Bi-toroid Transformer of Thane C. Heins

[Dog-One]

Hey Dog-One you mean like this one will fit my HP 54100D??

If it will work, for $100 it's a bargain.

I'm sure with most HP gear you can check compatibility. I highly doubt there would be anything about it that makes it unusable.

Good find.

[BroMikey]

Probes

Hey Dog-One you mean like this one will fit my HP 54100D??

HP 1141A Differential Probe 1MOHM 7pF 200V PK 2X HP 5062 7303 88809F | eBay

[BroMikey]

Resistor?

So what am I to use? I need to measure and this will be my first time using this resistor and you say I can't use it now

Still this is good to know about the resistors inductance.

Mike

I've found the source of my negative power factor. Don't underestimate the reality of stray inductance or capacitance. My 1 ohm current sensing resistor is of approximately 15 uH. This means at frequencies, of say 50 kHz, that I'd have 2*pi*.000015*50000 = 4.7 Ohms of reactance. Well.. I'm only trying to sense what is going on in the 1 ohm of resistance... This additional factor of reactance totally skews my results and make any of my previous statements null and void. The more reactance your current sensing resistor has, the closer to 180 degrees your measurements will be. Don't let this one bite you.

I'm going to remove my videos as they are misleading. I'm not done with this endeavor but at least know how I must proceed with measuring.

Dave

[BroMikey]

Measuring Loads

Here is a video that is simple to understand and is only meant to be used as a tool for tuning. This video is not my setup but could be used by someone to loop with. Remember at the end of the project when more is coming out it is power that must be converted back to a form that powers the input.

Then the extra can go to a resistive heater element.

The one I am setting up is a 1.2 amp AC window unit that runs on 120vac.

Each motor runs very quite and are the same. I need a small system to run my tiny amp. It only needs about 60 watts input and the amp produces and output of 50 percent of that figure. So say 20-25watts.

It will be sooooo evident when I hit a node when the rotor is relieved.

This is the same as a wind turbine. Or even set it up off of a car alternator that is powering a load to an HHO cell pack. The claim is that the bi-toroid
Would double or triple the alternators capacity or any motor.

This simple setup could allow experimenters to test and tune without a scope.





https:
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-EJhUsxhUs






Mike

[Dog-One]

I've found the source of my negative power factor. Don't underestimate the reality of stray inductance or capacitance. My 1 ohm current sensing resistor is of approximately 15 uH. This means at frequencies, of say 50 kHz, that I'd have 2*pi*.000015*50000 = 4.7 Ohms of reactance. Well.. I'm only trying to sense what is going on in the 1 ohm of resistance... This additional factor of reactance totally skews my results and make any of my previous statements null and void. The more reactance your current sensing resistor has, the closer to 180 degrees your measurements will be. Don't let this one bite you.

I'm going to remove my videos as they are misleading. I'm not done with this endeavor but at least know how I must proceed with measuring.

Dave

I guess the question this has me asking is, did Bill Alek fall into the same crack as you? Seems entirely possible.

I still feel a workable approach is to configure a setup in which we attempt to see gain from the SFT, one pulse at a time if need be. We apply a unit of energy X and look for a unit of energy X + Y coming back. If we can't do that, then this thing simply isn't real.

[Web000x]

I've found the source of my negative power factor. Don't underestimate the reality of stray inductance or capacitance. My 1 ohm current sensing resistor is of approximately 15 uH. This means at frequencies, of say 50 kHz, that I'd have 2*pi*.000015*50000 = 4.7 Ohms of reactance. Well.. I'm only trying to sense what is going on in the 1 ohm of resistance... This additional factor of reactance totally skews my results and make any of my previous statements null and void. The more reactance your current sensing resistor has, the closer to 180 degrees your measurements will be. Don't let this one bite you.

I'm going to remove my videos as they are misleading. I'm not done with this endeavor but at least know how I must proceed with measuring.

Dave

[BroMikey]

200khz

Hey Web000x

You mentioned 200khz? The audio section is good for 20,000 hz anything beyond that you might be chasing Ghosts.

The average decent audio amp has an output transformer that has a core material and circuits designed for under 30khz.

Consider that Bill A. used his audio amp at a frequency in the approximate range 3000-4000 cycles and this is well within the design of this piece of equipment.

In each case Bill found a freq. that each transformer maxed out on. The conventional transformer could not go up nearly as high as the SFT2 because of the core material difference.

In my work pulsing coils, 9000hz and under for pulse DC is where the power increases come. That's just one small area of work, not to say that many freq could not offer excellent power.

At such high frequencies well beyond the capability of the amplifier it will produce a harmonic and another as the oscillations increase till your scope might read many waveforms depending on what you tune to read.


But I am sure you know the difference.

Like Dog-One pointed out the OUTPUT TRANSFORMER on the AMP. This is a good place to reconsider where you might change the freq to.

Right now I have not even tuned my primary.

I am tinkering at 60hz and thinking that if my amplifier shows me phony readings, what will I do? We are stuck with these meters you know, so I figure we must use them.

Yes use these meters the way they are made to work. This is what I will do. Plug motor one into the grid. Motor 2 picks up the power transferred and I am ISOLATED.

Okay I am Isolated.

Next put a watt meter on the wall. Okay a watt meter on the other side of my now isolated power source.

Next add a cap that causes the motor to become a generator. You may not know this but this is how all of our modern wind turbines work. They use motors in reverse which requires cap banks to operate.

Another thing you may not know. When a cap is installed on the GENERATING MOTOR (number 2 motor) it begins to supply power. The rule of thumb in this type of generating with motors is 100uf per HORSE POWER.

Okay then, say I put a 2uf cap on the GENERATING MOTOR, right?

What happens is the motor starting collecting charge and recirculating it till a split second later voltage appears. 120vac at 60hz pure sine wave if the RPM is 1850.

Now you may be asking yourself what on earth does this all have to do with anything. It does many things just watch this.

Now we have voltage. The 2 uf cap is not enough so from experience I can tell you that the most you can draw from the GENERATOR (That is a standard induction motor) is about 100ma. So put a 20uf and you can get 1 amp and put a bank of 100uf and you will have 10 amps.


Now you might say "so what" but watch this. When the capacitor is small the power capability is say 1 amp. What happens when you draw 1.5 amps?


It drops it's field, it loses it's magnetic fields and stops generating so this is a sort of power limiting device when used this way. The point is you can set the max power usage with no damage with the right cap size just like the wind turbine power conditioning stations do.

Now maybe you can see where i am going. Set the output within the operation of your amplifier. Next put a meter in the line to watch the amp draw.

At the other end the SFT2 will produce power out to run loads yet at super high frequencies these meters won't read correctly until THAT POWER is rectified.

Hey scope it all you want but rectify it, collect it and measure it just like Dog-One is saying.

This is the best I can do today based on my thought s with this project.

Now lets say I THINK I have a BiTT or a MEG or a SFT2 that has a COP of 2.

Then even with all of the losses in motor 1 transferring power to GENERATOR motor 2 I should be able to some how produce a self running system.

Even an old UPS "uninterrupted Power Source" could be used to bypass the motor generating system, THEN send back a pulse to the battery operating the low efficiency back up unit. All of my UPS boxes employ a simple transformer and those things work great. Pure sine wave Awesome tool.

You don't want to build a motor generator? Fine, use a UPS to make the job short and sweet. However I will have a few advantages because I can witness first hand the rotating mass fluctuation when power in demanded.

Just like the SERPS demo they wanted to merge this same type of overunity device with a MOTOR THAT IS A GENERATOR.

See why I am talking about this now? The RegenX same deal. All we have is an idea that must be applied to something to get anything.

It's your turn now. I am sure you can dr4eam something up just like the rest of us.

These are my thoughts. Run with it til you get it.

Mike

I'll have to do some more tests to get to the bottom of this but being stuck at work right now isn't helping.

One bit of evidence that I saw last night was that the phase angles might have the same time period shift. For example, I was seeing a phase shift of approximately 111 degrees when I was operating at 80khz and a phase shift of 138 degrees when operating at 200khz. If you look at the actual time period of the frequency and compare that to the phase displacement passed 90 degrees, you see that the phase shift is of approximately equal time periods. The phase was shifted by approximately 1.3 uS in each case. This seems to indicate some type of delay in my amplifier that makes itself more pronounced at higher frequencies. So it seems like the reason that I've been seeing negative power factors at higher frequencies is due to this characteristic. At lower frequencies, a delay of 1.3 uS won't really make much of a difference but at higher frequencies 1.3 uS could offset your phase enough to put the wave well into a negative power factor region. I'm by no means saying this explanation is fully correct but it does give me somewhere to start because I shouldn't see anything above a 90 degree phase shift with just a capacitor connected.

Sorry about getting anybody's hopes up..

Dave

[BroMikey]

Motor Generator Mini Grid

Using a mini version of the grid with a rotating mass (motor arm) you can HEAR the system pull down under load, you can HEAR the system be relieved JUST LIKE a gasoline genset.

If it is setting next to you on the bench you can witness the stress from the load by sound, vibration, amp draw

I can hardly wait to show you guys.




I have done many times

Mike

[BroMikey]

Mini grid

Or you could use a small sinwave inverter to power the amplifier off of batteries.

Then shoot some back to the battery from the BITT and if it is really is making 3,4,5X then there will be no problem. I have always wanted to set one up on the bench with small motors from the junk.

Mike

[BroMikey]

The motor generator is only to power the high frequency amp. This simulates the grid only. I will show you guys in a video when it is done. I have 100 motors.

This is like a dyno, it is only a way to monitor loads and losses.

Of course there are many other ways.

To late Dave I already have high hopes for all of us, especially your system

Mike


[QUOTE=Web000x;
@bromikey, it is going to be rather difficult to use a mechanical setup to drive this without investing more money than I'm willing to put down. I only see the negative power factor at higher frequencies so most conventional motors/generators are not an option.

Dave[/QUOTE]

[Web000x]

I was afraid of something like that. I'll do a check on my amp and see if I get similar results. I know my 300 watt Pyramid amp has a big transformer on the output so it can be connected to 4, 8, 16 ohm, plus 70 volt speaker setups.

My thought was that an inductive load causes amperage to lag the voltage, whereas a capacitive load has amperage leading voltage. In either case though, 90 degrees should be the limit, with 180 degrees being the midpoint. So if you were seeing amperage lagging voltage by 106 degrees, I can't see how that could be anything other than what you saw, otherwise the amplitude would be inverted.

So here's my thinking...

What we really need to see is an energy gain. If you charge a cap of known value with a particular voltage, you have a known unit of energy in joules. If you dump this into an SFT with a shorted output, you should see some magnitude of energy sent back to you. A standard inductor would always send back LESS energy than you put in, but with the SFT, we should see an equal or greater amount. Otherwise the SFT isn't doing what we think it should be doing. I suspect we will need to do some integration (area under the curve) to get the solid numbers. And we may need to switch in the cap for the cap dump, then switch over to a resistive load to see the inductive discharge. If we don't, then the tank circuit will continue to oscillate. Of course if it did continue to oscillate and the amplitude continued to increase, we'd know the SFT does indeed have gain. If it oscillates and dies out, then we'd know it doesn't as well.

Trying different size caps to see if we find a value that sustains ringing might prove useful too.

I'll have to do some more tests to get to the bottom of this but being stuck at work right now isn't helping. I have a feeling that this phenomena is a product of the solid state circuitry that I'm using to drive my load. Using an isolation transformer might give me a more accurate reading. This way the solid state components will be isolated from the test circuit. Only problem is that I'll have to tune the isolation transformer to operate at higher frequencies. Not a big deal..

Another option that I have is getting some tubes for my tube amp as it has an audio transformer on the output so there would be a similar means of isolation.

@bromikey, it is going to be rather difficult to use a mechanical setup to drive this without investing more money than I'm willing to put down. I only see the negative power factor at higher frequencies so most conventional motors/generators are not an option.

One bit of evidence that I saw last night was that the phase angles might have the same time period shift. For example, I was seeing a phase shift of approximately 111 degrees when I was operating at 80khz and a phase shift of 138 degrees when operating at 200khz. If you look at the actual time period of the frequency and compare that to the phase displacement passed 90 degrees, you see that the phase shift is of approximately equal time periods. The phase was shifted by approximately 1.3 uS in each case. This seems to indicate some type of delay in my amplifier that makes itself more pronounced at higher frequencies. So it seems like the reason that I've been seeing negative power factors at higher frequencies is due to this characteristic. At lower frequencies, a delay of 1.3 uS won't really make much of a difference but at higher frequencies 1.3 uS could offset your phase enough to put the wave well into a negative power factor region. I'm by no means saying this explanation is fully correct but it does give me somewhere to start because I shouldn't see anything above a 90 degree phase shift with just a capacitor connected.

Sorry about getting anybody's hopes up..

Dave

[Dog-One]

Aaaah, crud!

So I'm beginning to see a potential flaw in my test setup. I'm still totally stumped by this and will have to do a lot of thinking to figure it out. I was messing around last night with trying to get a tank circuit tuned with the primary and I accidentally discovered that I can get a huge negative power factor in my circuit with just a capacitor hooked up to the output of the audio amplifier while the BiTT IS TOTALLY DISCONNECTED. This is probably why I see a negative power factor appear when I put capacitance in my secondary circuit. All of my claims have currently been invalidated until I can get a mechanical means of generating power for the circuit.

I was afraid of something like that. I'll do a check on my amp and see if I get similar results. I know my 300 watt Pyramid amp has a big transformer on the output so it can be connected to 4, 8, 16 ohm, plus 70 volt speaker setups.

My thought was that an inductive load causes amperage to lag the voltage, whereas a capacitive load has amperage leading voltage. In either case though, 90 degrees should be the limit, with 180 degrees being the midpoint. So if you were seeing amperage lagging voltage by 106 degrees, I can't see how that could be anything other than what you saw, otherwise the amplitude would be inverted.

So here's my thinking...

What we really need to see is an energy gain. If you charge a cap of known value with a particular voltage, you have a known unit of energy in joules. If you dump this into an SFT with a shorted output, you should see some magnitude of energy sent back to you. A standard inductor would always send back LESS energy than you put in, but with the SFT, we should see an equal or greater amount. Otherwise the SFT isn't doing what we think it should be doing. I suspect we will need to do some integration (area under the curve) to get the solid numbers. And we may need to switch in the cap for the cap dump, then switch over to a resistive load to see the inductive discharge. If we don't, then the tank circuit will continue to oscillate. Of course if it did continue to oscillate and the amplitude continued to increase, we'd know the SFT does indeed have gain. If it oscillates and dies out, then we'd know it doesn't as well.

Trying different size caps to see if we find a value that sustains ringing might prove useful too.

[BroMikey]

Generators

So I'm beginning to see a potential flaw in my test setup. I'm still totally stumped by this and will have to do a lot of thinking to figure it out. I was messing around last night with trying to get a tank circuit tuned with the primary and I accidentally discovered that I can get a huge negative power factor in my circuit with just a capacitor hooked up to the output of the audio amplifier while the BiTT IS TOTALLY DISCONNECTED. This is probably why I see a negative power factor appear when I put capacitance in my secondary circuit. All of my claims have currently been invalidated until I can get a mechanical means of generating power for the circuit.


Dave

Hi Dave

Yes I know the way you feel. Here is what I was thinking. Turn a motor using a motor, say two tiny induction types from any old devices the size of a golf ball.

Drill motors and blender motor might work too but I was thinking more like fan motors. Hook one motor to the other direct coupling using a piece of rubber hose and two hose clamps. I have done this type of "RAG JOINT" before.

One time the motor was hooked to gas engine so I used branded hydraulic hose with a sleeve over top on each end and pins drilled through both shaft and hose.

One tiny motor runs the other and unless you gang up caps on the output motor nothing is generated. All of my motor to motor for generating AC power produced wattage at around 90 percent of their run rating.

Now you have an AC source you can hook your amp up for monitoring amounts that can easily be measured. You can hear the rotor slow down and speed up when energy is called for in the circuit.

A perfectly tailored set of tiny motors like two one amp fan motors could provide 60hz at the rated voltage to your small amplifier. I have measure the frequency and to do this you need to have one motor that turns faster than the other because to make a motor generate you need to move the RMP up from 1750 RPM to about 1850 RPM.

This is the reason I say use fan motors because they all have 3 speeds. This way the medium speed that is around 1000 rpms can be driven by another fan motor on HI SPEED.

You get the idea, this gives you some control without so many complications such as pullies and belts to match rpm to the 60HZ.

Or you could use an RC car H bridge controller for $20 to run the drive motor from a battery and up higher up.

Or you could use a dimmer for lights to throttle back the drive motor.

Once you can generate the tiny bit of AC power needed to supply your experiment, it will be easy to tell when the generating motor is under load or if the rotor is actually being assisted.


I am thinking today about all of my old experiments. The way this got started was I needed to run a saws all on the back end of my property but I didn't have a generator.

I had a gas motor and some electrical motors so i hooked them together and have been cutting branches off ever since. It works great for lights too.


Mike

[BroMikey]

Important Probe Facts

Hey Dog-One

Good to hear because I know nothing about any of these facts. Now I will go look.

Mike

Be careful of the Amp Clamps. Many of them cannot run in audio range and is the reason Tektronix sells theirs for $1500 and up.

If you are buying probes anyway, I'd give some thought to getting a pair of differential probes and just use a small ( < 1 ohm ) shunt for current readings. Diff probes are pricey too, but they make taking measurements so simple because you no longer have to worry about where the ground loops are. You just connect across any two points in the circuit and away you go.

[Web000x]

So I'm beginning to see a potential flaw in my test setup. I'm still totally stumped by this and will have to do a lot of thinking to figure it out. I was messing around last night with trying to get a tank circuit tuned with the primary and I accidentally discovered that I can get a huge negative power factor in my circuit with just a capacitor hooked up to the output of the audio amplifier while the BiTT IS TOTALLY DISCONNECTED. This is probably why I see a negative power factor appear when I put capacitance in my secondary circuit. All of my claims have currently been invalidated until I can get a mechanical means of generating power for the circuit.


Dave