ENLIGHTENED MAGNETISM (The Full Proof of Ken Wheeler's Theories)

[Ufopolitics]

Not a function of position?

Sorry Sputins. I tried.

Ufo,

I'd now say, no, I don't agree. See my now favorite reference to learn that the generated voltage in the coil is not a function of position.

1. A moving conductor cutting the lines of force (flux) of a constant magnetic field has a voltage induced in it.

page 13

bi

So, A MOVING CONDUCTOR IS NOT a Function of POSITION?

You are making ZERO sense.

[Ufopolitics]

Sorry Sputins. I tried.

Ufo,

So the above statement infers that the experiments shown before were not a function of time, therefore one would assume they were a function of space or position (referring to post #691). In that case, which was unclear in that diagram and post, which was a reason I didn't want to answer your question, I'd now say, no, I don't agree. See my now favorite reference to learn that the generated voltage in the coil is not a function of position.
page 13

bi

Bistander,

You are using every mistake I make in my writing, against what I am trying to convey, no matter if it is VERY LOGICAL and SIMPLE to understand it.

Of Course previous drawings were ALSO as a Function of Time, and based upon the Third Drawing anyone with a bit of a brain could conclude previous drawings were based on 1 X Time.

SO, I SHOULD HAVE WRITTEN THEN:

"INDUCTION AS A FUNCTION OF TIME VARIATION"


In the last Drawing Title...


So You could understand it...but still, you will not agree with it, right?

One thing I have noticed, You like the complex stuff, cause there you could find all your books where it tells you all the same thing it has been repeating over and over for hundred of years.

However, You stay away from the simple stuff...Uh?

So, when you do not want to "sound" like avoiding a simple topic...then you recourse to errors in the writing like this one I made...

Yeah, You look like finding errors....then denying to respond to something not so well put together...

I don't like this kind of recourse to approach a conversation with me..

And listen, You know there won't be anything simpler for me, as to ask you to leave here and let me post. Then go to Aaron if I have to...But I won't.

I just don't have all the time and patience to deal with you all the time.

And this is "one of this times"


Ufopolitics

[bistander]

Sucked in

Here is the same experiments shown before, but as a Function of Time...:

Sorry Sputins. I tried.

Ufo,

So the above statement infers that the experiments shown before were not a function of time, therefore one would assume they were a function of space or position (referring to post #691). In that case, which was unclear in that diagram and post, which was a reason I didn't want to answer your question, I'd now say, no, I don't agree. See my now favorite reference to learn that the generated voltage in the coil is not a function of position.

1. A moving conductor cutting the lines of force (flux) of a constant magnetic field has a voltage induced in it.

page 13

bi

[Ufopolitics]

I Love Simplicity...

Bistander,

Out of all experimenting and developing of Electrodynamics, and building complex machinery...I love to always refer to simplicity to start development of further very complex machines...after all this is exactly what has taken place in the History of Electrodynamic Machines Development over the years...

So, I really do not accept your position related to "standing by" when discussing such a simple way...that all it would take from you... is to turn on your scope...get a magnet and a coil and start observing results...there is nothing that would get closer to reality than any book on this planet.

Here is the same experiments shown before, but as a Function of Time Variation (Speed Increased)...:

[IMG][/IMG]

Above is the same magnetic field to coil spatial approach...but I am analyzing it related to Time.

On the right are all the different Sinewave results obtained when we increase speed up to 3X Time.

And as we could see, both peaks, negative and positive will increase as the sinewave period would be stretched by taking place in a shorter period of time.

All this very short and easy experiments could be verified true by any of you who have access to very simple means. And actually a scope will not be required as a good meter would do the job, just set it at low V capture.


Regards


Ufopolitics

EDIT 2: GRAPHIC REPAIRED AS TO ADD THE WORD "VARIATION" TO PREVIOUS JUST TIME, PLUS (SPEED INCREASED) ON TITLE

[bistander]

I'll stand by for a while

Now, Bistander, do you agree with above images?

Thanks for asking, Ufo. But I decline. Please refer to that most excellent article from your post#660.

http://www.energeticforum.com/redirect-to/?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Focw.nthu.edu.tw%2Focw%2Fupload%2F124%2Fnews%2F%5B%25E9%259B%25BB%25E5%258B%2595%25E6%25A9%259F%25E6%25A2%25B0L1b%25E8%25A3%259C%25E5%2585%2585%25E6%2595%2599%25E6%259D%2590%5DJohn%2520Wiley%2520%26%2520Sons%2C%2520Inc._PRINCIPLES%2520OF%2520OPERATION%2520OF%2520SYNCHRONOUS%2520MACHINES.pdf

In particular, section 1.5, pages 13-17. I thank you so much for bringing that to my attention. It is absolutely a fantastic treatise on Faraday's Law and Lenz. Very clear and concise even going into energy associated with those principles. Take note that all that applies equally to both motors and generators. Please refer all questions there as I would find myself quoting or paraphrasing the author addressing questions on basic machine theory.

Regards,

bi

[Ufopolitics]

Faraday Simple Air Core Coil and Magnetic Field

Below are Two Pages...regarding Faraday basic and simple experiment with an Air Core Coil versus a Magnetic Field.

POSITIVE INDUCTION

[IMG][/IMG]

Above Page I titled "Positive Induction", just because it is the simplest process whenever we start approaching a Magnetic Field to an Air Core Coil...generating a Full Positive Sine, meaning above Zero.

And the only difference from the 1831 experiment, is that on this images I am also adding a Sine Wave generation as the different steps take place...

Also the Two Red Circles depict the "Coil Pitch"


NEGATIVE INDUCTION

[IMG][/IMG]
Above series of Steps is whenever we start to EXTRACT Magnetic Field from Air Core Coil.

Comprehending Final Decay from Positive Cycle as Generating the Bottom Negative Sine Wave.


Now, Bistander, do you agree with above images?


Regards


Ufopolitics

EDIT 1 :ALL DIAGRAMS UPDATED WITH THE "FORGOTTEN TIME"...SORRY, MY BAD

[Ufopolitics]

Hi Ufo,

That "Machine" image represents a motor or a generator. That is why the author used the word "machine" instead of motor. And the source is your reference which you claim you always thoroughly investigate.

You have a misconception that there is a fundamental difference between the motor and generator in regards to field and armature interaction. There is not.

Bistander,

What makes you feel you always have the final and right answer?

Is it your learning from experimental work...or is it more inclined to whatever they have taught you?

I suggest we just leave it here. It's been interesting to discuss real (established or conventional) theory using solid references. But for Sputins' sake, please get back to the main topic.

Regards,

bi

Sorry, but nope, if you feel you are stubborn...I am MUCH stubborn than you, basically when I am holding on my end the real truth about all this wrong teaching.

It is essential that we get to a General Knowledge to basic EMF Induction from a Magnetic Field.

It is NOT gonna work when all your points of view differ with mine.

So, like I mentioned earlier, I am going to restart from scratch here, from the Fundamentals of EMF Induction from the simplest form...A Coil and a Magnetic Field (which could be Magnet or Electromagnet, for this purpose don't really matter)

So, it is JUST ABOUT THE MAGNETIC FIELD.

Next Post would open this Section here.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[bistander]

Machine

That "Machine" is a Motor and not a Generator.

Hi Ufo,

That "Machine" image represents a motor or a generator. That is why the author used the word "machine" instead of motor. And the source is your reference which you claim you always thoroughly investigate.

You have a misconception that there is a fundamental difference between the motor and generator in regards to field and armature interaction. There is not.

I suggest we just leave it here. It's been interesting to discuss real (established or conventional) theory using solid references. But for Sputins' sake, please get back to the main topic.

Regards,

bi

[Ufopolitics]

Good morning Ufo,

A couple a things on your last post which I wish to clear up.

Good morning Bistander,

I did no such thing. Last image is is from page 194, figure 4.22, cross section of a two-pole machine. Machine..... meaning generator or motor.

You and I, as many others here could be able to differentiate between the Stator Frame Configuration from a Motor and a Generator.

That "Machine" is a Motor and not a Generator.

Induction generators (as well as induction motors) are Asynchronous Machines, not Synchronous.

I was referring to Induction, as the Main issue in discussion here, so in general terms ALL are Induction Generators, because ALL of them are Induced a Current (EMF) from a Magnetic Field.

The main difference between Synchronous and Asynchronous machines is the Rotor Field speed versus the stator rotating field. Which is the Induced Field.

In Synchronous Machines the speed of both fields are in synchronicity.

In Asynchronous Machines the speed of both fields are Asynchronous.

Mutual inductance is a straw man tactic from you. Apparently it is the only thing you could find that shows a maximum at field and armature alignment so you threw it in when inductance was never even mentioned in our discussion. And seeing as how we have been dealing with DC excitation of the field, I fail to see how mutual inductance between the armature and field is pertinent.

No it was not...:

INDUCTANCE:

In electromagnetism and electronics, inductance is the property of an electrical conductor by which a change in current through it induces an electromotive force in both the conductor itself[1] and in any nearby conductors by mutual inductance.[1]

These effects are derived from two fundamental observations of physics: a steady current creates a steady magnetic field described by Oersted's law,[2] and a time-varying magnetic field induces an electromotive force (EMF) in nearby conductors, which is described by Faraday's law of induction.[3] According to Lenz's law,[4] a changing electric current through a circuit that contains inductance induces a proportional voltage, which opposes the change in current (self-inductance). The varying field in this circuit may also induce an EMF in neighbouring circuits (mutual inductance).

The term inductance was coined by Oliver Heaviside in 1886.[5] It is customary to use the symbol L for inductance, in honour of the physicist Heinrich Lenz.[6][7] In the SI system, the measurement unit for inductance is the henry, with the unit symbol H, named in honor of Joseph Henry, who discovered inductance independently of, but not before, Faraday.[8]

I have very clear ALL of these terms: "Inductance", "Induction", "Self-Induction" , "Inductor" and "Induced"...

Mutual Inductance is one form of EMF Induction transferred to a nearby coil,(more effectively face to face, or axes alignment) where nearby coil "reaction" is to oppose the mutual inductance with what is called the self inductance (Lenz).

Now the zero power and zero torque statements are directly from page 22 which I pasted into the post. Do you understand what a sine function is? Then it should be clear that my "writing" is not "completely wrong". There is even a graphic on page 22 showing the sine function.

After reading the above, it is clear that a Mutual Inductance would bring "iso facto" a Self Inductance or Lenz reversed reaction.

Do you think when Lenz is present Torque would be zero in a rotational mutual inductance operation?

Rotor speed (in RPM) = 120 * Frequency / Poles, where Frequency is in Hz and Poles is the number of main field poles in the machine. Speed in the synchronous machine is one of the easiest parameters as it is always proportional to the frequency (except during transients which is outside the scope of this discussion).

Regards,

bi

I already explained all of the above in the first part of this post on Synchronous versus Asynchronous speeds differences between Rotor and Stator Field.

I believe the best way to resume this is to go back to the simplest form of Induction back from Faraday roots...to refresh the basic parameters that gave birth to all the developments of Electric Generators up to now.

And that is what I will do next.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[bistander]

Reply

Good morning Ufo,

A couple a things on your last post which I wish to clear up.

Bistander,

Please try not to mix images from Synchronous MOTORS then apply them to Generators like your last image.

I did no such thing. Last image is is from page 194, figure 4.22, cross section of a two-pole machine. Machine..... meaning generator or motor.

Getting back to Synchronous Induction GENERATORS:

Induction generators (as well as induction motors) are Asynchronous Machines, not Synchronous.

Bistander,

What you are writing about Mutual Inductance and Zero Power, Zero Torque is completely wrong.

Mutual inductance is a straw man tactic from you. Apparently it is the only thing you could find that shows a maximum at field and armature alignment so you threw it in when inductance was never even mentioned in our discussion. And seeing as how we have been dealing with DC excitation of the field, I fail to see how mutual inductance between the armature and field is pertinent.

Now the zero power and zero torque statements are directly from page 22 which I pasted into the post. Do you understand what a sine function is? Then it should be clear that my "writing" is not "completely wrong". There is even a graphic on page 22 showing the sine function.

Basically realize that all these books relate to High Level Math in order to Calculate the Rotor Speeds versus the Static Induced Field Speeds (generating Coils), and as "default" operation of Synchronous Generator machines the Rotor Mechanical speed which is exactly as the Rotor Magnetic Field speed, is always behind the Induced EMF generated.

Rotor speed (in RPM) = 120 * Frequency / Poles, where Frequency is in Hz and Poles is the number of main field poles in the machine. Speed in the synchronous machine is one of the easiest parameters as it is always proportional to the frequency (except during transients which is outside the scope of this discussion).

Regards,

bi

[Ufopolitics]

Hi Ufo,

We weren't discussing mutual inductance and I don't see how it relates to our issue.

Please refer to the excellent reference from your post #660.

http://services.eng.uts.edu.au/cempe/subjects_JGZ/eet/eet_ch6.pdf

Bistander,

Please try not to mix images from Synchronous MOTORS then apply them to Generators like your last image. I understand very clear that in Motor action, this 90 degrees between "Armature" refers to Motor and Fields to Stators...so, yes, absolutely they need to be at 90 off phase in order to rotate.

Getting back to Synchronous Induction GENERATORS:

What you are writing about Mutual Inductance and Zero Power, Zero Torque is completely wrong.

Mutual Inductance is exactly when Lenz manifest.

Also You must realize that in any Synchronous Generator, the Rotor Magnetic Field by being spinning it induces also a Rotating Field in the Stator Generating Coils, where the "ideal" operation of this machines is to avoid for both rotating magnetic fields to coincide. So check for "Under-Excitation" as about "Over-Excitation" controls.

Torque is produced when the magnetic field of the dc rotor winding (aligned with the rotor axis) attempts to align with the rotating magnetic field of the three-phase ac stator winding.

Basically realize that all these books relate to High Level Math in order to Calculate the Rotor Speeds versus the Static Induced Field Speeds (generating Coils), and as "default" operation of Synchronous Generator machines the Rotor Mechanical speed which is exactly as the Rotor Magnetic Field speed, is always behind the Induced EMF generated.

Also, have in mind that the Induction Process takes place in Speed Angles from to, and what we are trying to focus basically here is on the Peak, Maximum Induced Values, versus rotor Directional Magnetic Axis and Stator Fields Directional Axis (Not the Induced Axis on the rotational Induced Field).

Regards


Ufopolitics

[bistander]

angle

I hope that now you could realize from above image and text, that Mutual Inductance Magnitude (L

Hi Ufo,

We weren't discussing mutual inductance and I don't see how it relates to our issue.

Please refer to the excellent reference from your post #660.

http://services.eng.uts.edu.au/cempe/subjects_JGZ/eet/eet_ch6.pdf

On page 22 (above), this:

δ can also be regarded as the angle between the rotor and stator rotating magnetic field

You can plainly see in the equations directly above that quote on page 22 that both torque and power are sine functions of that angle between the rotor field and the stator field. And that means that at zero angle or when aligned the torque and power are zero.

So alignment of the rotor and stator fields may result in maximum mutual inductance, but zero power and torque from the machine (both motor and generator modes).

I rest my case.

Well not quite. I just noticed your addition of Fourth Book on Synchronous Machines. And saw page 194, below. Couldn't be any clearer.



Regards,

bi

[Ufopolitics]

Added Values

Hi Ufo,

Oh yeah, your simple question:

The end turn connects the two coil sides (or conductors) such that the generated voltage in each adds so the "turn" voltage equals twice the "side" voltage. V(turn) = 2 * V(side). If you have N turns per coil, then V(coil) = 2 * V(side) * N. Or the generated voltage in the coil equals 2N times the individual conductor voltage.

Regards,

bi

Hello Bistander,

I wanted to keep this issue separated from previous post...

And, yes you are completely right!!...after I turned off my PC last night I review it and answer myself...you are right they could be added up. meaning, connected that is the way is done in every generator...lol

However, I will deal with this later as I am not still agreeing with joining this two conductors, since, according to the basic, original drawing, these two conductors events occurs at different times...so I will be making a Clock Analogy to that in order that we either both agree or disagree on that one later.

Right now the more important part of this discussion is on previous post.


Regards,


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Getting there...

Hello Bistander,

Yes, I did find that second great book...

Bistander, if you just lay the rotor linear spread bottom image from first diagram, and set it over your second drawing on Stator Linear Spread, aligning both magnetic axis...you will be showing the Mutual Inductance point...then you will get your answer and mine as well.

It is written in clear English, that the Rotor mmf (ladder pyramid) is equivalent to the sinusoidal emf induced in the stator(s), and in order to do that we must align magnetic axis from rotor to magnetic axis from stators in a linear fashion, where it could be seen better.

Until we both find an image where both magnetic axes (from stator and rotor) are shown, plus the corresponding explanation...we can not end or come up to a final result.

Unfortunately, after reading this three books, no one of them contains a clear image where both, stator and rotor are analyzed.

Fortunately I found this Fourth Book on Synchronous Machines, which even share must of previous books images...but then it has this particular image on page 43 plus I quoted its explanation on top and bottom of Image :

4.7.1 Coupled.Circuit Viewpoint

Consider the elementary smooth-air-gap machine of Fig. 4.34 with one winding on the stator and one on the rotor and with 0m being the mechanical angle between the axes of the two windings. These windings are distributed over a number of slots so that their mmf waves can be approximated by space sinusoids. In Fig. 4.34a the coil sides s,-s and r , - r mark the positions of the centers of the belts of conductors comprising the distributed windings. An alternative way of drawing these windings is shown in Fig. 4.34b, which also shows reference directions for voltages and currents. Here it is assumed that current in the arrow direction produces a magnetic field in the air gap in the arrow direction, so that a single arrow defines reference directions for both current and flux.

[IMG][/IMG]

The stator and rotor are concentric cylinders, and slot openings are neglected. Consequently, our elementary model does not include the effects of salient poles, which are investigated in later chapters. We also assume that the reluctances of the stator and rotor iron are negligible. Finally, although Fig. 4.34 shows a two-pole machine, we will write the derivations that follow for the general case of a multipole machine, replacing 0m by the electrical rotor angle (poles)

Based upon these assumptions, the stator and rotor self-inductances Lss and Lrr can be seen to be constant, but the stator-to-rotor mutual inductance depends on the electrical angle 0me between the magnetic axes of the stator and rotor windings.

The mutual inductance is at its positive maximum when 0me=0 or 2π*, is zero when 0me = 4-zr/2, and is at its negative maximum when 0me = +Jr. On the assumption of sinusoidal mmf waves and a uniform air gap, the space distribution of the air-gap flux wave is sinusoidal, and the mutual inductance will be of the form

Lsr(0me) =Lsr cos (0me)

where the script letter L denotes an inductance which is a function of the electrical angle 0me. The italic capital letter L denotes a constant value. Thus Lsr is the magnitude of the mutual inductance; its value when the magnetic axes of the stator and rotor are aligned (0me = 0).

And here is another image...from another book, where it shows the Mutual Axes Alignment or 0m=0 to Phase A (Mutual Inductance Maximum Value)

[IMG][/IMG]

I hope that now you could realize from above image and text, that Mutual Inductance Magnitude (L

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumference#/media/File:2pi-unrolled.gif

Hopefully this clears this issue and you can move on.

Regards,

bi

I hope so, I hope that now we could both reach the same conclusions.

Regards,

Ufopolitics

[bistander]

rotor stator

Hello Again,

This time I am reading another nice book about SYNCHRONOUS MACHINES.

48550 Electrical Energy Technology Chapter 6.Synchronous Machines

And in page 15 is this nice Image called:

circled in blue is generating a top positive value of +1.0circled in red is generating a top negative value of -1.0+1.0 -1-0 equals to? ...my grandson?

So we have been adding loops which sums a big zero there?

The end turn connects the two coil sides (or conductors) such that the generated voltage in each adds so the "turn" voltage equals twice the "side" voltage. V(turn) = 2 * V(side). If you have N turns per coil, then V(coil) = 2 * V(side) * N. Or the generated voltage in the coil equals 2N times the individual conductor voltage.

Regards,

bi