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  • bistander
    replied
    Originally posted by BroMikey View Post

    How does it feel? Every post for 5 + years you have been changing our words around to suit.
    How do you like it? Still your way of picking out small details without adding the entire amount is no different. Here let me show you how to talk right.

    A 10ton truck gets 1 mpg going down the road at 75mph
    A 1 ton VW gets 100 mpg going down the road at 75 mph

    The big truck takes 100X more to run than the VW, but it doesn't cost any more than that as long as you don't go faster? HUH? Okay yeah, am I missing something here. It stays the same? Yeah it stays the same costing the truck 100X more but they are both running the same but not speeding up? HUH? Yeah
    It's the unbalanced forces which require the energy to do the work not the mass. Ask a physics professor or read a physics textbook.

    Leave a comment:


  • bistander
    replied
    Originally posted by Turion View Post

    I absolutely agree with this. The ONLY time mass enters into the equation is when you are changing the speed of a SPECIFIC rotor or when that SPECIFIC rotor is affected by an unbalanced force. Then Newton's laws apply to THAT SPECIFIC (and to others as well) rotor as it sits. But we are talking about comparing two DIFFERENT rotors, not how Newtons' laws apply to one rotor. One rotor is light. One rotor is heavy. The power needed to accelerate one rotor to a specific speed and maintain it is different than the power needed to accelerate the OTHER rotor to a specific speed and maintain it. When both are running at exactly the same speed as maintained by the motor, one will draw MORE amps. Just like it takes more power to drive a VW bug at 30 miles per hour on a level road than it does to drive a semi at 30 mile per hour on a level road. Moving mass over distance requires energy. Moving MORE mass over that SAME distance requires MORE energy. Just because a rotor is ROUND doesn't mean there is no mass there that has to be moved to rotate it. You can quote anybody you want, but you cannot change the FACTS with theories. I understand EXACTLY what Newton teaches. Apparently you don't.

    As to how this discussion began. As I recall, it began because you LIED and said I told you I know more than Newton, which I never said. Never. And you know it. And you still haven't admitted that I never said it. BUT whether you admit it or NOT the fact is, you lied. You keep trying to put those words in my mouth, but they don't fit, and never will.
    Turion,

    I don't have to put words in your mouth. You do it. In the first paragraph above you say you agree with Newton but then go on a few sentences later and totally contradict what he says in his first law of motion. So doesn't than mean that you think that you know more about physics of motion than Sir Isaac? How does that simple conclusion on my part constitute a lie? Seems valid to me.

    You're entitled to disagree with Newton. You disagree with a lot of experts and established principles of physics from what I see you post. I try to give the members and readers the correct interpretation as I see it. Hopefully they will consider both views, research and study, or at least think about it instead of blindly following you.

    Regards,

    bi

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by bistander View Post

    It's not nice to alter one's quote.

    Both the heavy truck and the VW require no fuel to continue motion at the same speed in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force. That is what Newton tells us and is fact.

    Regards,

    bi
    How does it feel? Every post for 5 + years you have been changing our words around to suit.
    How do you like it? Still your way of picking out small details without adding the entire amount is no different. Here let me show you how to talk right.

    A 10ton truck gets 1 mpg going down the road at 75mph
    A 1 ton VW gets 100 mpg going down the road at 75 mph

    The big truck takes 100X more to run than the VW, but it doesn't cost any more than that as long as you don't go faster? HUH? Okay yeah, am I missing something here. It stays the same? Yeah it stays the same costing the truck 100X more but they are both running the same but not speeding up? HUH? Yeah

    Leave a comment:


  • Turion
    replied
    Originally posted by bistander View Post

    Newton's Law always has the stipulation. Mass is not a factor when turning the rotor. It enters into the equation when changing speed or when affected by an unbalanced force, as Newton says. Generators typically run at constant speed.

    ​​​
    I absolutely agree with this. The ONLY time mass enters into the equation is when you are changing the speed of a SPECIFIC rotor or when that SPECIFIC rotor is affected by an unbalanced force. Then Newton's laws apply to THAT SPECIFIC (and to others as well) rotor as it sits. But we are talking about comparing two DIFFERENT rotors, not how Newtons' laws apply to one rotor. One rotor is light. One rotor is heavy. The power needed to accelerate one rotor to a specific speed and maintain it is different than the power needed to accelerate the OTHER rotor to a specific speed and maintain it. When both are running at exactly the same speed as maintained by the motor, one will draw MORE amps. Just like it takes more power to drive a VW bug at 30 miles per hour on a level road than it does to drive a semi at 30 mile per hour on a level road. Moving mass over distance requires energy. Moving MORE mass over that SAME distance requires MORE energy. Just because a rotor is ROUND doesn't mean there is no mass there that has to be moved to rotate it. You can quote anybody you want, but you cannot change the FACTS with theories. I understand EXACTLY what Newton teaches. Apparently you don't.

    As to how this discussion began. As I recall, it began because you LIED and said I told you I know more than Newton, which I never said. Never. And you know it. And you still haven't admitted that I never said it. BUT whether you admit it or NOT the fact is, you lied. You keep trying to put those words in my mouth, but they don't fit, and never will.
    Last edited by Turion; 05-12-2020, 08:40 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • bistander
    replied
    Originally posted by Turion View Post
    bi,
    YOU are the one who is changing MY words by adding the phrase “a constant speed” to the end of my statements. I NEVER said “at a constant speed”

    I said it takes more amps to turn a heavier rotor than it does a lighter one because more work is required. This is a FACT. Why don’t you put a VW engine in a semi? Because more weight is attached to the motor shaft so you need more power to turn it. Newton’s law DOES factor in when you talk about rotation at a constant speed but that is NOT what I said in my original quote. It is something YOU added in so you could try to sound superior. All it does is show you up for what you really are.
    You said "turn". Not accelerate. And Newton's Law always has the stipulation. Mass is not a factor when turning the rotor. It enters into the equation when changing speed or when affected by an unbalanced force, as Newton says. Generators typically run at constant speed. Why would your machine be different?



    Originally posted by Turion View Post
    ... The rotor he is currently using is heavier than my original rotor so it may require more amps to turn it. It’s weight is almost double.
    ...

    Originally posted by Turion View Post
    ... For the LAST time, increased weight of the rotor is an increase in resistance to turning or increased LOAD on the motor. Come back when you have done your research and know what you’re talking about.
    Neither of these two statements by you indicate in any way you're talking about acceleration or unbalanced force. Increased weight of the rotor is NOT an increase in resistance to turning, as you said.

    If your vehicle was traveling at speed and there was no unbalanced force, it wouldn't need any engine to continue traveling at that same speed in the same direction. That is what Newton teaches. Learn it or ignore it.

    Perhaps this current round of back&forth could had been avoided if you had engaged in a civil discussion when I first mentioned it instead of ridiculing me. But you still don't believe Newton, do you?

    Regards,

    bi
    ​​​

    Leave a comment:


  • Turion
    replied
    bi,
    YOU are the one who is changing MY words by adding the phrase “a constant speed” to the end of my statements. I NEVER said “at a constant speed”

    I said it takes more amps to turn a heavier rotor than it does a lighter one because more work is required. This is a FACT. Why don’t you put a VW engine in a semi? Because more weight is attached to the motor shaft so you need more power to turn it. Newton’s law DOES factor in when you talk about rotation at a constant speed but that is NOT what I said in my original quote. It is something YOU added in so you could try to sound superior. All it does is show you up for what you really are.

    Leave a comment:


  • bistander
    replied
    Originally posted by BroMikey View Post

    What you are saying is that a 2 ton rotor takes more power to run than a 2 pound rotor. Well that is a first step and not what you had mistakenly said and later corrected. And your reason why? Why does it take more energy? Newton is your answer?

    LOL, sorry I can't hold it. Care to try another spin? Do you have anything further? A heavy truck takes more gas than a VW? Hum....? But why?
    It's not nice to alter one's quote. The actual quote is below. Eliminating 3 words changes the meaning of the sentence, doesn't it?

    Originally posted by bistander View Post
    ...
    It is obvious to me that you don't believe Newton and think that the heavier rotor requires additional power to rotate at constant speed due to its larger mass.

    Your new rotor may well take more amps to turn at constant speed, but not because it weighs more. ...
    Both the 2 ton rotor and the 2 pound rotor require zero power input to continue to rotate at the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force. Both the heavy truck and the VW require no fuel to continue motion at the same speed in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force. That is what Newton tells us and is fact.

    Regards,

    bi

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by bistander View Post

    ..... a generator operates at constant speed so acceleration is irrelevant





    Most generators operate at constant speed which is very well regulated .

    It is obvious to me that you don't believe .......... that the heavier rotor requires additional power to rotate at constant speed ...................

    Your new rotor may well take more amps to turn at constant speed, but not because it weighs more

    bi
    What you are saying is that a 2 ton rotor takes the same power to run than a 2 pound rotor. Well that is a first step and not what you had mistakenly said and later corrected. And your reason why? Why does it take more energy? Newton is your answer?

    LOL, sorry I can't hold it. Care to try another spin? Do you have anything further? A heavy truck takes more gas than a VW? Hum....? But why?
    Last edited by BroMikey; 05-12-2020, 09:36 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • bistander
    replied
    Originally posted by Turion View Post
    A wheel or rotor is a form of lever. Anyone who has actually studied physics knows that. If I put two different weights on the end of my lever, the amount of force required to move them changes, so you either change the point of the fulcrum or you exert more force. Since you can't change the fulcrum on a wheel, you MUST exert more force. Turning a HEAVIER rotor is no different. Turning a heavier rotor requires more force than turning a light rotor, hence MORE AMPS. I don't care WHAT bi says.

    "Four things determine the effect of rotating mass. Every one of these things is important:
    1. How quickly and often a rotating mass speeds up or slows down. Every time it is forced to speed up or slow down, it takes or releases energy
    2. How heavy the rotating mass is. More weight (with no other changes) stores or releases more energy (Notice it STORES MORE ENERGY. You can't store MORE energy unless you INPUT more energy, hence the motor must draw more amps.)
    3. The rotating weight's distance outwards from the centerline. The further out, the more energy pushed in and out of a given weight
    4. How fast the weight spins, or the speed the weight travels in a given circle diameter. The higher the RPM, the more energy stored"
    https://www.w8ji.com/rotating_mass_acceleration.htm

    I said a bigger, thicker rotor with thicker magnets (out at the rim by the way) caused MORE AMP DRAW. And I get babble about Newton.
    You said "heavier" meaning its increased mass was the cause more power was required to turn the rotor. I looked it up and reposted your quote. And a generator operates at constant speed so acceleration is irrelevant and excluded from Newton's Law. We've, or should I say Newton and I, have been over all this in prior post to you.

    Originally posted by Turion View Post
    ... The rotor he is currently using is heavier than my original rotor so it may require more amps to turn it. It’s weight is almost double.
    ...

    Originally posted by Turion View Post
    ... For the LAST time, increased weight of the rotor is an increase in resistance to turning or increased LOAD on the motor. Come back when you have done your research and know what you’re talking about.
    Most generators operate at constant speed which is very well regulated to maintain line frequency. And are seldom shut down meaning acceleration is uncommon.

    It is obvious to me that you don't believe Newton and think that the heavier rotor requires additional power to rotate at constant speed due to its larger mass.

    Your new rotor may well take more amps to turn at constant speed, but not because it weighs more. Instead of denying Newton's Law, you might learn from it and gain advantage in the machine design. That's up to you.

    ​​​​​bi

    Leave a comment:


  • Turion
    replied
    A wheel or rotor is a form of lever. Anyone who has actually studied physics knows that. If I put two different weights on the end of my lever, the amount of force required to move them changes, so you either change the point of the fulcrum or you exert more force. Since you can't change the fulcrum on a wheel, you MUST exert more force. Turning a HEAVIER rotor is no different. Turning a heavier rotor requires more force than turning a light rotor, hence MORE AMPS. I don't care WHAT bi says.

    "Four things determine the effect of rotating mass. Every one of these things is important:
    1. How quickly and often a rotating mass speeds up or slows down. Every time it is forced to speed up or slow down, it takes or releases energy
    2. How heavy the rotating mass is. More weight (with no other changes) stores or releases more energy (Notice it STORES MORE ENERGY. You can't store MORE energy unless you INPUT more energy, hence the motor must draw more amps.)
    3. The rotating weight's distance outwards from the centerline. The further out, the more energy pushed in and out of a given weight
    4. How fast the weight spins, or the speed the weight travels in a given circle diameter. The higher the RPM, the more energy stored"
    https://www.w8ji.com/rotating_mass_acceleration.htm

    I said a bigger, thicker rotor with thicker magnets (out at the rim by the way) caused MORE AMP DRAW. And I get babble about Newton.
    Last edited by Turion; 05-12-2020, 06:21 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by bistander View Post

    But it seems as though you ignore or ridicule and attempt to silence those who disagree with you. Could you make an intelligent comment about the posts from dragon and me about your efficiency tests? Do you acknowledge mistakes? Most people can learn from mistakes. However if they are unaware of those errors, a teaching opportunity is lost, is it not?

    When I point out a disagreement like between Turion and Newton, you jump in and ridicule me, and Newton. Isn't your behavior in sharp contrast to what you just posted?

    Notice this is a calm, polite, respectful post where I ask you four or five questions. Will I get reply with answers and discussion, or be attacked and told to shut up?

    bi
    There has been no mistake, you heard me. These are called experiments, not mistakes. Yes I have answered everyone and am right. You can not see, that's all. Keep watching. Conventional generating relationships cause the amps to climb on the input when the load is connected respectively or proportionally.

    Special generating causes the input power to stay the same while harvesting copious amounts of energy similar to generators built today that will never exceed 90%. An infinity generator.

    Leave a comment:


  • bistander
    replied
    Originally posted by BroMikey View Post
    I would also like to address the "TEACHER TOLD ME" mindset. Repeating old basic rules that the schools have taught us is not the end of learning. There is not a teach who wishes for his or her students to stagnate. Innovation requires that you go above and beyond set values. Innovators and inventors must break out of the mold. Teach know that only a very few who they have had as students will probably come up with something new and more advanced. Somewhere around 1 in 100,000 students will do that. Dave is like this, he has gone to school and worked in schools all his life. Thane was also working to advance tech in college labs.

    A teacher is an oracle, they speak or teach what they are required by Big Govt. Often times teachers of science know that some of the data is not completely accurate but must spend all their time giving the student the basics. Many of your teachers word born early 1900's and have done the best they can with what they knew then with what THEY were taught. Teachers teach students to learn or should and once this is done you are on your own. The sky is the limit each year new knowledge is gained and we who live in the present must move on. It is a cop out to say that science teaches this or that so why bother?

    Not many have the gift of an innovator just like all people do not have the same gift so it is no shame to be unable to understand all of the gifts given unto mankind. Put everyone into the same package is the big mistake and causes conflict. Disagreements are the norm for the normies and is to be expected.
    But it seems as though you ignore or ridicule and attempt to silence those who disagree with you. Could you make an intelligent comment about the posts from dragon and me about your efficiency tests? Do you acknowledge mistakes? Most people can learn from mistakes. However if they are unaware of those errors, a teaching opportunity is lost, is it not?

    When I point out a disagreement like between Turion and Newton, you jump in and ridicule me, and Newton. Isn't your behavior in sharp contrast to what you just posted?

    Notice this is a calm, polite, respectful post where I ask you four or five questions. Will I get reply with answers and discussion, or be attacked and told to shut up?

    bi

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    I would also like to address the "TEACHER TOLD ME" mindset. Repeating old basic rules that the schools have taught us is not the end of learning. There is not a teach who wishes for his or her students to stagnate. Innovation requires that you go above and beyond set values. Innovators and inventors must break out of the mold. Teach know that only a very few who they have had as students will probably come up with something new and more advanced. Somewhere around 1 in 100,000 students will do that. Dave is like this, he has gone to school and worked in schools all his life. Thane was also working to advance tech in college labs.

    A teacher is an oracle, they speak or teach what they are required by Big Govt. Often times teachers of science know that some of the data is not completely accurate but must spend all their time giving the student the basics. Many of your teachers word born early 1900's and have done the best they can with what they knew then with what THEY were taught. Teachers teach students to learn or should and once this is done you are on your own. The sky is the limit each year new knowledge is gained and we who live in the present must move on. It is a cop out to say that science teaches this or that so why bother?

    Not many have the gift of an innovator just like all people do not have the same gift so it is no shame to be unable to understand all of the gifts given unto mankind. Put everyone into the same package is the big mistake and causes conflict. Disagreements are the norm for the normies and is to be expected.

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    In the past I have both welcomed Bistander to share and leave whenever he begins to insult. The new rule for BYE is to stay on your own thread if insults are on that days menu. It is clear you are after Dave's credibility and this is inexcusable. It would probably best best if you didn't follow Dave around and post defaming comments, for your sake.

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    It is to late BYE you have done this now 5+ years to Dave and myself. Slander from a person who names himself BYE-SLANDER subliminal messaging. Bi-stander? The innocent one. Good luck with playing the victim card.

    What Is Libel?


    Libel is published defamation of character, as opposed to spoken defamation of character, which is slander.

    Libel:
    • Exposes a person to hatred, shame, disgrace, contempt or ridicule.
    • Injures a person’s reputation or causes the person to be shunned or avoided.
    • Injures the person in his or her occupation.

    Examples might include accusing someone of having committed a heinous crime, or of having a disease that might cause them to be shunned.

    Two other important points:
    • Libel is by definition false. Anything that is provably true cannot be libelous.
    • “Published” in this context simply means that the libelous statement is communicated to someone other than the person being libeled. That can mean anything from an article that's photocopied and distributed to just a few people to a story that appears in a newspaper with millions of subscribers.
    Defenses Against Libel


    There are several common defenses a reporter has against a libel lawsuit:
    Last edited by BroMikey; 05-11-2020, 09:34 PM.

    Leave a comment:

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