Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect

[qvision]

@Allen, this makes sense since the classic bifilar wind (not the kind Bedini fans talk of) is a non-inductive wind.

But we are seeing the same effect with a normally-wound but high-impedance coil too, lots to explore !

My next wire delivery isn't until next week, can anyone try a proper bifilar-wound coil :

Bifilar coil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and see what happens ?


QV.

[Allen Burgess]

Here are two quotes I feel support one another. The 1st from Nhilrehob/ Hiens and third redacted from Tesla:

"Prime mover acceleration is created by increasing and exploiting the generator coils self induced capacitance. Now at desired frequencies the generator coils no longer operate as inductors, storing energy in the Electromagnetic Field around the coil, but instead they operate as capacitors, storing energy in the Electrostatic Field - between the wires inside the coil".

Increasing the Hysteresis loop:

"As for the Bifilar coils Tesla stated that the only resistance to the flow of current in such a coil is the resistive or ohmic value of the wire used to make the coil and that these bifilar coils are capacitors."

1.-"Prime mover acceleration is created by increasing and exploiting the generator coils self induced capacitance"

2.-" Bifilar coils are capacitors"

How do these last two quotes add up?

Bifilar coils increase prime mover acceleration!

[qvision]

I've made a small update which fixes some accuracy on final output voltage, the new file is here :

Number of Turns2.xls

[qvision]

@Shadesz

The formula is from 'A Wind Turbine Recipe Book', by Hugh Piggott.

The 1.4 is the voltage loss due to rectification.

The 11 is a bit more complicated so here's the page with the maths :



This works for 3-phase designs but i'm unsure of anything else.

If anyone spots a mistake in it or thinks of enhancements please advise me and we can correct/update the spreadsheet.

The Wind Turbine book can be found here :

Hugh_Piggott_-_A_Wind_Turbine_Recipe_Book__The_Axial_Flux_Windmi ll_Plans__Jan_2009_Metric_edition.pdf

QV.

[Shadesz]

This spreadsheet is handy, i put it together for wind turbine alternator calculations.

You input :

1. The desired output voltage (rectified DC).
2. Magnet face area (square metres).
3. Magnet strength (Teslas, just divide your Gauss by 10,000)
4. RPM.

It outputs :

1. The number of turns needed to achieve the desired output.

This number of turns is PER PHASE, so, if you have a 3-phase alternator and 2 coils per phase then each coil in that phase has half of the total number of turns.

2. The projected, actual rectified DC voltage you should get.

You have to change the extension of the attached file from '.doc' to '.xls' because of the filetype upload rules here.

*EDIT* All of the above relates to gen coils in series. *EDIT*


Hope this helps,

QV.

Interesting spreadsheet! Thanks!

Question on it... it appears you use the following formula...

(desired voltage + 1.4)*11) / ( area of magnet face in sqr meters * strength of magnet in tesla * RPM)

Can I ask where you got the formula?

Also, how did you derive the 1.4 and the 11 in the numerator?

Thanks in advance.

[qvision]

Handy excel spreadsheet

This spreadsheet is handy, i put it together for wind turbine alternator calculations.

You input :

1. The desired output voltage (rectified DC).
2. Magnet face area (square metres).
3. Magnet strength (Teslas, just divide your Gauss by 10,000)
4. RPM.

It outputs :

1. The number of turns needed to achieve the desired output.

This number of turns is PER PHASE, so, if you have a 3-phase alternator and 2 coils per phase then each coil in that phase has half of the total number of turns.

2. The projected, actual rectified DC voltage you should get.

You have to change the extension of the attached file from '.doc' to '.xls' because of the filetype upload rules here.

*EDIT* All of the above relates to gen coils in series. *EDIT*


Hope this helps,

QV.

[Shadesz]

Side note

I'm thinking the speed (RPM) required for acceleration is related to the cores hysteresis loop. I have not yet made any conclusions as to the type of loop we want. Do we want a square loop, a flat loop, an open loop, a gradual slope, etc?

Collecting data would be great!

What we would need is a gauss measurement on your rotor magnets (can be obtained form the manufacture), the size of those magnets, how far those magnets are from the core, how far they are from the coil, how heavy the core weighs by itself, and exactly what the core is... IE, the link to actual product (that way we can look up the loop for each core).

If anyone has achieved acceleration and doesn't know what to do now, would you mind helping me out? This may help us control RPM, and help others repeat the acceleration effect.

[Farmhand]

Quote from Farmhand:

Is the point to get electrical output or just to spin a rotor really fast ?

Counterpoint:

The Lenz propulsion coil does not have to deliver the output. It would work better to generate the output from a seperate lower impedence coil of thicker windings and higher amperage. Someone pointed out that Thane Heins wraps the two kinds of coils around the same core; The high voltage thin wire shorted one to motor the rotor, and a second thicker wire wrap to slow it down with Lenz generated output of lower voltage and increased current. Two coils in one!

Yes I'm aware of the two coils in one, but I'm wondering how that won't just take it back to square one but with more wire and complexity.

My gripe is the full picture is never given even though OU is claimed by some. If a scope shot is shown from the high impedance coil when shorting and not. And from the low impedance coil when shorted and not would give a better picture. Also showing the input power and the light bulb load, we should be able to see the RPM on the scope enough to see it speed up and slow.

The wave form should show what is happening as far as the output and the high impedance coil are concerned when shorted or loaded. What's happening on the scope when the effect is seen, is the question.

Also the input power difference between Thane's way of lighting a bulb and the normal low speed way of lighting the bulb would be good, the low speed way should be done in a way that is suited to the regular way of doing it too, not done with coils built for the high speed operation. In other words a generator of average efficiency. Most of us have an idea of what it takes to light a bulb of a certain wattage the regular way at average efficiency. We need to beat the efficiency of the regular way surely, or what is the point.

The maximum output possible from a given input level should also be compared between the two ways.

After all it is supposed to be more efficient than other ways, not just more efficient than a setup built for high speed run slowly. Incandescent bulbs take some lighting, thats for sure, I don't find it easy at all.

The way I see it we pay to make the sine wave which is the potential output. If we flatten the sine wave there is no potential output so we kind of kill the output doing that, which defeats the purpose of the whole exercise.

The only reason I can see to use an electrical generator from an electrical source would be if a higher voltage is needed than the source voltage or a different type of current/s, such as AC from a battery source, or 60 volts DC from a 12 volt source or some such thing.

Cheers

P.S. Overunityguide's video's are very good because they show just how much more power it require's to spin the rotor that much faster to get the saving. A small saving made from a large increase in input power. Seems to be heading the wrong way.

If low impedance coils are added to generate power that will cause drag and probably negate any savings made.

[Allen Burgess]

Output

Quote from Farmhand:

Is the point to get electrical output or just to spin a rotor really fast ?

Counterpoint:

The Lenz propulsion coil does not have to deliver the output. It would work better to generate the output from a seperate lower impedence coil of thicker windings and higher amperage. Someone pointed out that Thane Heins wraps the two kinds of coils around the same core; The high voltage thin wire shorted one to motor the rotor, and a second thicker wire wrap to slow it down with Lenz generated output of lower voltage and increased current. Two coils in one!

[SkyWatcher]

Hi folks, I understand your perspective farmhand.
If people want a lentzless generator that powers a load just fine and does not slow down when under load.
Then I suggest building an ecklin type flux gate generator.

I built one awhile back that worked very well, I used a dual rotors with flat steel pieces 1/4" thick, 6 on each rotor, that sandwiched the coil/core and neo magnet.

This steel flux gate completed the flux path between the separate coil/core and the neo magnet generating good output power, without slowing the motor at all.
Would it self run, maybe.
Though point is, it had no lentz drag from zero rpm on up.
peace love light
tyson

[Farmhand]

Here's yet another concrete video demonstration of the "Lenz Delay Propulsion" effect uploaded yesterday by "mariuscivic":

strange behavior of the coil - YouTube

To me it looks like the rotor sped up without the bulb/load as well, and probably just as much or more than when shorted. Or did you miss that ? And when the coil was loaded and then shorted the load stopped receiving power because the generator coil became a motor coil using the power it generated itself to speed up the rotor, at this point it kind of stopped being a generator and just became a motor.

Seems like a very similar effect to what Overunityguide showed but with a rotor speed increase as well as using a bit less power. I noticed the volts meter voltage rose when the coil was shorted so less load on the supply.

Still he is correct it is strange behavior of the coil for sure ! Especially if you want to light the second bulb but when you connect it they both go out and the rotor speeds up. But for what? If the rotor is loaded mechanically or with other generator coils it will use more power again or go faster.

Is the point to get electrical output or just to spin a rotor really fast ?

I also think if it was just delaying Lenz there would still be electrical output from the coil, but the load is robbed of power.

Cheers

[Allen Burgess]

Lenz delay proof.

Here's yet another concrete video demonstration of the "Lenz Delay Propulsion" effect uploaded yesterday by "mariuscivic":

strange behavior of the coil - YouTube

[Mr.Whip]

Hello I just had a comment on Farmhands post

In my simple way of looking at things cogging is different to Lenz, because cogging will happen without any power being developed like when turning by hand. But Lens I think is caused by electricity. So eliminating cogging should not automatically eliminate Lenz. I don't think.

On my motor I have 6 coils and 6 magnets lots of cogging. But at 12.09 V and 200ma I can short the coils and the motor speeds up motor draw iis still only 200ma So I'm in agreement with the statments that coil impedence and freq.- speed of magnets passing coils makes a huge difference and a delayed or Less lenz effect present. There is defently a window of oppertunity here to advance these effect.


When the generator is spinning its magnets past the coils with no load at normal speed there is some drag, then when if all go's well when power is drawn, before the sine wave is dragged down (which causes lens to show and slow the motor) limiting the output the generator, the motor (prime mover) will increase power to overcome it so there is more power availiable for more load.

My simple Bedini swith does not require more power when loaded. But motor will have to be strong enough to sustain its rotational speed to manage load true.

Thanks

Randy W.

[Farmhand]

I have to admitt, you are right. It all helps. And could very well be a big benifit to many situations, including both motors and generators like windmills and such. The thing is a motor generator needs to be able to power a load not just go faster. Swapping electrical output for speed, I see no use for unless for driving a wheel like a car or something and then does load on the rotor like that cause more power to be consumed or less ? Or does some load cause more speed ?

It needs to be somehow usefull.

With a solid state setup I just tune it to give more power if i want it, up to a limit of of course, things will get warm if it's overdone, and that uses more input power, but it is still efficient.

I hope I don't seem like a big wowser , I like to see things spin fast too.
AlternateFarmhand1's Channel - YouTube

There could be something to it, but I think it could be more related to an increase in rotational speed or rotational power for efficiency than electrical output, from what I've seen. I admitt I haven't seen all the video's related to this stuff either.

All research is good.

Cheers

[Shadesz]

Yes but that's a Muller, it uses the asymetrical relationship between the rotor and stator forces to reduce drag from cogging. And he's actually got a computer controlled one. Very cool.

In my simple way of looking at things cogging is different to Lenz, because cogging will happen without any power being developed like when turning by hand. But Lens I think is caused by electricity. So eliminating cogging should not automatically eliminate Lenz. I don't think.

When the generator is spinning its magnets past the coils with no load at normal speed there is some drag, then when if all go's well when power is drawn, before the sine wave is dragged down (which causes lens to show and slow the motor) limiting the output the generator, the motor (prime mover) will increase power to overcome it so there is more power availiable for more load.

Otherwise you just ran out of output.

The higher impedance of the coil and the higher frequency I think will seriously limit the ability of the coil to output power. But I might be wrong.

I still don't get it. A Muller is different.

I agree that lenz is a different monster than cogging. However, your original criticism (not in a bad way) was questioning the power input required to overcome cogging AND lenz. I simply wanted you to realize that you can't criticize OG's current power input requirements because when you remove cogging from the equation you reduce the required input power that much more.

Lenz is a whole different story. I have some ideas to overcome it, but they don't assume high speed is all you need. In fact, I believe you can overcome lenz at lower magnet speeds by designing a coil that relates the magnets strength to the cores hysteresis loop. But that is for another thread, another time, and waiting for me to generate some data to back it up.

My original point holds, by designing a lenz tricking generator using a non whole coil to magnet ratio, you cancel out the energy needed to overcome cogging.