gravity waves found

[Harvey]

@ Solrey,

No worries


@ David,

It's edible LOL - So when we get to Mars we can eat the ship

I missed those Shleren motion shots with the butane and the flame, do you know where they are? Thanx

[david lambright]

SEAgel

check this out too!....SEAgel...YouTube - SEAgel Aerogel lighter than air solid. Not a UFO

[solrey]

You have clearly proven that you would rather argue than learn.

We are discussing natural convection and why it is absolutely dependent on gravity.

Harvey, I'm not trying to argue. I thought we were talking about convection in general based on your first comment on the subject.

Convection is a gravitational reaction where a volume of gas with lower density is pushed up by surrounding gases of the same volume but greater density.

You never used the term natural convection in that post.

Whatever the case, the rest of us recognize the difference between natural convection and forced convection and the absolute dependence on gravity for natural convection to occur.

Yeah, I know the difference. But you weren't specific at first.
Perhaps neither of us noticed that you later switched gears and started using the specific term natural convection all of a sudden? David wasn't specific, he just used the general term convection also. So basically my comments were pointing out that there is more than one type of convection, like you said.

Anyway, apologies for taunting you. That wasn't cool on my part.

[david lambright]

air or gas movement

Yes you are.

But to be fair, your Schleren tests should have shown comparisons - for example, to rule out air movement, you would have needed to demonstrate that your mirror could show air movement. The same is true for natural convection from thermal exchanges.

So unfortunately we still cannot rule out air density variations or thermal exchanges - all we can say conclusively is that your Schleren tests did not show those things. I had the same problem here with my tests. My mirror was not good enough nor large enough to see any effects even with a lit match. I don't think I posted any of my videos of those experiments.

in a couple of the "shhlieren" vids you can see the butane flowing from a lighter, and a flame......david

[gravityblock]

The material itself has amazing properties and is really interesting like you said. This material will change the world once the costs of it comes down. For those who may be interested, at the 36 minute mark in the video I posted about the aerogels, it talks about aerogel's optical properties and at the 40 minute mark it talks about heat transfer.

GB

[Harvey]

It would be interesting to know how experiments with aerogels would interact with David's device, since aerogels almost nullify the three methods of heat transfer (convection, conduction, and radiation). How will the flame react with David's device and an aerogel?

Aerogels: The Materials Science of Empty Space. This is a long video, but at least watch the first 6 minutes on this frozen smoke (aerogel) and the related videos.

GB

If you have ever had the opportunity to hold this stuff, it really is an interesting material - but extremely fragile.

[gravityblock]

Well Solrey,
We are discussing natural convection and why it is absolutely dependent on gravity. For some strange reason you want to generalize things and pretend in your own imagination that forced convection is the same thing as natural convection - it is not.

It would be interesting to know how experiments with aerogels would interact with David's device, since aerogels almost nullify the three methods of heat transfer (convection, conduction, and radiation). How will the glimmer effect or flame react with David's device and an aerogel?

Aerogels: The Materials Science of Empty Space. This is a long video, but at least watch the first 6 minutes on this frozen smoke (aerogel) if you don't have much time. Also, try and watch the related videos.

GB

[Harvey]

I read that Leonardo Da Vinci also had a similar problem.

In his case however, he was reasoning that air has weight, and creating a vacuum from the inside of a sphere would make the sphere lighter and induce buoyancy. IIRC, his spheres were made of Iron - so his experiment failed because the displacement was not sufficient.

From a scientific point of view, the rigidity is not a factor, otherwise ships would not float. It is more likely, that the displacement was insufficient in their case and the rigid enclosure prohibited the needed expansion to get to a proper displacement.

In modern day dirigibles, gases are used to prevent collapse. If we could construct a framework and surround it with a strong enough material, then a vacuum could be pulled on the vessel interior and it would be lighter than air by virtue of the displacement. I have designed such a craft using a titanium center support and lightweight carbon composite struts arranged in a staged hexagonal and pentagonal frame work. The exterior is to be overlaid with Mylar. At the proper diameter, the structure becomes lighter than air by virtue of the displacement. I just never had the ambition to build it.

[Harvey]

most of the time, radiation is "invisible" or at least hard to see...we see the rising of heat as a mirage...in water we see it as a wavy distortion, but there must be a medium. we do not see gravity, but can see its effects....light and heat both radiate but light does not "rise"....my device makes the same mirage type effect, but with no heat...this is significant....using the schlieren method, i have shown that there is no movement of air causing the shimmer effect, there is no heat causing it either. it is not a chemical action. what we do know is that gravity has a part in heat wave shimmer....am i making any kind of sense here ??...david

Yes you are.

But to be fair, your Schleren tests should have shown comparisons - for example, to rule out air movement, you would have needed to demonstrate that your mirror could show air movement. The same is true for natural convection from thermal exchanges.

So unfortunately we still cannot rule out air density variations or thermal exchanges - all we can say conclusively is that your Schleren tests did not show those things. I had the same problem here with my tests. My mirror was not good enough nor large enough to see any effects even with a lit match. I don't think I posted any of my videos of those experiments.

[Harvey]

The density gradient of the atmosphere which is due to gravity.
Come on David, don't be so thick. This is eezybreezy stuff dude. At least take the time to read the links I post.


Harvey.
From the quote you posted about convection in zero gravity:


Thanks. Proved my point right there. Betcha didn't even realize it.

Well Solrey,

You have clearly proven that you would rather argue than learn.

We are discussing natural convection and why it is absolutely dependent on gravity. For some strange reason you want to generalize things and pretend in your own imagination that forced convection is the same thing as natural convection - it is not.

All I have proven, if anything, is that you get your terms mixed up either purposely for the sake of trying to make yourself appear superior in some way (which isn't working) or out of honest failure to see all the details. Whatever the case, the rest of us recognize the difference between natural convection and forced convection and the absolute dependence on gravity for natural convection to occur.

I'll be looking forward to the day when I can truly learn something new from you.

[david lambright]

mirage

most of the time, radiation is "invisible" or at least hard to see...we see the rising of heat as a mirage...in water we see it as a wavy distortion, but there must be a medium. we do not see gravity, but can see its effects....light and heat both radiate but light does not "rise"....my device makes the same mirage type effect, but with no heat...this is significant....using the schlieren method, i have shown that there is no movement of air causing the shimmer effect, there is no heat causing it either. it is not a chemical action. what we do know is that gravity has a part in heat wave shimmer....am i making any kind of sense here ??...david

[john_g]

[david lambright]

thick

it is not as easy breezy as that....ok...forget the flame...lets try this...lets say you have a balloon filled with warmer air than the air outside the balloon...in a gravity environment, the balloon will rise right?.....that same balloon at zero G does not rise at all....but the temperature will equalize...radiation comes into play....you kindof have to think outside the sphere......so this rising is not connected to heat, it is connected to gravity....does anyone see what i am talking about?.....if we can make artificial gravity, by spinning, we should be able to make artificial levity also.....david

[solrey]

so what is causing rising hot air to ....well rise

The density gradient of the atmosphere which is due to gravity.
Come on David, don't be so thick. This is eezybreezy stuff dude. At least take the time to read the links I post.


Harvey.
From the quote you posted about convection in zero gravity:

or (in high oxygen environments in "still" gas environments) entirely from the minimal forced convection that occurs as heat-induced expansion (not buoyancy ) of gases allows for ventilation of the flame, as waste gases move outward and cool, and fresh high-oxygen gas moves in to take up the low pressure zones created when flame-exhaust water condenses.

Thanks. Proved my point right there. Betcha didn't even realize it.

[david lambright]

heat rises in a gravity feild

at zero G, there is no more rising of heat...the flame is a sphere..all the other stuff solrey said is pretty correct, but heat rising only happens in a gravitational field....at zero G everything weighs the same, zero....mass is not weight inertia is not weight...so what is causing rising hot air to ....well rise....david