Bedini Ferris Wheel Regauging Motor

[John_K]

Bfw

John K,

Thanks for being patient with me...

To many times have I heard to build it like I say before you change anything. I am doing my best to do just that and want to understand JB's intent and thought process. Double battery voltage was stuck in my head and needed to undertand! It's starting to come together.


Thanks, Brent

Brent,

John's intent is to have us figure it out, otherwise we would not learn and he wants us to learn. He wants us to succeed.

Sometimes it's easier not to ask how, but why? When you have figured out the why then you can think about the how.

Yes, you also need to know how things work. Like how batteries work and what they like and don't like. For example, why shouldn't you charge a battery higher than 16v? When you have the answer you just figure out how to do it.

You will get there, it does take time. Remember, John has been doing this full time for 40 years, for us it is a part time hobby. It's taken me 5 years part time to get this far and I feel like I'm only scratching the surface.

But the more I learn, the simpler it seems to be. You will kick yourself when you figure it out and realise it's not that hard. I do.


John K.

[BrentA929]

Charging

John K,

Thanks for being patient with me...

To many times have I heard to build it like I say before you change anything. I am doing my best to do just that and want to understand JB's intent and thought process. Double battery voltage was stuck in my head and needed to undertand! It's starting to come together.


Thanks, Brent

@Brent,
The reason for 48v? John already said that is what 3 x 16v is. He also said it prevents the batteries from over-charging. It is a potential switch that will not work once the batteries are fully charged. No point running the machine after that as it is just wasting the energy.


John K.

[BrentA929]

Bfw

John B,

Thanks for clarifying that...

I ran my wheel for a little while today at 48V dump to the secondary batteries. It was dumping at almost every magnet pass. For sure it was dumping every 2 magnet passes. Would the regauging wheel section come into play at all with any of this? Still haven't started that section yet. Do those coils add to the filling of the capacitor when the bottom section is running? Or are they completedly isolated?


Love this stuff, Brent

@ All,
Thanks John K for posting that information as that is very important in the operation of the machine.
Not only the SG but the Ferris Wheel. The Ferris Wheel is more of a motor then the SG. The reason why is because of the switching.
@ Minoly,
The machine was Costly to build as it was a pro-type. The Comparator I always had and I did not want to use it, as the DC fet switch did what I wanted it to do.

@ Brent,
I used that DC switch because it was in the range to charge the batteries without over charging.
You guys are going to have to pick a DC switch that works with your batteries, because these DC switches do not all work the same. That is why I said a sidac, Low voltage should be chosen to fire the switch. If you watched the output meter you could see it discharging after each pulse as John K has point out to you. When I showed the wheel starting on it's own and where it stopped was the point the DC switch discharges. Then the wheel goes in the clockwise direction for running. In Other Words the wheel starts in reverse then slams agents the magnetic field and stops then it goes forward. After that every time a magnet passes the pole you get a discharge to the secondary batteries.
The important thing is the timing between the poles the motor part must be completely off , not one bit of leakage on that switch.
John B

[minoly]

@Brent,


@Patrick,
Yes, the comparator would work, but would be harder to do with one wire as the 741 requires a stable reference voltage so you need voltage regulators and a bunch of components to make it work. And why do all that when John has now shown you can do it with one device?




John K.

My bad, I thought John B. is advocating not to use the relay, but to use the comparator or some other method that is not as costly?

My solution works nicely, the only draw back is the 2nd tranny heats up something fierce, maybe put a big heat sink on it and warm the house while I'm at it LOL.
so is it a k08a relay?

Thanks,
Patrick

[Ron Chase]

Great Week

John K,

Great summation! Its been an excellant week on this thread. Have a great weekend and thanks for the explanations.

Ron

[John_K]

@ All Too

@Brent,
The reason for 48v? John already said that is what 3 x 16v is. He also said it prevents the batteries from over-charging. It is a potential switch that will not work once the batteries are fully charged. No point running the machine after that as it is just wasting the energy.

@Ron,
The batteries are charging at the rate they want to charge without current. I don't want to push them with current. Note that the electrolyte tempearture is lower in the charge battery than the primary battery - cold charging. With the SG circuit the RPM will regulate according to the impedance of the charge battery - self regulating impedance matching machine like John has always said.

@Patrick,
Yes, the comparator would work, but would be harder to do with one wire as the 741 requires a stable reference voltage so you need voltage regulators and a bunch of components to make it work. And why do all that when John has now shown you can do it with one device?

@All,
The machine is basically a very efficient motor (54W to turn a 13' wheel!) that also recovers all of the energy that is normally wasted into another battery. The modified Bedini/Cole circuit gives a lot of torque for not much energy because there is no drag. The hub section also keeps the primary charged. It needs to be looked at very simply, there are no physics laws being broken here and no voodoo to look for.

Once you have the circuits built properly you just adjust the timing like you would a car. The timing is very important as John says. Once you have that, you just walk away and figure out what you're going to do with the all the energy - electrical and mechanical.


John K.

[John_Bedini]

@ All

@ All,
Thanks John K for posting that information as that is very important in the operation of the machine.
Not only the SG but the Ferris Wheel. The Ferris Wheel is more of a motor then the SG. The reason why is because of the switching.
@ Minoly,
The machine was Costly to build as it was a pro-type. The Comparator I always had and I did not want to use it, as the DC fet switch did what I wanted it to do.

@ Brent,
I used that DC switch because it was in the range to charge the batteries without over charging.
You guys are going to have to pick a DC switch that works with your batteries, because these DC switches do not all work the same. That is why I said a sidac, Low voltage should be chosen to fire the switch. If you watched the output meter you could see it discharging after each pulse as John K has point out to you. When I showed the wheel starting on it's own and where it stopped was the point the DC switch discharges. Then the wheel goes in the clockwise direction for running. In Other Words the wheel starts in reverse then slams agents the magnetic field and stops then it goes forward. After that every time a magnet passes the pole you get a discharge to the secondary batteries.
The important thing is the timing between the poles the motor part must be completely off , not one bit of leakage on that switch.
John B

[BrentA929]

48V dump

Ron,

You may be right, but I have a hard time believing that JB didn't pick 48V for some specific reason. There was some thought behind it! Just curious what it is...


Best Regards, Brent

Brent,

The 48V level of the cap seems to be where the opto coupler FET in the box breaksdown and dumps the negative spike to the battery. I don't think the 48V was picked as much as thats what it turned to be.

Ron

[minoly]

Brent,

The 48V level of the cap seems to be where the opto coupler FET in the box breaksdown and dumps the negative spike to the battery. I don't think the 48V was picked as much as thats what it turned to be.

Ron

we can only speculate at this point. my 2 cents... John B has many ways of making that cap dump, when and where ever he chooses depending on the circumstances and desired outcome. I think he chose that device based on his requirements at the time.

That being said, he spent another few more months before settling on the comparator, why? He's always tweaking, making things work better. So there are many other ways to make it work. Look what he ended up having to do to make the smaller builds work. We're here to learn rather than follow a recipe right?

I've thought long and hard on this, otherwise, since it is such a simple device why not show it from the get-go.
sincerely,
Patrick

[Ron Chase]

Here's a video: Bedini Monopole SSG Timing - YouTube


John K.

John K,

Great video, thanks for sharing it. Have you had a chance to correlate the timing shown to charging rate?

Ron

[Ron Chase]

48V Cap Dump

Brent,

The 48V level of the cap seems to be where the opto coupler FET in the box breaksdown and dumps the negative spike to the battery. I don't think the 48V was picked as much as thats what it turned to be.

Ron

[BrentA929]

Why 48V?

John B,

Because there was so much confusion on this topic (capacitor discharge voltage) I would like to ask a question...

Why did you choose discharging the capacitor at 48V vs. 72V? Is it because you were trying to achieve a certain frequency? Or is there more to it?

I get that a battery is fully charged at the 15.5 to 16V range. Peter L. did a great job in describing that at the last conference.


Thanks, Brent

Brent,
Remember what I said about the capacitor, it's rated at 65 volts 75 volts max serge so you can not wait for it to reach that voltage as the switch breaks down before that, But look in the box. The high voltage destroys that cap 72 volts would be double and that is too much for the switch at that current of 5.2 amps which is 374.4 watts. The machine was only using 1.5 amps at 36 volts or 54 watts Did you not watch the meters at the conference. When the meters were pegged after running the current was down on the secondary batteries to 3.3 amps at 48 volts or 158.4 watts float. and that makes the batteries standing at 16 volts

But your correct about doubling the voltage for a battery. So why would you have gray hair over this as that is where the machine was running. I ran this machine two times and it was at the same power level both times. This is what I have in my notes on this machine. I would have liked to have double the voltage as I have always said, not with that switch. You only need to be two to three volts over the battery to charge them but you really want to push them to 15.5 to 16 volts max or the power is just being wasted in heat in the battery. Even Ricks SG 30 coiler was only pushing the batteries to 16 volts. John K even turned it down to not over boil the batteries.
But just look in the box and you will see, go get your hair dyed your wife will love you as a new man.
Damn I should have opened the box for John K when you were here.

John

[John_K]

Video

Here's a video: Bedini Monopole SSG Timing - YouTube


John K.

[John_K]

It's all in the t...t..t.timing

I did an experiment to show the timing of the coil discharge pulse by using John's method of an LED over the coil and reflective marlings on the rotor magnets.

What I found was that when I tuned the 10 coiler so that the coil discharged exactly half way in between the rotor magnets, the wheel sped up. But if the coil discharge pulse was either side of the half way mark the wheel would slow down.

I believe the reason why the rotor speeds up is because when the coil discharges and the poles flip, the scalar South is being repelled by the normal South on the top of the coil. This also "sucks in" the next oncoming North magnet.

This is also why John has such a long duty cycle (50% IIRC) on the Ferris Wheel. We want to take advantage of the scalar South.

Ring the bell twice!


John K.

[minoly]

Brent,
I'm talking about making a solid state relay for the switching.
The Fet would get around the problems with the SCR.Mathew Jones shows the circuit a few pages back, but that solid state relay is costly so we could make that with the opto and the regulator for the gate voltage and the resistor to pull the gate off. The way around his circuit for timing is a SIDAC at 40 to 60 volts to fire the opto when the capacitor reaches the correct voltage. that is the switch I'm working on. NTE makes that part NTE6415. The higher the voltage the better, then the battery will charge fast that is what we want. Capacitor dump circuits must be double in voltage or very close to it.

John B

John,
So when you use the term costly, did you mean energy-wise or $$-wise? At the time I assumed $$'s
Is this why you pursued the comparator?



Thanks,
Patrick