current should also mean, no wearing out, and so the cells can last a very long time, dry as a bone...

NickZ

Too much water the cell will also die. Should not that be a perfect environment for only galvanic reaction, as many have already shown? Those cells needs only enough water. That is contrary to 100% galvanic I think.

A plant without air or water will not work, she will die and that is a organic organism. So to expect that a cell without air and water is indeed more than "solid state", like a plant may be? is very strange. A plant needs water and air and good water and good air.

Look, I have done hundreds of those cells in many different variations (my videos a showing almost nothing) and I clearly see a distinction in behavior as I explained above. I am not saying the cell is a plant but it is behaving like one in certain aspects. May be thinking a little bit different may help in understanding this baby.

I have enough experimentation and evidence that I concluded this not to be only galvanic but something very different also.

Some cells are purely galvanic and will behave ALWAYS as such but some are simply not. They are indeed challenging our knowledge of chemistry.

Fausto.