Is the Magnetic Field around a Wire Harvestable Free Energy?

[Ein~+ein]

On behalf of all other Renewable Energy forum members:


Rest assured, threads don't die. Scroll down and rate or subscribe to this thread if you wish. Quite often related discussions exist on other threads so you may want to search for a particular member's postings. Be aware that thread titles are often vague and don't always reflect how a discussion may evolve. For these reasons I'd suggest advanced searching for a string and/or multiple terms using inurl:http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/

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Your analogy of harnessing the air turbulence of a passing vehicle without affecting the vehicle does have a parallel in Leedskalnin's PMH but you may want to note this relationship between a conductor and its field:

Meissner Effect (of Superconductivity) - Wikipedia
When a superconductor is placed in a weak external magnetic field H, and cooled below its transition temperature, the magnetic field is ejected. The Meissner effect does not cause the field to be completely ejected but instead the field penetrates the superconductor but only to a very small distance, characterized by a parameter λ, called the London penetration depth, decaying exponentially to zero within the bulk of the material. The Meissner effect is a defining characteristic of superconductivity. For most superconductors, the London penetration depth is on the order of 100 nm.

The Meissner effect is sometimes confused with the kind of diamagnetism one would expect in a perfect electrical conductor: according to Lenz's law, when a changing magnetic field is applied to a conductor, it will induce an electric current in the conductor that creates an opposing magnetic field. In a perfect conductor, an arbitrarily large current can be induced, and the resulting magnetic field exactly cancels the applied field.

[mr.clean]

Forgive this naive question but is it true that the current in a wire is completely unaffected by work done by its exterior magnetic field? If so, is it not, at least theoretically possible, to harvest such field energy around HV transmission power lines and go off grid?

hehe technically if you could gather enough by putting a non sanctioned stepdown transformer onto the line, but just due to the fact its continuos wave EM induction, it could not possibly go OU, and would eventually be discovered from BEMF returned down the line

[J~wise]

I See your welcome and raise you a thank you

On behalf of all other Renewable Energy forum members:


Rest assured, threads don't die. Scroll down and rate or subscribe to this thread if you wish. Quite often related discussions exist on other threads so you may want to search for a particular member's postings. Be aware that thread titles are often vague and don't always reflect how a discussion may evolve. For these reasons I'd suggest advanced searching for a string and/or multiple terms using inurl:http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/

----------------------------------------------
Your analogy of harnessing the air turbulence of a passing vehicle without affecting the vehicle does have a parallel in Leedskalnin's PMH but you may want to note this relationship between a conductor and its field:

Meissner Effect (of Superconductivity) - Wikipedia
When a superconductor is placed in a weak external magnetic field H, and cooled below its transition temperature, the magnetic field is ejected. The Meissner effect does not cause the field to be completely ejected but instead the field penetrates the superconductor but only to a very small distance, characterized by a parameter λ, called the London penetration depth, decaying exponentially to zero within the bulk of the material. The Meissner effect is a defining characteristic of superconductivity. For most superconductors, the London penetration depth is on the order of 100 nm.

The Meissner effect is sometimes confused with the kind of diamagnetism one would expect in a perfect electrical conductor: according to Lenz's law, when a changing magnetic field is applied to a conductor, it will induce an electric current in the conductor that creates an opposing magnetic field. In a perfect conductor, an arbitrarily large current can be induced, and the resulting magnetic field exactly cancels the applied field.

Thanks for the warm invite, quick response, and the reassurance.
I am not new to renewable energy but i am new to the forum platform, so im not very familiar with the customs.

Do you know of anywhere I can get confirmation of the fact that it does or doesn't work such as a video or a step by step presentation. I have been going to do it myself with the understanding that it works, but the videos I was going to use as instructions have disappeared and it seems it is impossible to get information on it now, This forum is the only place i have found talking about it after hours of searching. Thanks again.

[jibbguy]

What the electric corporations consider collecting power using a coil some distance away from their overhead wires to be; is poorly done "Close Coupled Inductance". And most forms of that do create a load on the source (although it may be difficult to measure when the percentage of that load to the total power is very low, and the phase angle difference it creates buried behind noise).

We can argue whether it really does or not, but they do have science and experiments to back that claim, and people have been jailed for it (don't mess with them, you may get a worse sentence than someone who is guilty of a violent crime, they seem to be afraid of it and feel the need to make an example of folks they catch).

What is a lot more difficult to quantify or prove, is any detectable load from an RF source (such as using WiFi or cell towers as a source, purely "RF" with no coupling). There, the main question is whether the rectenna adversely affects other people's reception of the signal or not. Since so far all we have seen are ones in the micro- or low milli-watt ranges, it would not seem to matter too much. But i bet if they can prove that a rectenna creates a significant "shadow" area behind it, they will get them banned somehow (considering how RF bounces in varying degrees with all kinds of different building materials, it would be hard to prove that in the real world, especially a city). And there is always hillsides or a surface with nothing behind or under it but dirt.

BTW rectennas are not a new invention of the free energy genre (as some stuff i have seen would try to suggest), they are the basis of most kinds of RFID labeling and have been around for over 50 years commercially.

Remember we are talking about "boring old" transverse wave electricity, the Tesla or Dollard stuff assumes the use of "longitudinal wave" transmission which does appear to act very differently.

And there are some interesting things about Close Coupled Inductance that Marin Soljačić of MIT's "WiTricity" team have discovered, such as that it appears possible to get less than a "linear" total additive load using 2 or more receivers with one transmitting coil ( !! )

Coil in wall could wirelessly power multiple electronic devices

http://www.mit.edu/~soljacic/two_device_wet_APL.pdf

[logos]

Farmhand: Here's a simpler and safer experiment I saw on PESN that retains a field's residual magnetic attraction between 2 metal blocks long after the wire, briefly carrying a current, has been removed from a groove between their flush surfaces: Leedskalnin "Perpetual Motion Holder" (PMH) Bond Effect

Questions posed on PESN:
I'd be curious to know what the parameters of this phenomenon are, exploring such variables as:

Strength of the bond; force required to separate the blocks
Strength of the bond over time
Minimum current required
Minimum time required
Relationship between current, time and block size
Relationship between current, time, block and bond strength, or is it all-or-nothing?
Wire gage required
Relationship between wire gauge and block size
Different kinds of metals that can display the effect
Different shapes
Could it be used in series, one set bonded then bonded to another?
How far away from 'center' can the channel be and the effect still work?
Does the channel have to be straight?
It seems there could be a bunch of masters and Ph.D. degrees obtained from characterizing this effect, bringing it into mainstream Academia, redeeming it from the fringe-only present classification.

Maybe these parameters have been worked out somewhere. It wouldn't take a deep budget to study/characterize this stuff. Garage tinkers could easily do it.

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It brings to mind Dave45's coil-in-ice experiment which he intends to repeat. Freezing water to -4*C (it's most molecularly contracted state) maximizes it's electrical conductivity but with only one free electron, it can't become magnetized, can it?

@ Ernst: Thanks for the laugh--you remind me of of Billy Bob Thornton in J. Jarmouche's 'Deadman' (with Johnny Depp). You're going to have to quote the law that says 'Thou shalt not come any closer than X'Y" to said power lines!"

according to ed, we have our understandings all wrong when it comes to electricity.

i have watched the ep dollard lectures and it seems like he too is implying that electricity move in fact along the wire and not through it.

if that is the case, and this is just speculation, i totally think that it could be harnessed, but the question is how do you harness it so that you canmake it work efficiently.

[logos]

Ahh I see, the PMH, funnily enough I don't see the PMH's ability to hold its
keeper on any different to putting a pin in a "D shackle", unless i'm missing
something the PMH doesn't actually lift anything over a distance, vertical or
otherwise, so the keeper is kinda just like a pin in a shackle.

Will other Ferris objects hold to a PMH with it's keeper locked ? Is there any way
to make a PMH and it's keeper produce an output ?

I don't see the thing holding up a weight as output work. A bench can do that.

Cheers

hey farmhand you are absolutly right. the whole idea of teh pmh is corrupted because ed gave us the example to show that it does work. the real trick is to figure out how you can make it do real work.

[Dave45]

I see the magnetic field as more of a carrier of energy, the electric field runs ninety degree's to the magnetic field,
If we look at the PMH as long as the magnetic field is not broke the electric field continues in free space and the magnetic component flows in the iron, but when the magnetic field is broken the electric field collapses into the coils and will light an led.
If we had a toroid where the magnetic field could continue to flow we should be able to pull energy from the electric field and as long as the magnetic field continues uninterrupted the electric field should pull from the ambient.
I think Steve Mark was doing exactly that, his top toroid was a PMH and he pulled from the electric field with the bottom toroid,
If this cannot be accomplished then we need to look into radiation, I would rather stay with the possibility of pulling energy from the ambient for now.
Magnets pull energy from the ambient everyday thats how we are powering our homes now, every generator is using permanent or electromagnets to pull energy from the ambient.

[Dave45]

I think the problem is and has always been bemf the electric field runs counter to the applied current and when the coil is pulsed it collapses into the coil changing its polarity and effectively stopping the magnetic field (changing its direction as well) this stops us from creating the flywheel effect we need to pull from the ambient.
Tesla used the bemf switching, it works well in an ac system but changes the magnetic fields direction this is why a transformer shows no continuous directional magnetic field it is switching every cycle which works well with bemf.

[Duncan]

magnetic/electrostatic ? either way It's being used

Light tubes lite up under powerlines without plugs? EMF Cra - YouTube

[Ein~+ein]

Do you know of anywhere I can get confirmation of the fact that it does or doesn't work such as a video or a step by step presentation.

If you're referring to my original thread question, look up BEMF (back electromagnetic force) and Lenz's Law both here and elsewhere. A word of warning: don't take what you see on YouTube as evidence of anything other than someone's desire to get views however I've seen computer animations that present electromagnetic and other physics concepts.

[J~wise]

If you're referring to my original thread question, look up BEMF (back electromagnetic force) and Lenz's Law both here and elsewhere. A word of warning: don't take what you see on YouTube as evidence of anything other than someone's desire to get views however I've seen computer animations that present electromagnetic and other physics concepts.

Ok thanks, but I dont just go with what i see on youtube but this guy had video of his readings (which could be faked, but i belived him). many things that tesla had invented if their was a youtube of his time would have been viewed as a hoax if posted. Again thanks for the reply and i will follow your advice.

[J~wise]

I appreciate the quick replies I have gotten, I really do. I know that you get a voltage when you subject a magnet wire winding to a magnetic field around a wire that is carrying current, but I don't know if it effects the power needed to send the power down the line. If there is anybody who has the material laying around to test it and will let me know their findings I would be very appreciative. As I said I have scoured the internet and I can't find anything on the topic now. If I had all the material needed and a day of free time to test it I would but I don't and imagine there are people on this forum more equip for it than I. If there is a way to harness it every so often over a length of wire it changes what the actual current available in every application is, which is a big deal especially in alternative power systems. Thanks again.

[Duncan]

I haven't tried this .. but for consideration ..

hoax ? no way of knowing without trying it!
gogreenbuildyourownmotionlesssolidstatefreeenergy. flv - YouTube

[gyula]

Hi Duncan,

Running Lamp B is not free (refer to schematic in video at 2:00) because it just takes away some current from Lamp A, this explains the small current decrease when the second lamp is connected.
Basically Lamp B is inductively coupled into the main circuit of Lamp A by the current transformer. You can interpret this as the current transformer transforms and connects the impedance (V/I) of Lamp B in SERIES with Lamp A, so depending on the impedances involved the power taken from the metered mains outlet is divided between the two lamps.
Obviously, in case he would have used two identical lamps, drawing normally well under 1 Amper (CFLs do) then he would have got half brightness for both lamps the moment he connected Lamp B.
But he used an appliance which drew 10.9 Amper and then he connected CFL Lamp B to the output of the current transformer and current in the primary circuit went down to 10.1 to 10.2 Ampers, this reducement in current consumption happened because the current transformer connected the transformed impedance of the CFL bulb in series with the appliance: two devices in series were fed from the same mains outlet. If he had checked the AC voltage across the appliance which drew originally the 10.9 Amper, he would have found the AC voltage got reduced a few percent the moment he connected the CFL lamp.
I hope this setup is understandable now, the claim "free electricity" is not correct, you have 'sharing' of power consumptions between series connected appliances.

Gyula

[Duncan]

Hi Duncan,

Running Lamp B is not free (refer to schematic in video at 2:00) because it just takes away some current from Lamp A, this explains the small current decrease when the second lamp is connected.
Basically Lamp B is inductively coupled into the main circuit of Lamp A by the current transformer. You can interpret this as the current transformer transforms and connects the impedance (V/I) of Lamp B in SERIES with Lamp A, so depending on the impedances involved the power taken from the metered mains outlet is divided between the two lamps.
Obviously, in case he would have used two identical lamps, drawing normally well under 1 Amper (CFLs do) then he would have got half brightness for both lamps the moment he connected Lamp B.
But he used an appliance which drew 10.9 Amper and then he connected CFL Lamp B to the output of the current transformer and current in the primary circuit went down to 10.1 to 10.2 Ampers, this reducement in current consumption happened because the current transformer connected the transformed impedance of the CFL bulb in series with the appliance: two devices in series were fed from the same mains outlet. If he had checked the AC voltage across the appliance which drew originally the 10.9 Amper, he would have found the AC voltage got reduced a few percent the moment he connected the CFL lamp.
I hope this setup is understandable now, the claim "free electricity" is not correct, you have 'sharing' of power consumptions between series connected appliances.

Gyula